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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916344 - 09/12/08 01:36 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What in this fucked up world does that have to do with anything?




Am I going too fast for you?

Brain on substance A = epiphany

Brain on substance B = getting wasted (or whatever)

Where is the evidence that substance A has greater value in uncovering anything at all other than your opinion?


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916359 - 09/12/08 01:44 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

OMG

I think we have a  :penis:  fight on our hands.

Who will be the victor????


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Word to your mom.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916364 - 09/12/08 01:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Please explain how a brain with it's normal functioning disrupted tells us anything at all.

What about a brain on datura or whiskey, what glimpse does this give us?




My point is, a normally functioning brain doesn't tell us any more about "truth" than one on DMT, datura or whiskey. 
Having normal brain function certainly helps in day-to-day living, as far as the grind goes, but if people can find some meaning in "otherworldly" experiences, that's cool with me.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916366 - 09/12/08 01:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
a series of puerile attempts at being clever?




Been biting at my heels ever since I arrived. :smirk:

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916372 - 09/12/08 01:51 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Getting drunk does not uncover to me that I know little.  Rather, it inflates me to pompous sizes, making me think that I know.

Psychedelics uncover to me that I know little. 

What was known before the trip is still known after the trip, but how this knowledge is seen changes.  It has little to do with gaining new knowledge.  Unless you consider self-awareness a form of knowledge.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916380 - 09/12/08 01:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Unless you consider self-awareness a form of knowledge.




Ooo. I do!


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Word to your mom.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8916385 - 09/12/08 01:56 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Shhh!

You blew our cover!

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916388 - 09/12/08 01:57 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A major objection to physicalism is that it cannot explain the existence of consciousness.



No current philosophical viewpoint adequately explains consciousness, so  as usual, you are making a straw man.

Quote:

Since consciousness indisputably exists (as shown by the fact that you are now conscious of reading this) physicalists can only assert that somehow consciousness "emerges" in "sufficiently complex" physical systems from the atoms, subatomic particles and electromagnetic radiation which is all that a physicalist allows to be real.



Big Blue, the computer chess master, has been said to be seemingly conscious and uncannily intuitive by some of the best human players in the world. This certainly points towards complexity, memory and processing power to having emergent properties.

Quote:

But to label it in this way is not to explain how this "emergence" could possibly occur.



Let me really try to grok just WTF you are trying to say: Because phsyicalists cannot currently explain every single facet of the universe, (even though they have given us this extraordinary means of communication and marvel upon marvel) their viewpoint is somehow lacking?

This lame argument is taken in whole cloth from Biblical Creationists.


Quote:

Physicalists can talk as much as they like about neural structures, resonant patterns of brain activity and the like, but in fact they have no explanation for the "emergence" of consciousness from "complex interconnections of physical entities within the brain."



And you do, correct?

Quote:

This is actually an article of faith, comparable to Christians' faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.



Yet another fallacy: appeal to emotion. There is no similarity whatsoever.

Do you have anything of substance to share? Anything?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/12/08 02:34 AM)

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916389 - 09/12/08 01:58 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

That was a joke...

Just a joke...

I still don't know.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916398 - 09/12/08 02:02 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

So a tripper believes he knows less than a non-tripper? Even though many trippers will totally disagree with you, but you are the self-appointed expert...

And of course, you have contradicted yourself in saying that DMT trippers know more about alternate realities than non-trippers

It is very difficult to follow your logic.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916432 - 09/12/08 02:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No current philosophical viewpoint adequately explains consciousness, so  as usual, you are making a strawman.

Physicalists tend to think they can explain consciousness.  When it is obvious it cannot be explained, because it just is.  I am conscious, no words will show an ant how this is.

Big Blue, the computer chessmaster, has been said to be seemingly conscious and ubcabbily intuitive by some of the best human players in the world. This certainly points towards complexity, memory and processing power to having emergent properties.

Totally irrelevant.

Let me really try to grok just WTF you are trying to say: Because phsyicalists cannot currently explain every single facet of the universe, (even though they have given us this extraordinary means of communication and marvel upon marvel) thger viewpoint is somehow lacking?

That is exactly not what I am trying to say.  "Physicalists" are imbalanced in that they depend solely on explanation to provide understanding of consciousness.  They totally disregard such altered states, and how they play a role in our understanding of consciousness.

Quote:

Physicalists can talk as much as they like about neural structures, resonant patterns of brain activity and the like, but in fact they have no explanation for the "emergence" of consciousness from "complex interconnections of physical entities within the brain."



And you do, correct?

It was never assumed that I did.  I am consciousness.  No explanation can sufficiently show this.

This is actually an article of faith, comparable to Christians' faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Yet another fallacy: appeal to emotion. There is no similarity whatsoever.


This is an article about how physicalists contain so much faith in their ability to explain and know consciousness.  Consciousness IS.  I am conscious, how can an explanation show this?

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916436 - 09/12/08 02:19 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Orgone, this is for you.



--------------------
Word to your mom.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8916439 - 09/12/08 02:20 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So a tripper believes he knows less than a non-tripper? Even though many trippers will totally disagree with you, but you are the self-appointed expert...




I was actually speaking for myself :wink:

But generally, I would assume that those who have "broken through" adopt more of a Socratic POV.

Quote:

And of course, you have contradicted yourself in saying that DMT trippers know more about alternate realities than non-trippers




How can a non-tripper know DMT space if he has not experienced it? :confused: I'm not following your logic.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8916458 - 09/12/08 02:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No rest in P&S.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916462 - 09/12/08 02:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Actually I'm quite tired, and I have to wake up early to get some homework done.

But stick it out my man. The troops need you!


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8916466 - 09/12/08 02:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

After my never ending debate with Veritas these past few days, I should be dead.

Good night !

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916483 - 09/12/08 02:36 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The Grudge

      Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity.
      Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
      Desperate to control all and everything.
      Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

      Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
      Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end.
      Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
      Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

      Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

      Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
      Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end.
      Saturn ascends, comes round again.
      Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.

      Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity.
      Calculate what you will or will not tolerate.
      Desperate to control all and everything.
      Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

      Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
      Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper.

      Defining, confining, sinking deeper. Controlling, defining, and we're sinking deeper.

      Saturn comes back around to show you everything
      Let's you choose what you will not see and then
      Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
      Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.

      Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
      Drags you down like a stone to
      Consume you till you choose to let this go.
      Choose to let this go.

      Give away the stone. Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
      Give away the stone. Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold.

      Let go.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916489 - 09/12/08 02:39 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What a barn-burner! :lol:

I can see where you're coming from SyntheticMInd. "Physicalism" adherents as you call them often sound like they're downplaying the mysteries of consciousness, which are vast, in favor of a cut-and-dry minimalist explanation.

But like OC said, there is no alternative externalized world view that really offers more in terms of demonstrable or useful understanding.

There are millions of worldviews that may offer you greater personal understanding, and it is your task to find or create one. There really are no rules for this process outside of the ones you feel compelled to obey.

The disavowal of "physicalism" seems to stem from a distaste at what sometimes appears to be a know-it-all attitude exhibited by rationalists. Doesn't mean it's a "false" world view, or that rationalists even are know-it-alls.

Edited by Tchan909 (09/12/08 02:44 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: deranger]
    #8916498 - 09/12/08 02:43 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness IS.  I am conscious, how can an explanation show this?




Disease just is. How can one explain it?

The sun just is. How can one explain it?

Lightning just happens. How can one explain it?

Hey, this is fun! :birthday: Useless, but fun.

Retarded threads just are...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Physicalism: A False View of the World [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8916500 - 09/12/08 02:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Orgone, this is for you.






An actual point being made would do me more good than being crushed to death by a polar bear.


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