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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
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Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?
#8906689 - 09/10/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Does it bother anyone else here that both the ESA and the NASA missions to Europa were canceled? I guess this is old news but I am still really pissed off about it.
What do you think about sending humans to the moon? Supposedly there is a "moon race" happening right now. Can someone here give me a scientific reason for doing it? Aren't unmanned drones the way to go due to lower weight and much lower cost?
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
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Humans DO NOT belong in space... It's idiotic and a total waste of money. Humans need heat, food, air and worst of all, the always want to come home!
It was a publicity stunt to send a human into space, and we just keep it up... Robots FTW!
We need to explore space, and bring back samples and all that... but that's all possible without people.
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pingpong
Stranger


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I can't afford gas in my car and "the man" wants to go on a Sunday drive to the moon? umm....
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: pingpong]
#8906717 - 09/10/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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They don't use Exxon gasoline... 
Besides, space exploration provides more than most people think... at least it used to. A bunch of the technology you enjoy today is from the space race.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: pingpong]
#8907939 - 09/10/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah well I find Jupiter's moons to be much more interesting than our own.
We can still explore both with unmanned probes... I really don't see the point in sending a man to the moon again. It just seems like a phenomenal waste of resources with no real scientific gain to justify it.
Sure there might be spin off technologies developed but the same can be said about unmanned space probes.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
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Quote:
adjust said: Sure there might be spin off technologies developed but the same can be said about unmanned space probes.
Absolutely. We had to do it back in the day to show how big our balls were. Now humans in space is just a waste of money, time and oddly enough... space. 
We also HAD to do it by hand back then... robotics have come a loooong way, look at the Mars Rovers!
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delta9
Active Ingredient


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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
#8908154 - 09/10/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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What about the ISS, though? I believe it is nearly complete with the recent addition of the Japanese lab module.
I agree, humans were not meant for space. This is why robotics, cybernetics, and transhumanism is the key to humanity (but by transhumanism, we won't quite be human anymore) spreading throughout the galaxies. Our life spans are too damn short and we require too many resources for it to be feasible in any other manner.
-------------------- delta9
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
#8908402 - 09/10/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Saying humans are 'meant' for something implies some sort of grand meaning and probably a creator.
Evidence however shows we were not created we just evolved complexity using mindless process that have no meaning for us at all. There is no inherent place the universe 'means' for us to be; land, sea, air and even space is all fair game for life to expand into and develop a niche. If space exploration is an adaptation that results in better fitness, then we will do it; and we will do it by nature not by construct. If space exploration results in less fitness, then obviously it will fade out.
To expect, or even strive for, life forms to stay where 'they belong' is naive because life is constantly shifting into different niches.
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Chazzersize
Pokemon Master



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8909674 - 09/10/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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perfect response, my friend.
-------------------- Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
#8910333 - 09/11/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, Robots could not do it.
We've had those two rovers on Mars for years now and they haven't acquired any geological knowledge that any undergraduate geologist couldn't gather in 10 minutes on the ground.
Seriously, all of these landers are frivolous. We have the technology now to send a group of people to Mars and safely return them. Sending even an single geologist over there for any length of time would answer literally thousands of times more information than the next 20 landers combined.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8910349 - 09/11/08 12:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I believe you, but what specifically could a person do that a machine couldn't?
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8910444 - 09/11/08 12:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't necessarily mean that there are specific tasks that you couldn't somehow design a robot to accomplish. I'd have a hard time thinking of anything in any discipline that you couldn't make a robot perform. But the general body of activities that encompass geology would be impossible for any single machine to do.
These rovers are up there with a little tool called the "RAT" for Rock Abrasion Tool. They drive this little thing to a rock and drill a little ways down into it, then get a camera really really close and attempt to to give the researchers back on Earth a good enough view to identify the rock. It's taken them three years to discover that a certain small rock feature on Mars is hematite. *3* years! You can put a rock in my hand and give me a hand lens and I'll tell if it's hematite in 10 seconds flat. The amount of effort being put into such minute discoveries is crazy.
And this recent polar lander. Billions and billions of dollars to get one shovel-full of dirt and see if it contained ice? You don't even need a geologist for this. A half-blind retard could answer this for you in seconds if you could put him on the surface.
Like I say, these are relatively minor discoveries being accomplished for billions of dollars, when comparable or slightly higher expenditures could be made to gather new knowledge that would be infinitely more valuable to man-kinds understanding of the solar system.
So much of what geologists do in the field is cerebral. Any geologist trying to gather information about an area will walk the area several times, taking samples and making copious amounts of representative sketches and diagrams before sitting down and really fleshing out how the relationships of different sequences fit together and what the likely process' are that could have brought these elements into their current positions. Trying to design a robot that could do this, or even that could relay enough information back to Earth to allow scientists there do it would be both prohibitively expensive and ultimately fool-hardy, since humans will be going to Mars sooner or later and you might as well do it now.
The latest attempt is the Mars Science Lab on which one of my past professors is a contributing worker. This will be a mobile rover with a complex suite of instruments designed to perform both geological and biological testing of the Martian environment. I don't know much about biology, but I bet you could train me to perform whatever the biology component of this mission is with relative ease.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8910770 - 09/11/08 02:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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You forget though... any human mission needs a return trip. That, and the much higher weight of the equipment, makes it not just slightly more expensive but perhaps an order of magnitude more expensive.
And again if we are going to explore anywhere why not explore Jupiter's moons?
Quote:
We’ve spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to understand if Mars was once a habitable environment. Europa today, probably, is a habitable environment. We need to confirm this … but Europa, potentially, has all the ingredients for life … and not just four billion years ago … but today.
-Robert Pappalardo, assistant professor, University of Colorado space department
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole



Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8911214 - 09/11/08 07:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Saying humans are 'meant' for something implies some sort of grand meaning and probably a creator.
Evidence however shows we were not created we just evolved complexity using mindless process that have no meaning for us at all. There is no inherent place the universe 'means' for us to be; land, sea, air and even space is all fair game for life to expand into and develop a niche. If space exploration is an adaptation that results in better fitness, then we will do it; and we will do it by nature not by construct. If space exploration results in less fitness, then obviously it will fade out.
To expect, or even strive for, life forms to stay where 'they belong' is naive because life is constantly shifting into different niches.
well said.
there is no "place" for humans. sure, were most comfortable on dry land on planet earth right now, but we can go anywhere and do anything we want. humans are only limited by their current technology. whenever the planet is finally inhospitable, then where will we "belong"? we cannot survive at the highest peaks of earth mountains, nor can we survive at the bottom of the ocean, or 5+ miles under the surface of the earth, yet we go to these places every day.
we belong wherever we want to belong.
--------------------
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: LeftyBurnz]
#8911227 - 09/11/08 07:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
leftysurprise said: we belong wherever we want to belong.
Sure, but when it raises the cost of the mission by 10 times and provides nothing more than "we put another man in space", it becomes a problem. Plus the fallout when people die... it's really dangerous!
Robots/machines can do everything much cheaper risk free, and that is becoming a priority.
Let Richard Branson send rich people into orbit... NASA only needs robots.
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole



Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
#8911235 - 09/11/08 07:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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just because it is currently technologically difficult and risks lives doesnt mean that its not worth it. imagine if the countless people that died trying to colonize the new world hadnt, then where would we belong? over in stinky europe and asia. 
i do think it is pointless to send man to the moon again, but space and other planets? never.
--------------------
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: LeftyBurnz]
#8911430 - 09/11/08 09:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
leftysurprise said: i do think it is pointless to send man to the moon again, but space and other planets? never.
Eventually, sure... But at the present time, it's just too hard to sustain human life over the time needed to travel.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
#8911437 - 09/11/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thousands of highly educated scientists and engineers think otherwise.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8911471 - 09/11/08 09:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Thousands of highly educated scientists and engineers think otherwise.

Well, they can keep wasting millions on sending warm, air breathing humans into the void of space. Makes perfect sense...
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
#8915408 - 09/11/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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We need to get cracking on this space elevator idea that gets thrown around every now and then. Once that thing is up, it'll open the floodgates. The entire solar system will be within reach. From what I've heard it all hinges on the development of carbon nanotubes, anyone know how thats going?
To answer the original question, yes I'm disappointed to hear that about the Jovian moon mission, but I'm looking forward to the mission to Ceres and that other dwarf planet/large asteroid.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8915426 - 09/11/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The physical capabilities exist, RIGHT NOW, to build a space elevator.
We could absolutely do it.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8915480 - 09/11/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Really? From what I've read, we don't have anything quite strong enough at the moment. Supposedly, carbon nanotubes should be strong enough, but they still need to figure out how to make them into longer molecules and also mass produce them. I guess steel would work on Mars though, just watch out for Phobos. What else could be used?
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8915507 - 09/11/08 10:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was under the impression...Let me find the article I read!
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Hematite
Newbee



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8921056 - 09/12/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The problem with manned space missions is radiation. We may be able to get around our neck of the solar system, maybe even out to Mars, and count on luck to avoid lethal doses of radiation from solar flares, but getting anywhere near Jupiter or Saturn would be difficult or impossible. Robot probes are the only way to go for places like Europa.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: Hematite]
#8921070 - 09/12/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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In The Case for Mars, NASA Consultant Robert Zubrin puts out a very good argument as to why the radiation problem is a paper tiger.
One of the best books on the subject of inter-planetary travel.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8922644 - 09/13/08 07:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I WANT TO SEE THE SPACE ELEVATOR ARTICLE
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Hematite
Newbee



Registered: 05/04/07
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Loc: Wisconsin
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8922767 - 09/13/08 08:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: In The Case for Mars, NASA Consultant Robert Zubrin puts out a very good argument as to why the radiation problem is a paper tiger.
One of the best books on the subject of inter-planetary travel.
As I understand it, getting to Mars and back largely is a matter of avoiding blasts of radiation from major solar flares, so if the trip was planned for the bottom of the solar cycle it could work. Going near Jupiter is another story. Humans couldn't survive 30 minutes in the places Jupiter probes go.
Another problem with long space voyages is bone loss. People in zero gravity lose a few percent of their skeletal mass each month and do not fully recover it on return to earth. So far no effective countermeasure (drugs and/or exercise) has been devised. As it now stands anyone who undertook a 2+ year trip to mars would return crippled for life. NASA is spending a lot of money on this problem. One good thing that almost has to come out of a successful manned space program is an effective treatment for osteoporosis.
Edited by Hematite (09/13/08 08:55 AM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,379
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
#8922787 - 09/13/08 09:01 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I like to ponder the psychological aspects of a manned mission to mars. While it may be technically feasbile to do so, it might make the astronauts crazy trying to get there.
Imagine working with 3-4 people in an extremely confined space for a 9 month trip to mars. Once they arrive, they still probably won't be able to "wander off" and go out on their own. Then theres that trip back.... I could imagine anyone I could stand being "locked up" with for potentially 2+ years.
On top of all this you know that a mistake may kill you, an environment devoid of gravity, only basic first aid if you get sick, etc. etc.
I think this is the first article I read on it: http://discovermagazine.com/2001/may/cover
Sounds like an interesting aspect to space exploration. I'm definetly looking into this type of research as a career choice! working on this stuff at NASA would be pretty cool.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (09/13/08 11:47 AM)
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darklcd
Stranger

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 675
Loc: on top of the world
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Quote:
adjust said: Does it bother anyone else here that both the ESA and the NASA missions to Europa were canceled? I guess this is old news but I am still really pissed off about it.
What do you think about sending humans to the moon? Supposedly there is a "moon race" happening right now. Can someone here give me a scientific reason for doing it? Aren't unmanned drones the way to go due to lower weight and much lower cost?
I think the best reason to explore the moon would be to find areas suitable to build a launching station. Not having to use so much fuel for liftoff would expand the distances we could travel by a large margin. The only problem is the fact it would cost a ton of money, and in the long run would we get our money's worth out of it?
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: darklcd]
#8925035 - 09/13/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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A Space Elevator is a much more elegant solution to the problem of getting things into orbit...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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If Europa (or any other body) has life, we're gonna fuck it up by sending contaminated robots to the surface.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8947348 - 09/18/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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You dont think they thought of that?
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8947355 - 09/18/08 12:06 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who is they?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8947395 - 09/18/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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The people who planned the mission of course.
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BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious



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Posts: 3,657
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8947419 - 09/18/08 12:20 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Personally, I don't think we are going to see much in the way of manned inter-planetary travel for at least a century, except by the handful of brave astronaut souls who are willing to cope with the many year journey it will take to get to Mars.
I don't underestimate the power of the human brain though to solve problems its presented.
Whats the current problem? Propulsion.
Getting to Mars simply takes too long. What are many Aerospace engineers working on every day of their lives? Propulsion.
Worry not, over the next century we'll see more developments in the area of propulsion than most people think possible. Most of it is stuff we probably can't even imagine yet.
One proposed idea (although highly radical) is once you have a craft in space, you drop anti-matter bombs behind you to give you a massive amount of impulse. I remember my professor in one of my classes telling me that this could theoretically propel a craft to 50% the speed of light. How about getting to Mars a few minutes?
Not saying we are going to see that....but even if we could find a way to get to Mars in just a few days, or even months, I think we could expect to see the full colonization of the planet in a pretty short period of time.
Sure now its hard to imagine us colonizing the solar system. But ask someone from the 19th century if they thought we'd ever go to the Moon. They would laugh their ass off. Now its simply a matter of physics.
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8947491 - 09/18/08 12:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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actually, I think our main problem right now regarding the mission to Mars is dollars, specifically the lack thereof. Followed closely by lack of political will and public support.
You think 6 months is too long to get to Mars? I don't; I would happily endure it for a chance to walk on Mars. In fact, I would give my left nut to have that chance.
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8947511 - 09/18/08 12:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not really talking about a "mission to mars". I'm talking about long term human colonization of Mars in greater numbers than just a handful.
Money is an issue, yes. But that is because it costs so much to send so little.
Once we have the technology to send more people and more cargo, and get that same piece of equipment back for another go around, we'll rapidly see more humans in space.
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8947544 - 09/18/08 12:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Six months is very optimistic. And unless the bone loss problem is solved, you might not be walking anywhere when you get there.
Humans may never get to Mars, just as they probably never will get to nearby solar systems and almost certainly not much farther than that. Some problems are insoluble. Technology has been advancing at a good clip for the past few centuries but there is no reason to assume that that will continue another thousand years or even another hundred. We're following no destiny and are not being propelled toward anything
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Sleepwalker
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8947568 - 09/18/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Life spreads to fill it's container, where possible. That container is a lot bigger than just our planet.
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mofo
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8947571 - 09/18/08 01:03 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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The bone loss problem has been tentatively solved by designing a craft that will spin for the duration of the journey, utilizing the centripetal force to create artificial gravity.
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8947594 - 09/18/08 01:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Some problems are insoluble. Technology has been advancing at a good clip for the past few centuries but there is no reason to assume that that will continue another thousand years or even another hundred.
I could not disagree with you more on this statement.
Its impossible to imagine what we will discover because we haven't discovered it yet.
Yeah right, like humans are EVER GOING TO FLY??? That is totally absurd. It will never happen.
You're one of those types.
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Annom
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Jupiter's and Saturn's moons are much more interesting to explore than our own moon. We all want to find life, don't we?
I'm writing an essay for a mechatronics course about an ice drill/melter robot that could be send to Europa; melting through the 5-25km ice layer and dropping a submarine in the (possible) liquid water ocean underneath the ice. Such a mission is very costly, risky and takes very long, but we need these missions if we want to find life before I die.
There are some practical things we could do at our own moon though. One cool thing that we can do on our moon is build a very large telescope (or more than one for interferometry). That would be a great mission.
Sending humans, instead of robots, to our moon does have benefits. We just shouldn't care so much about the safety of astronauts, that will make it much cheaper. You can save more lives with the money you save anyway. Sending humans, instead of robots, to Jupiter and beyond is stupid imo. It's takes too long and it is almost impossible to let a human survive in the Jovian radiation environment.
I want space money to go to Earth observation, unmanned planetary exploration and new telescopes. Not people on our Moon or Mars unless it really serves a good science mission.
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MisterMuscaria



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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8948128 - 09/18/08 06:46 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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We need to cut millitairy spending and put it towards space exploration.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8948177 - 09/18/08 07:22 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Solved in theory, yes. Actually building such a ship is something else. It would need to be massive, and given the amount of money NASA and the European Space Agency are spending on other ways of combating bone loss in space it doesn't appear to be regarded as a practical solution.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8948185 - 09/18/08 07:27 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said: Life spreads to fill it's container, where possible. That container is a lot bigger than just our planet.
"where possible" is the key.
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Seuss
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8948220 - 09/18/08 07:46 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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> It would need to be massive
I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but radiation is one of the biggest problems yet to be overcome. The shielding needed to protect human life in space is massive, and it takes a lot of money to put mass into space. The main thing that limits time an astronaut can spend on the space station is radiation exposure.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8948229 - 09/18/08 07:50 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrainChemistry said:
Quote:
Some problems are insoluble. Technology has been advancing at a good clip for the past few centuries but there is no reason to assume that that will continue another thousand years or even another hundred.
I could not disagree with you more on this statement.
Its impossible to imagine what we will discover because we haven't discovered it yet.
Yeah right, like humans are EVER GOING TO FLY??? That is totally absurd. It will never happen.
You're one of those types.
I don't deny the possibility of anything happening, just the certainty. Someone who 150 years ago claimed that humans will learn how to fly would have been almost as foolish as someone who denied the possibility, perhaps more foolish because they merely would have been parroting an optimism about technological progress that was as conventional then as it now is. Trends that have continued through our lives and through a few generations before us will not inevitably continue into the future, however permanent and unstoppable they may seem now.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Annom]
#8949083 - 09/18/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annom said: Jupiter's and Saturn's moons are much more interesting to explore than our own moon. We all want to find life, don't we?
I'm writing an essay for a mechatronics course about an ice drill/melter robot that could be send to Europa; melting through the 5-25km ice layer and dropping a submarine in the (possible) liquid water ocean underneath the ice. Such a mission is very costly, risky and takes very long, but we need these missions if we want to find life before I die.
There are some practical things we could do at our own moon though. One cool thing that we can do on our moon is build a very large telescope (or more than one for interferometry). That would be a great mission.
Sending humans, instead of robots, to our moon does have benefits. We just shouldn't care so much about the safety of astronauts, that will make it much cheaper. You can save more lives with the money you save anyway. Sending humans, instead of robots, to Jupiter and beyond is stupid imo. It's takes too long and it is almost impossible to let a human survive in the Jovian radiation environment.
I want space money to go to Earth observation, unmanned planetary exploration and new telescopes. Not people on our Moon or Mars unless it really serves a good science mission.
This is exactly how I feel on this issue. But the fact is they canceled the unmanned probes to Jupiter's moons while at the same time many nations are supposedly locked in a moon race to send a man to the moon...
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8949908 - 09/18/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hematite said: Someone who 150 years ago claimed that humans will learn how to fly would have been almost as foolish as someone who denied the possibility,
I would have simply called this person an optimist with faith in human creativity, not foolish.
Quote:
Annom said We just shouldn't care so much about the safety of astronauts, that will make it much cheaper
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8950290 - 09/18/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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It would not have been foolish to think that heavier than air flight was likely, only to argue that it definitely was or wasn't going to happen. There are no laws governing technological change and no way of knowing that any particular technological barrier will be broken until it is broken, or at least until a clear and practical path through it has been charted.
In the case of space travel, there is no particularly good reason to suppose that the problems that make manned travel much past Mars impossible today will be solved in the future. They might be, but who can know? Faster than light travel appears to be about as close to impossible as you can get; just getting up to speeds that would make travel to nearby stars or even the outer planets would require energy sources that there is no good prospect of our ever harnessing.
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8950507 - 09/18/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, in my opinion, I think mankind will break those barriers, given enough time and evolution of our species.
Call me an optimist, call me foolish, but thats just what I think.
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8950557 - 09/18/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Or I could call you a pessimist. I'm not sure that that kind of power would be good for us.
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8951261 - 09/18/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Worried we might go after all the little aliens out there?
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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RuNE
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8952410 - 09/18/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrainChemistry said: Worried we might go after all the little aliens out there?
Humans are a pathetic race. We'll destroy ourselves long before we destroy another civilization.
-------------------- ~Happy sailing~
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: RuNE]
#8952573 - 09/18/08 11:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pathetic maybe, but certainly very, very fit from a biological perspective.
Even if there is mass extinction many times over, I think we have a good chance that a viable population will survive through them for quite a long while.
We have already been around for nearly a million years, I see no reason to assume we wont be for a few million more, at least.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8953222 - 09/19/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Perhaps we could evolve into a space faring species over a million years?
But looking at the present situation... a human can live, what, 4 seconds exposed to space? To make interstellar travel viable we should be able to exist in the radiation, temperature range and vacuum we would expect to find in space, indefinitely.
That would require some serious modification of the human body... maybe over a million years it could be done. I am guessing the time would be a million years but it could be more or less.
In the meantime we have robots that are perfectly suitable to the environment of space... ie they are space faring robots... and they exist now, not a million years from now
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DieCommie


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Ha, we wouldn't need to evolve all that. We are sea faring right now, doesn't mean we can live and breath underwater indefinitely.
Anyway, Im not advocating interstellar travel. But the solar system is right here, so well explore the hell out of it in the next few million years. And maybe off shoots of the human race will develop new traits in their new environments. A little proactive genetic engineering would certainly take place as well like maybe feet being replaced with hands for people in low gravity environments. Man I wish I could see the future!
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8953299 - 09/19/08 03:13 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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We are not truly sea faring... we travel on top of the sea. This is also a very efficient way to travel, which means we don't really need to go underwater to travel from point A to point B.
If we did have to travel under the surface of the ocean for decades or even hundreds of years, then yes it would be a lot simpler our bodies could survive exposed at tremendous pressure and continuously exposed to salt water.
I mean could you imagine traveling around in a submarine, underwater and unable to surface for 100 years? It would be a lot simpler to design such a submarine if it was at equal pressure inside and the human occupants were totally at ease underwater.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8958345 - 09/20/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrainChemistry said: Worried we might go after all the little aliens out there?
No, worried about us. I assume that any little aliens we may encounter in space will be more than able to take care of themselves.
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Hematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Seuss]
#8958445 - 09/20/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > It would need to be massive
I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but radiation is one of the biggest problems yet to be overcome. The shielding needed to protect human life in space is massive, and it takes a lot of money to put mass into space. The main thing that limits time an astronaut can spend on the space station is radiation exposure.
I was thinking of the minimum size a spacecraft would have to be to create a useful layer of 1g workspace through spinning. It would help nothing to have your toes exposed to 1 g while your arms float. To keep of the loading needed to maintain skeletal mass your entire body would have to be exposed to 1 g, not just your feet.
Standing in your spinning spacecraft your feet would be pressed against the outer wall, while your head would point toward the center of rotation. To have your head and feet exposed to similar gravity, your head would have to be rotating around a circle with nearly the same circumference as your feet. The rotational radius of the outer wall would have to be large enough that the radius 6 feet or so in from the outer wall was at least, say, 80% as large, which would be 30 feet. So the spacecraft would have to be at least 60' across, which is huge. Even so, you'd feel like you were in an amusement park ride: you would be aware of the rotation every time you stood up or sat down because part of your body would have change its acceleration to match its new position. To reduce this effect to a bearable level would require a much larger rotational radius. Our middle ear is so sensitive to this kind of thing that I Imagine that even the 1% gravitational gradient through the workspace that you'd have with a 1200' spacecraft would be enough to cause severe vertigo.
Edited by Hematite (09/20/08 11:01 AM)
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mofo
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
#8958898 - 09/20/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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True, but this can be achieved more easily than at first glance. The simplest solution would be to take a typical space capsule, attach it to a long chain and attach a counter weight to the other end. The counter weight wouldn't necessarily even have to be shipped up; it could be an object collected from space, a meteoroid or something. As far as radiation shielding goes, from what I've read, a reservoir of water a few feet thick surrounding the living space would be adequate. Some have even suggested that the waste water from the ship (sewage) would be even better because of the solids interspersed within it.
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Annom
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
#8959156 - 09/20/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
As far as radiation shielding goes, from what I've read, a reservoir of water a few feet thick surrounding the living space would be adequate.
How large do you think this living space would be? A reservoir of water a few feet thick surrounding a living area sounds like a massive thing to me.
Maybe you can use the rocket fuel that is needed for orbit injection around Mars (are we talking about going to Mars? ) to shield the spacecraft? I think a magnetic shield could also provide protection, but that probably needs a lot of power. A nuclear reactor would be handy to bring.
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LeftyBurnz
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8968762 - 09/22/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Even if there is mass extinction many times over, I think we have a good chance that a viable population will survive through them for quite a long while.
We have already been around for nearly a million years, I see no reason to assume we wont be for a few million more, at least.
--------------------
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: LeftyBurnz]
#8968789 - 09/22/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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One interesting thing to think of is this...
What will society be rebuilt with?
In the years before and especially since the Industrial Revolution mankind has exhumed and exhausted most of the easily reached natural resources. Hence our reliance on increasingly exotic technologies and scientific breakthroughs to continue to provide us with the energy that we crave. It was easy enough to build an industrial society when oil lay pooled on the ground and coal littered the Earth's mountains for the picking.
It's hard to imagine, however, oil sands or hydro-fractured natural gas wells being a viable option for any kind of societal re-emergence following a global-scale catastrophe.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8969118 - 09/22/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: One interesting thing to think of is this...
What will society be rebuilt with?
In the years before and especially since the Industrial Revolution mankind has exhumed and exhausted most of the easily reached natural resources. Hence our reliance on increasingly exotic technologies and scientific breakthroughs to continue to provide us with the energy that we crave. It was easy enough to build an industrial society when oil lay pooled on the ground and coal littered the Earth's mountains for the picking.
It's hard to imagine, however, oil sands or hydro-fractured natural gas wells being a viable option for any kind of societal re-emergence following a global-scale catastrophe.
Exactly. We can't even build gothic cathedrals anymore. They needed hundred of years of passed down masonry skill to build construct them. We simply do not have the knowledge to do it any longer.
In a similar way, if our civilization was to collapse it would have a tremendous effect on the computer industry. The robots that build the computers are run by other computers and designed by other computers. If you destroy this infrastructure of computer technology and professionals, you can't easily rebuild.
Another good example is sending another man to our moon... hey the US did it already but the engineers and technology that made it happen died out. That's why it is so difficult to do today.
After a global catastrophe we would be considerably worse off than we were 10,000 years ago. We would have to start off again without the abundant resources that triggered the bronze and iron age.
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automan
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That's why we have books. A lot of the knowledge is there, you just need people eager enough to go learn it and build upon it.
-------------------- No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: automan]
#8969304 - 09/22/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Think about it though.
We don't have the same resources literally lying around as we did in the bronze age.
We can't really "start from scratch" like we did in the past.
We have books on the nasa's manned missions to the moon. Yet they are still having a hard time recreating those technologies. Now imagine if all the world's electronics were suddenly destroyed.
What good is a book when you don't have the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that build's the machine that builds the machine that you want to build.
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DieCommie


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I think that previous knowledge and traditions would overshadow resource scarcity allowing us to progress from stone age to industry more rapidly after a cataclysm than the first time we did it.
I am skeptical as to how scarce resources would be anyway... all the forests would be grown back, not all the fossil fuels would be exhausted, and there would be a smaller human population so a smaller demand for energy.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
#8969557 - 09/22/08 07:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I guess also you have garbage dumps.
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DieCommie


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Often when I throw away papers or personal items I ponder what a future archeologist might think when they are dug up.
More than once I have erased a bad equation or shredded something for that very reason...
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