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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
    #8915426 - 09/11/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The physical capabilities exist, RIGHT NOW, to build a space elevator.

We could absolutely do it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisiblemofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8915480 - 09/11/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Really? From what I've read, we don't have anything quite strong enough at the moment.  Supposedly, carbon nanotubes should be strong enough, but they still need to figure out how to make them into longer molecules and also mass produce them.  I guess steel would work on Mars though, just watch out for Phobos.  What else could be used?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
    #8915507 - 09/11/08 10:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was under the impression...Let me find the article I read!


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineHematite
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Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 156
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
    #8921056 - 09/12/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The problem with manned space missions is radiation. We may be able to get around our neck of the solar system, maybe even out to Mars, and count on luck to avoid lethal doses of radiation from solar flares, but getting anywhere near Jupiter or Saturn would be difficult or impossible. Robot probes are the only way to go for places like Europa.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: Hematite]
    #8921070 - 09/12/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In The Case for Mars, NASA Consultant Robert Zubrin puts out a very good argument as to why the radiation problem is a paper tiger.

One of the best books on the subject of inter-planetary travel.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8922644 - 09/13/08 07:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I WANT TO SEE THE SPACE ELEVATOR ARTICLE

:crankey:

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OfflineHematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8922767 - 09/13/08 08:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
In The Case for Mars, NASA Consultant Robert Zubrin puts out a very good argument as to why the radiation problem is a paper tiger.

One of the best books on the subject of inter-planetary travel.




As I understand it, getting to Mars and back largely is a matter of avoiding blasts of radiation from major solar flares, so if the trip was planned for the bottom of the solar cycle it could work. Going near Jupiter is another story. Humans couldn't survive 30 minutes in the places Jupiter probes go.

Another problem with long space voyages is bone loss. People in zero gravity lose a few percent of their skeletal mass each month and do not fully recover it on return to earth. So far no effective countermeasure (drugs and/or exercise) has been devised. As it now stands anyone who undertook a 2+ year trip to mars would return crippled for life. NASA is spending a lot of money on this problem. One good thing that almost has to come out of a successful manned space program is an effective treatment for osteoporosis.

Edited by Hematite (09/13/08 08:55 AM)

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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,379
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons?http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8922787 - 09/13/08 09:01 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I like to ponder the psychological aspects of a manned mission to mars.  While it may be technically feasbile to do so, it might make the astronauts crazy trying to get there. 

Imagine working with 3-4 people in an extremely confined space for a 9 month trip to mars.  Once they arrive, they still probably won't be able to "wander off" and go out on their own.  Then theres that trip back....  I could imagine anyone I could stand being "locked up" with for potentially 2+ years.

On top of all this you know that a mistake may kill you, an environment devoid of gravity, only basic first aid if you get sick, etc. etc.

I think this is the first article I read on it: http://discovermagazine.com/2001/may/cover

Sounds like an interesting aspect to space exploration.  I'm definetly looking into this type of research as a career choice! working on this stuff at NASA would be pretty cool.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

Edited by badchad (09/13/08 11:47 AM)

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Invisibledarklcd
Stranger

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 675
Loc: on top of the world
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8925015 - 09/13/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Does it bother anyone else here that both the ESA and the NASA missions to Europa were canceled? I guess this is old news but I am still really pissed off about it.

What do you think about sending humans to the moon? Supposedly there is a "moon race" happening right now. Can someone here give me a scientific reason for doing it? Aren't unmanned drones the way to go due to lower weight and much lower cost?




I think the best reason to explore the moon would be to find areas suitable to build a launching station. Not having to use so much fuel for liftoff would expand the distances we could travel by a large margin. The only problem is the fact it would cost a ton of money, and in the long run would we get our money's worth out of it?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: darklcd]
    #8925035 - 09/13/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

A Space Elevator is a much more elegant solution to the problem of getting things into orbit...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8947188 - 09/17/08 11:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

If Europa (or any other body) has life, we're gonna fuck it up by sending contaminated robots to the surface.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #8947348 - 09/18/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You dont think they thought of that?

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8947355 - 09/18/08 12:06 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Who is they?

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #8947395 - 09/18/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The people who planned the mission of course.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 3,657
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #8947419 - 09/18/08 12:20 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Personally, I don't think we are going to see much in the way of manned inter-planetary travel for at least a century, except by the handful of brave astronaut souls who are willing to cope with the many year journey it will take to get to Mars.

I don't underestimate the power of the human brain though to solve problems its presented.

Whats the current problem? Propulsion.

Getting to Mars simply takes too long. What are many Aerospace engineers working on every day of their lives? Propulsion.

Worry not, over the next century we'll see more developments in the area of propulsion than most people think possible. Most of it is stuff we probably can't even imagine yet.

One proposed idea (although highly radical) is once you have a craft in space, you drop anti-matter bombs behind you to give you a massive amount of impulse. I remember my professor in one of my classes telling me that this could theoretically propel a craft to 50% the speed of light. How about getting to Mars a few minutes?

Not saying we are going to see that....but even if we could find a way to get to Mars in just a few days, or even months, I think we could expect to see the full colonization of the planet in a pretty short period of time.

Sure now its hard to imagine us colonizing the solar system. But ask someone from the 19th century if they thought we'd ever go to the Moon. They would laugh their ass off. Now its simply a matter of physics.


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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Invisiblemofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8947491 - 09/18/08 12:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

actually, I think our main problem right now regarding the mission to Mars is dollars, specifically the lack thereof.  Followed closely by lack of political will and public support.

You think 6 months is too long to get to Mars?  I don't; I would happily endure it for a chance to walk on Mars.  In fact, I would give my left nut to have that chance.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
    #8947511 - 09/18/08 12:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not really talking about a "mission to mars". I'm talking about long term human colonization of Mars in greater numbers than just a handful.

Money is an issue, yes. But that is because it costs so much to send so little.

Once we have the technology to send more people and more cargo, and get that same piece of equipment back for another go around, we'll rapidly see more humans in space.


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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OfflineHematite
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: mofo]
    #8947544 - 09/18/08 12:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Six months is very optimistic. And unless the bone loss problem is solved, you might not be walking anywhere when you get there.

Humans may never get to Mars, just as they probably never will get to nearby solar systems and almost certainly not much farther than that. Some problems are insoluble. Technology has been advancing at a good clip for the past few centuries but there is no reason to assume that that will continue another thousand years or even another hundred. We're following no destiny and are not being propelled toward anything

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
    #8947568 - 09/18/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Life spreads to fill it's container, where possible.  That container is a lot bigger than just our planet. :shrug:

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Invisiblemofo
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Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
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Re: Priority... explore our own moon or Jupiter's moons? [Re: Hematite]
    #8947571 - 09/18/08 01:03 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The bone loss problem has been tentatively solved by designing a craft that will spin for the duration of the journey, utilizing the centripetal force to create artificial gravity.

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