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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Daishi]
    #8923546 - 09/13/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well, maybe you should read some of those criticisms, because when you're supporting a widely unpopular and highly theoretical economic theory, you should at least have it's basic effects down straight; as opposed to making far out promises.

You don't even propose how much and in what sectors you would cut taxes, so I can't even begin to guess where you're going with this.  If you want to make big cuts in the military, I'm with ya though.  The whole stable money supply thing doesn't sound that bad either on the surface, although I admit I don't even come close to understanding its intricacies.


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OfflineDaishi
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Ferris]
    #8923632 - 09/13/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
Well, maybe you should read some of those criticisms, because when you're supporting a widely unpopular and highly theoretical economic theory, you should at least have it's basic effects down straight; as opposed to making far out promises.

You don't even propose how much and in what sectors you would cut taxes, so I can't even begin to guess where you're going with this.  If you want to make big cuts in the military, I'm with ya though.  The whole stable money supply thing doesn't sound that bad either on the surface, although I admit I don't even come close to understanding its intricacies.




So your claim that no economist supports a fee based (i.e. free) economic system is wrong.


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Man has to be man--by choice; he has to hold his life as a value--by choice; he has to learn to sustain it--by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—-by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Daishi]
    #8923648 - 09/13/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

and there are scientists that believe in god, so what?


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OfflineDaishi
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Ferris]
    #8923676 - 09/13/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
and there are scientists that believe in god, so what?




Oh maybe you should be more careful with your claims.


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Man has to be man--by choice; he has to hold his life as a value--by choice; he has to learn to sustain it--by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—-by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Daishi]
    #8923714 - 09/13/08 01:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I like to keep a free form when making arguments, which is fine, because I argue with a flexible mind.  I'm not unwilling to hear your ideas on different approaches to libertarianism.  Any economic theory can be made to work in practice, but the truth though is that although your goal is to increase your freedom, that when libertarian ideas are applied to the real world, there are unintended consequences that require totalitarian enforcement.  Communism and countless other economic ideas throughout history have run into the same issues.  If you really want to leave your mark on society, come up with an administrative system that could regulate a free market society effectively while maintaining an optimized level of freedom to the individual.  The more complex the economy, the more difficult the task.  We've come a long way since the beginnings of trade.


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OfflineDaishi
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Ferris]
    #8923747 - 09/13/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
I like to keep a free form when making arguments, which is fine, because I argue with a flexible mind.  I'm not unwilling to hear your ideas on different approaches to libertarianism.  Any economic theory can be made to work in practice, but the truth though is that although your goal is to increase your freedom, that when libertarian ideas are applied to the real world, there are unintended consequences that require totalitarian enforcement.  Communism and countless other economic ideas throughout history have run into the same issues.  If you really want to leave your mark on society, come up with an administrative system that could regulate a free market society effectively while maintaining an optimized level of freedom to the individual.  The more complex the economy, the more difficult the task.  We've come a long way since the beginnings of trade.




But it's a moral issue, not just an economic. Even if you somehow proved that prices would be lower by forcing my money out of my hands that is a far cry from justifying stealing on a moral level. I mean hell, if we got together and robbed a millionaire prices would be lower for us but that doesn't mean it is a moral act.

And regardless of how complex economies become the basic fact is unless you actually have something to back money up it isn't worth a damn thing. Unless you have rational, productive members creating objects of trade there is nothing to trade with. That is a basic fact of economics, and there is no avoiding it no matter how sophisticated your arguments may be.


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Man has to be man--by choice; he has to hold his life as a value--by choice; he has to learn to sustain it--by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—-by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Daishi]
    #8923814 - 09/13/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'd say that if the money is spent on things that all people benefit from, that it resolves most moral and ethical concerns.  In particular, government monies typically go towards things that people want and need, but don't have the capacity as an individual to purchase.  Is there a particular government expense that you are referring to with this moral argument?

To your second argument, it is clearly wrong, since money does indeed have value, since we are able to purchase goods and services with it.  I've never offered the dollar equivalent of the price for a good or service and been refused.  In fact, I've never been asked to pay in anything else, except in nominal circumstances.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Daishi]
    #8923829 - 09/13/08 02:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Daishi said:
Well Milton Friedman, who has a Nobel prize in economics thinks it is a good idea.





this guy got one and all he does it talk shit about carbon credits
and scares people into buying them, seems like economics to me


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8923838 - 09/13/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I was talking about the economics of carbon before Al made it cool  :snub:


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Invisiblepinkfloydms
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Ferris]
    #8923853 - 09/13/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

AL gore is an idiot, and global warming is bullshit.


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so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8924769 - 09/13/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> this guy (Al Goreda) got one and all he does it talk shit about carbon credits and scares people into buying them, seems like economics to me

Not to mention, he owns one of the largest companies that sells carbon credits.  What a system!  He pays himself to remain carbon neutral.  :rolleyes:


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Daishi]
    #8924815 - 09/13/08 05:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Daishi said:
Quote:

Ferris said:
and there are scientists that believe in god, so what?




Oh maybe you should be more careful with your claims.




Maybe you should read more than just Friedman and Rand.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Seuss]
    #8924909 - 09/13/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> this guy (Al Goreda) got one and all he does it talk shit about carbon credits and scares people into buying them, seems like economics to me

Not to mention, he owns one of the largest companies that sells carbon credits.  What a system!  He pays himself to remain carbon neutral.  :rolleyes:




Carbon credits are effectively pointless unless mandated by the government, I admit.  The company you refer to, Generation Investment Management, which is chaired and partially owned by Gore (I couldn't find stats on compensation/%ownership), is just a stock investment company.  In fact, I couldn't find anything on their site about selling carbon credits at all, leading me to believe that it was just a gimmick for a company that invests in "green" stocks.  Some of the stocks I see in their portfolio are questionably green, but the portfolio is exceeding benchmarks.  So I see no reason why Gore shouldn't be paid for running a successful business, especially while supposedly restricting its business decisions to "moral" choices.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8925075 - 09/13/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> So I see no reason why Gore shouldn't be paid for running a successful business, especially while supposedly restricting its business decisions to "moral" choices.

Not what I meant.  He claims that he is 'carbon neutron' because he buys carbon credits to offset the pollution that he produces.  What he leaves out is that he buys those carbon credits from the company that he chairs and (partially) owns.  Rather than making the sacrifices he asks from the rest of us, he does a slight of hand, buying his own pollution.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Seuss]
    #8925164 - 09/13/08 07:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with you there.  I don't think his intent is deception however.  I think he is providing a mock example of an effort towards a larger goal, because clearly, the goal behind the concept isn't to become a "carbon neural" individual, since it's not technically possible at this time for everyone on earth to achieve that goal, but rather to provide financial incentives (de-centives?) against pollution.

You could take the more negative view that it is just a deflection of criticism.  What more can the man do?  Bomb some power plants?  Commandeer some rain forest?  Count me in, sounds like a party


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Seuss]
    #8925224 - 09/13/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

>Rather than making the sacrifices he asks from the rest of us, he does a slight of hand, buying his own pollution.

He's still buying carbon credits, so he is still reducing his impact on the environment - it makes little difference who he buys them from.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: zouden]
    #8927275 - 09/14/08 04:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> He's still buying carbon credits, so he is still reducing his impact on the environment - it makes little difference who he buys them from.

That is the gaff, and you are falling for it.  It doesn't make a difference, because he isn't polluting any less.  He is simply justifying his pollution in a round-about way, moving it from one hand to the other and then pretending that it went away.  It would be like a bank borrowing money from itself and then claiming that it has more money.  If his management company actually produced something in a carbon neutral way, then you would be correct.  In that case, his carbon credit would go against clean production and there would be real benefit.  Unfortunately, this isn't the case.  What he is doing is literal trickery.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Seuss]
    #8927283 - 09/14/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Are you suggesting that Gore's company is selling carbon credits fraudulently? That they aren't actually using the money to produce offsets? That's a pretty serious claim.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: zouden]
    #8927428 - 09/14/08 05:56 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> That they aren't actually using the money to produce offsets?

Produce offsets?  It is a investment firm.  They don't produce anything!  They invest money.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Rethink government programs that reward idiocy [Re: Seuss]
    #8927472 - 09/14/08 06:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, I see. Hmm...

okay well Gore is the chairmain of this company, it appears to be an investment company for environmental concerns as well as a broker for carbon credits. Gore uses his company to buy carbon credits from these two companies, which aren't owned by him.

It seems iffy at first, but it's no different to the owner of a Mercedes dealership buying a car through his own shop. You'd hardly expect him to use a competitor's service, and in the end he's still getting the same product.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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