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Invisiblemagicbastard
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Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 791
Question about the LHC
    #8917706 - 09/12/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I saw something and the discover channel a few years ago I believe about the LHC, that they were trying to make anti-mater or that it could make anti-mater? I remember some old guy on the show saying something along the lines that the result of the molecules colliding could result in oppositely charged atoms and thats what anti-mater is considered? Please feel free to correct any of this gibberish. I want it.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: magicbastard]
    #8917865 - 09/12/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, all the major colliders have been making anti-matter for quite some time now. 

Anti-matter is just like normal matter but it has an opposite charge.  When normal matter and anti-matter collide they annihilate each other and produce radiation.

Anit-matter is the most expensive stuff on earth, it take millions of dollars just to make a few particles.

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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: magicbastard]
    #8919316 - 09/12/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Despite its exotic nature, antimatter is starting to find its way out of the lab and into practical applications, eg. see PET scans. Soon it won't seem that "exotic" at all, although creating enough to use for fuel or weapons is apparently still be a ways off.

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Invisiblearchenemy
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ythan]
    #8927080 - 09/14/08 03:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

yeah  PET scans use anti-mater, i could see it being used as a weapon...a very very powerful weapon.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: archenemy]
    #8927764 - 09/14/08 08:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i could see it being used as a weapon...a very very powerful weapon.

That is a long way off, I think...you would have to make about a kilogram of the stuff in order to make an explosion like a 20 megaton thermonuclear bomb.

A kilo of antimatter is a lot of antimatter! I think you'll have troubles making enough of it so as to be useful, or making it fast enough to be useful, or storing it for any amount of time.

Far easier to just use a couple big h-bombs :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinemilkman
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8927831 - 09/14/08 09:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

what would an anti matter bomb be like h-bombs are real fiery right? nukes are you know nuclear what would anti matter be like in an explosion?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: milkman]
    #8928180 - 09/14/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

An anti-matter explosion would be about as radioactive as you can get :wink:

Lots of gamma rays and fast-moving particles are produced (all rather bad).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8928232 - 09/14/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Fast-moving particles?  That would be from gamma rays interacting with surrounding material right, not from the original bomb?

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8928562 - 09/14/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
An anti-matter explosion would be about as radioactive as you can get :wink:

Lots of gamma rays and fast-moving particles are produced (all rather bad).




That leads me to believe that using antimatter bombs would be considered a war crime, since they are worse than the worst dirty bomb when it comes to radiation, and giving cancer to anyone not behind a lead shield or a few miles of rock (thank god the Earth is round).

On the other hand, when it comes to totally fucking destroying something, an antimatter bomb would kick an h-bombs ass.  While an h-bomb might just spread an object in the epicenter across several miles of terrain in all directions, an antimatter bomb would wipe from existence the amount of matter equivalent to its mass.


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Offlinemilkman
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ferris]
    #8929208 - 09/14/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

so its like hitting the delete button on whatever is in its radius

sounds odd, where does it go lol

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Offlinesupra
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: milkman]
    #8929225 - 09/14/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

all the mass turns into energy, as you see, energy and mass are interchangable.

peace

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: milkman]
    #8929237 - 09/14/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Like mentioned before, it becomes high energy photons (light) in the gamma wave spectrum (think three-dimensional laser bomb (?)).


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OfflineRuNE
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ferris]
    #8929352 - 09/14/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That sounds pretty awesome.  And scary.  :eek:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8929370 - 09/14/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Fast-moving particles?  That would be from gamma rays interacting with surrounding material right, not from the original bomb?




I was under the impression that only leptons annihilate directly into gamma rays. As electrons don't count for much of the mass in matter, they wouldn't account for much of the devastating effects.

You should take a look at all the weird fast-moving particles (relativistic) that come out of a proton-antiproton annihilation.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ferris]
    #8929381 - 09/14/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
an antimatter bomb would wipe from existence the amount of matter equivalent to its mass.




Which would, to be realistic, at most several kilograms of anti-matter. You neither need nor can afford much more :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8929471 - 09/14/08 04:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

But there's no cooler way to make sure nobody reads that hard drive


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8929942 - 09/14/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:You should take a look at all the weird fast-moving particles (relativistic) that come out of a proton-antiproton annihilation.


They must be other particle anti particle pairs right?  Because in the end it should all go to photons.

edit - there is no wikipedia page for it!

Edited by Qubit (09/14/08 06:48 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8930004 - 09/14/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> Which would, to be realistic, at most several kilograms of anti-matter.

A bit less than that, assuming you want the earth to still be around when done.  In nuclear fission/fusion, only a fraction of the fuel is actually converted to energy rather than the doubling you get with matter/antimatter.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8930136 - 09/14/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
They must be other particle anti particle pairs right?  Because in the end it should all go to photons.




No...there are some electrons produced, as well as a multitude of neutrinos (where most of the energy goes, actually).


Quote:

Seuss said:
A bit less than that, assuming you want the earth to still be around when done.  In nuclear fission/fusion, only a fraction of the fuel is actually converted to energy rather than the doubling you get with matter/antimatter.




Only a fraction of the matter/antimatter would be converted into useful energy (useful from a destruction point of view) - most of the energy is carried off by neutrinos.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8930742 - 09/14/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Wouldnt that violate conservation laws though?  I dont know this stuff too well, but that doesn't seem right...

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Offlineisaacein
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Registered: 05/21/08
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: magicbastard]
    #8930932 - 09/14/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I suggest you guys check out this live-fed webcam of the LHC :

http://www.lhcfeed.com/


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Formula: 0

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8933710 - 09/15/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Wouldnt that violate conservation laws though?  I dont know this stuff too well, but that doesn't seem right...




How would it violate any laws?

The conservation laws state only that the "energy + matter" going in to the reaction be EQUAL to the "energy + matter" coming out of the reaction. Remember that neutrinos have a very insignificant mass, and electrons have just a little bit more mass...so to have a proton and antiproton annihilate each other can result in quite a number of neutrinos and a few electrons along side those gamma photons.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8934518 - 09/15/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, should have been more specific.  I mean conservation of charge, lepton and baryon numbers.  It has to put out anti particles that will also annihilate to jive with conservation laws.  Unless Im missing something...

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8934620 - 09/15/08 05:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't that what a pion is? A quark-antiquark pair?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8934638 - 09/15/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

From wiki:

Quote:

Over 99.9% of the mass of neutral antimatter is accounted for by antiprotons and antineutrons. Their annihilation with protons and neutrons is a complicated process. A proton-antiproton pair can annihilate into a number of charged and neutral relativistic pions. Neutral pions, in turn, decay almost immediately into gamma rays; charged pions travel a few tens of meters and then decay further into muons and neutrinos. Finally, the muons decay into electrons and more neutrinos. Most of the energy (about 60%) is carried away by neutrinos, which have almost no interaction with matter and thus escape into outer space.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon#Effects_of_antimatter_detonation


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: trendal]
    #8934710 - 09/15/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

They must mean positrons and electrons (sometimes the distinction is glossed over).  Because you start with zero charge and zero lepton number and end up with charge and non zero-lepton?

Well, Im satisfied now that conservation is intact.

Its interesting that most of the energy is carried away in neutrinos.  Need to make the bomb out of straight positrons then.  :grin:

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OfflineHematite
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8935869 - 09/15/08 08:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

How do you store positrons?

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Hematite]
    #8935921 - 09/15/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

A strong negative magnetic feild?? :shrug:


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OfflineHematite
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ferris]
    #8935941 - 09/15/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Or some kind of exotic superconductor?

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Hematite]
    #8936022 - 09/15/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No, hes right.  In a magnetic 'bottle'.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8936338 - 09/15/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Now thats what I call a scary nuclear bomb! One that goes off if its switched off :awesome:

The A-bomb dropped over Hiroshima was armed aboard the plane with barometric ignition during flight. If the plane had dropped below a certain altitude it would've gone off.

Nukes pwn antimatter where it comes to budget. One kiloton of BOOM



requires 20 grams of Lithium Deuteride or 55 grams of Uranium 235. The LiD costs about 50 bucks.


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Omnicyclion.org
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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Asante]
    #8936392 - 09/15/08 10:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:




HA!

Hopefully they would design something a bit more fool proof than that, like with real magnets rather than electromagnets, or backup power sources, etc


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ferris]
    #8936674 - 09/15/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It would probably be 'better' as a space based delivery system, either for ship to ship or ship to planet.  That way it would be relativly isolated.  Perhaps there are space faring civilizations waging war with them right now...  or maybe not. 

I wonder how far out we could detect some alien anti-matter warfare or experiments, and if it would be distinguishable from noise?

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OfflineIdiot
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8936793 - 09/15/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This has been incredibly interesting.  I wish I could chime in but I know nothing of particle physics.

:nothingtoadd:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Asante]
    #8937646 - 09/16/08 04:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> The A-bomb dropped over Hiroshima was armed aboard the plane with barometric ignition during flight. If the plane had dropped below a certain altitude it would've gone off.

Not true.

It (little boy) was initiated by radar altimeter.  Two of the four radar triggers had to agree before a detonation was initiated.  The barometric system was a backup to ensure safety, and could not initiate the detonation (it could only prevent it).  There was also a timer to ensure that a detonation could not happen until the bomb had fallen for at least 15 seconds.

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: RuNE]
    #8937772 - 09/16/08 05:56 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RuNE said:
That sounds pretty awesome.  And scary.  :eek:




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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8937787 - 09/16/08 06:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
It would probably be 'better' as a space based delivery system, either for ship to ship or ship to planet.  That way it would be relativly isolated.  Perhaps there are space faring civilizations waging war with them right now...  or maybe not. 

I wonder how far out we could detect some alien anti-matter warfare or experiments, and if it would be distinguishable from noise?




suppose extra terrestrials DID come here seeking war, i wonder what level of weaponry they would have and whether or not it would shock them if we lobbed an antimatter missile up their asses?  :smirk:


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OfflineScek
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8941827 - 09/16/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Lo Dis me first post.
Aside
A scientist working on bringing the whole relativity thing into one mathematical formula happened to do so.
Can't remember it but it was so clean and precise as well as beautiful (In a mathematician kinda way!) He reflected on it extensively.
He realized it had "Two" Solutions and both were Right.
After considerable deliberation, He conceived the theory of another universe
BUT Exactly Opposite to ours in every way.
So became the first thought possibility of ANTIMATTER.
      Most out of box.
More later SCEK (Like Oil Sheik)

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Scek]
    #8942089 - 09/17/08 12:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> A scientist

Paul Dirac


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Offlinetripp23
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Seuss]
    #8942375 - 09/17/08 01:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

does anybody know what will happen if a proton is split in half?? of course we all know the regular atom being split but what about the smaller particles?? this technology is nutz!  People say that the smallest particle known to man now is the atom.. but wtf about the protons and electrons??


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: tripp23]
    #8942852 - 09/17/08 05:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

People say that the smallest particle known to man now is the atom.. but wtf about the protons and electrons??

Electrons are point particles, meaning they aren't made of anything else (we think).

Protons and neutrons are made up of smaller particles called 'quarks' (they each have three of them).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: tripp23]
    #8943360 - 09/17/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

People say that the smallest particle known to man now is the atom..



Man, I hope you didnt learn that in school...

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: DieCommie]
    #8943627 - 09/17/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

People say that the smallest particle known to man now is the atom..



Man, I hope you didnt learn that in school...




That's what they taught at my elementary school.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Question about the LHC [Re: Ferris]
    #8944605 - 09/17/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> That's what they taught at my elementary school.

Socialist education at its best.  :grin:


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