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skin_
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: Robo]
#8905502 - 09/10/08 04:24 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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At the moment I'm leaning towards phenelthylamines. That might be because they're easier for me to obtain and 2ct7 is my new favourite drug.
I also haven't been able to try DMT yet, and I have a feeling that'd change my opinion.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8907608 - 09/10/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: i keep thinking that psychedelic and deleriant are only distinguished by degree of the effect and manageability of the dose. deleriant being very intense psychedelic, and hard to dose lightly. while as i said - dissociative is a psychedelic with anesthesia mixed in. all of the known active binding sites do not clearly explain the psychedelic effects which are observably layering of more slowly fading senses and mentation, so we can presume that the result of the binding of psychoactives, in turn produces other chemical and physical effects that produce the extended signal feedback which is observed.
I'd disagree. Again, if you're using psychedelic simply as the most general variant of "mind-manifesting", then almost any substance that reflects back the nature of your mind qualifies. But in the commonly accepted usage of the word, we generally take it to mean a serotonergic psychedelic that acts at the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor. Deliriants, contrarily, are mostly tropane alkaloids that act at the muscarinic acetylcholine receptor. Different systems, different effects.
The trips themselves are also remarkably different. Classical psychedelics open the doors of perception; removing the filters that ordinarily prevent us from experiencing the full potential of sensory and mental data. Music is enhanced, tactile sensations become blissful experiences of heaven on earth, and the peak of the trip is likely to give the feeling of ego death, where one's sense of boundaries of self dissolves outwards to give the quintessential mystical experience.
Deliriants, however, pose an entirely different question. The cerebral cortex is essentially shut off by high doses of Datura and the like--your ability to reason and think rationally will be cut off by the anticholinergic hammerblow to your frontal lobe and by the onrush of amnesia as your hippocampus switches to dreaming mode while the rest of your mind is still awake. You no longer will recognize yourself in a mirror, and music will sound foreign. This is the domain of your dreaming brainstem, which recognizes not this human concept of order and logic, but rather only a primordially ancient dreamtime ruled by subconscious intuition, instinct, and primal urges. You will have no longterm memory, only the instantaneous now of your shortterm recall.
A common theme with deliriants is that of fear--as it remains one of our most ancient emotions. Anything that you fear can and will manifest itself in dreamtime if you're not prepared--trip reports from Datura regale us with accounts of hordes of swarming insects crawling over the tripper, or millions of spiders running at insane velocities across walls. It's as if the hidden curtain that separates this reality from the eldritch horrors is pierced by the anticholinergia of the drug.
On the other hand, if one is able to master the art of lucid dreaming and not get fully submerged by the ceaseless momentum of one's dream, then power is readily available to be seized. Any person you wish to speak to can be summoned--instantly modeled by your brain's superior capability of mirroring reality--and you can travel to any place not burdened by your physical feet.
Walking one's subconscious is vastly different from exploring the infinitely recursive fractals of one's cerebral cortex, as in the case of classical psychedelics. The latter is for gaining knowledge about one's self and (possibly) the universe. The former is for gaining power.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: deCypher]
#8908409 - 09/10/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Cypher said:
.......... Different systems, different effects..............
The trips themselves are also remarkably different. Classical psychedelics open the doors of perception; removing the filters that ordinarily prevent us from experiencing the full potential of sensory and mental data. Music is enhanced, tactile sensations become blissful experiences of heaven on earth, and the peak of the trip is likely to give the feeling of ego death, where one's sense of boundaries of self dissolves outwards to give the quintessential mystical experience.
Deliriants, however, pose an entirely different question. The cerebral cortex is essentially shut off by high doses of Datura and the like--your ability to reason and think rationally will be cut off by the anticholinergic hammerblow to your frontal lobe and by the onrush of amnesia as your hippocampus switches to dreaming mode while the rest of your mind is still awake. You no longer will recognize yourself in a mirror, and music will sound foreign. This is the domain of your dreaming brainstem, which recognizes not this human concept of order and logic, but rather only a primordially ancient dreamtime ruled by subconscious intuition, instinct, and primal urges. You will have no longterm memory, only the instantaneous now of your shortterm recall.
A common theme with deliriants is that of fear--as it remains one of our most ancient emotions. Anything that you fear can and will manifest itself in dreamtime if you're not prepared--trip reports from Datura regale us with accounts of hordes of swarming insects crawling over the tripper, or millions of spiders running at insane velocities across walls. It's as if the hidden curtain that separates this reality from the eldritch horrors is pierced by the anticholinergia of the drug.
On the other hand, if one is able to master the art of lucid dreaming and not get fully submerged by the ceaseless momentum of one's dream, then power is readily available to be seized. Any person you wish to speak to can be summoned--instantly modeled by your brain's superior capability of mirroring reality--and you can travel to any place not burdened by your physical feet.
Walking one's subconscious is vastly different from exploring the infinitely recursive fractals of one's cerebral cortex, as in the case of classical psychedelics. The latter is for gaining knowledge about one's self and (possibly) the universe. The former is for gaining power.
of course our language usage differs, but I think your logic subtends from weak branches. you say "Different systems, different effects" and this is only partly true. the triggering psychedelics enter specific binding locales but the system - there really only is one system (for the psychedelic part) is the cortex signal activation system, and none of the psychedelic drugs do enough there directly to produce what we call the psychedelic effects. But all of them somehow affect the activation of this system so as to increase the fading of signals by increments related to dosage.
you also echo a common but nonscientific argument 'Classical psychedelics open the doors of perception; removing the filters ', and I would challenge you to point out any door to perception in the brain or anywhere near the known binding sites of these chemicals, and please note there is no such thing as a filter which gets removed, though in popular psychology and new age chat rooms you will hear this echoed as well; no biological filter subsystem in the brain except for the reticular formation fitering the whole body from the cortex (shut down for sleep time).
perhaps you really mean the attention is released from obsessive focus habits, which does occur when we take psychedelics. this does encourage wider acceptance of sensations, but also expect more sensation activity as the fading is retarded - the world becomes larger and more fascinating at moderate doses (and aparently at very low doses of datura a well - is that not curious to you?).
the incidence of fear with deleriants or with high dosed psychedelics is to be expected. this defensive reflex occurs when nothing is familiar. This is the Over Dose that people will find quickly with datura and only if they are ridiculously over dosing with shrooms or the like.
And this one is really remarkably difficult to interpret scientifically "Walking one's subconscious is vastly different from exploring the infinitely recursive fractals of one's cerebral cortex"; are you suggesting that the subconscious in in a different place than the corex? are you suggesting that the fractals are physical structure of cortex- or are you talking about the intensity of effect - wich is really dosage related, visual effects engage at lower dosage (in all of them) than the immersion in dream realities (which is achievable with all of them at higher dosage)
let's just say we use our language differently or are differently experienced.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8908615 - 09/10/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: you also echo a common but nonscientific argument 'Classical psychedelics open the doors of perception; removing the filters ', and I would challenge you to point out any door to perception in the brain or anywhere near the known binding sites of these chemicals
I'm speaking not strictly from a neuropharmacological viewpoint here, but rather from subjective experience. Under psychedelics, my sensation is vastly enriched--colors appear to be stronger, listening to music is like listening to celestial sounds, and focusing on one's mind uncovers true motivations and reasons for our behavior. You're going to be hard-pressed to find any literal 'door to perception' in the brain, particularly when we aren't even clear what the link is between neurotransmitter action and consciousness in the first place, but the evidence from such aftereffects from psychedelic usage such as HPPD-like tracers is clear: the inhibition of the usual inhibitory mechanisms in the visual cortex that permit us to distinguish patterns from chaos in the static of data streaming through our perception is typical for psychedelics such as LSD or mushrooms. It is this release of inhibitory mechanisms that is colloquially deemed to be the opening of the doors of perception, when perhaps more precisely it is the enhancement of our pattern-finding capabilities.
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the incidence of fear with deleriants or with high dosed psychedelics is to be expected. this defensive reflex occurs when nothing is familiar. This is the Over Dose that people will find quickly with datura and only if they are ridiculously over dosing with shrooms or the like.
Sure, one can attribute a defensive reflex to almost any difficult experience, but I would postulate there is a fundamental difference between bad trips of the psychedelic variety and bad trips of the deliriant variety. In the former, negative emotions are simply amplified into recursive thought loops of paranoia, despair, and anxiety. It's a feedback loop, and is caused by similar prevention of inhibitory mechanisms present in the cerebral cortex. Bad trips on Datura, however, far more closely resemble schizophrenia or psychosis. There is a sense of alive-ness that becomes apparent in inanimate objects, and upon higher doses this can manifest itself into moving actors and entities; angels and demons bent with their own motivations and personal agendas (these are merely reflections of one's brainstem-originated subconscious). It's the difference between your own mind becoming insane or ripping itself apart with vibes of catatonic despair (in the case of psychedelics) and becoming trapped in the depths of your worst sleeping nightmare. Psychedelics take what's already out there and amplify the signal to your mind; deliriants take the indefinite potential lurking in the Id and superimposes beings, landscapes, and gods onto what you previously conceived as 'reality.'
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And this one is really remarkably difficult to interpret scientifically "Walking one's subconscious is vastly different from exploring the infinitely recursive fractals of one's cerebral cortex"; are you suggesting that the subconscious in in a different place than the corex? are you suggesting that the fractals are physical structure of cortex- or are you talking about the intensity of effect - wich is really dosage related, visual effects engage at lower dosage (in all of them) than the immersion in dream realities (which is achievable with all of them at higher dosage)
I would say that the dreamstate invoked by deliriants (as characterized by one's subconscious) resides primarily in the brainstem, which then filters our sensory perceptions of reality with another layer of hidden subtext and meaning. Reason is something that the ancient, instinctual urges that lurk in dreaming can't understand--and this is why if one attempts to retain sobriety and logical control over the seemingly random fluctations of the dreamscape, all concept of 'normal' reality will be shattered.
Immersion in a completely different reality is most assuredly possible with psychedelics (typically DMT analogues), but I would still maintain this is a completely different experience from a full-blown Datura trip. One retains one's modus operandi, sense of orderliness of thought, and memory during high dose psychedelic excursions--one does not with a high dose deliriant excursion.
I cannot, however, vouch for where Salvia stands from my perspective as I have not had enough experience with the Diviner's Sage. The possibility for dreamstates to spontaneously emerge into consensus reality under the plant is definitely intriguing, and warrants further investigation on my part. The closest that I've come to similar deliriant trips in non-anticholinergics would be Amanita Muscaria, which seems to produce a very neutral dreamstate (as opposed to the typically malevolent and frenzied Daturascape).
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: deCypher]
#8909001 - 09/10/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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the cypher I have to repeat that your neuro-science is not as strong as your opinions. the dream experience is cerebral. same as everything else however it is layered like the intense psychedelics. the brain stem is wiring and support circuitry all of consciousness is cerebral.
we should not be arguing.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8909069 - 09/10/08 08:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree that the dream experience, plus all of consciousness is cerebral.
This does not imply that the dreaming experience employs reasoning, abstract thinking skills, or the personality-infused logic that is stereotypical of the cerebral cortex, which is much, much younger than the reptilian limbic system and brainstem.
It is this part that I'm referring to--the part that deals with the fundamental impulses that drive us; such as the instincts to fight, flee, feed, and fornicate. All of these are routinely seen in dream imagery, which is far more primal and ancient than any of our higher order reasoning structures.
The unification of these fundamental emotions with the ability to think logically, as comes with the addition of the neocortex, is what makes us conscious human beings--but it is the enhancement of either the former or the latter that makes for the essential difference between the deliriant and the psychedelic experience.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Apollyphelion
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8909110 - 09/10/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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A lot of things have got the job done for me. LSD, Beer, Pot, Cubes, Salvia Poppers, E, Salvia, Painkillers Dentist laughing gas AT the dentist good times
From what I have read I understand conciousness is to be a gestalt derived from signals that the senses intake.
At least that is my lexicon sample of how I think about what I am thinking about.
Lot's of shit fucks with the signals.
I love trying/reading about reducing conciousness. It is so offensive in a way that is awesome.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: deCypher]
#8909297 - 09/10/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: This does not imply that the dreaming experience employs reasoning, abstract thinking skills, or the personality-infused logic that is stereotypical of the cerebral cortex, which is much, much younger than the reptilian limbic system and brainstem.
mistakenly a person may believe that there are logic circuits in the cerebrum there are not logic and abstract thinking are only learned sequences - entirely based upon associative mentation. dreams are also associative processing. dreams only differ from waking consciousness in the depth of layering and variety of fragmentation. it is the same engine - the cerebrum - where this takes place.
mistakenly a person may believe that the limbic system is involved in anything other than autonomic body gear shifting to go with basic body needs, sex, fight, flight, it does this on cue from cortex - it does not operate independently even in reptiles. this is seldom part of dreams and only part of delerium when the intensity exceeds moderate layering.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8909397 - 09/10/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: logic and abstract thinking are only learned sequences - entirely based upon associative mentation.
I'm intrigued. Are you implying that logic is ultimately relative; being that it is dependent upon solely subjective associative experiences?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: deCypher]
#8910485 - 09/11/08 12:44 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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it is a sense of style (observing and matching the performance) and a habit (associative task) or attitude (learned approach) of checking for dependencies (associative details). all of these things are equivalent cognitive connections.
the mind functions on simmilarities and experience, logic is an artifice of mind, not a thing that mind is built upon.
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wildchild68
lion in a coma
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8910675 - 09/11/08 01:28 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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From what I've experienced, I definitely prefer the tryptamines.
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g00ru
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8911165 - 09/11/08 07:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: it is a sense of style (observing and matching the performance) and a habit (associative task) or attitude (learned approach) of checking for dependencies (associative details). all of these things are equivalent cognitive connections.
the mind functions on simmilarities and experience, logic is an artifice of mind, not a thing that mind is built upon.
I'm not sure I'm ready to reduce logic to a subjective trait. The brain might not be "built on logic," but by it's very nature I believe the brain is "built" to produce logical thinking.
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Apollyphelion
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: g00ru]
#8911316 - 09/11/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think logic is merely when something goes right for you due to stemming from the association wizard your brain is.
Sometimes the results are important, and not the logic behind it.
That is a logic, too.
I think protecting our genes is innate, so killing might seem logical when riding that particular assocation train.
I think anyway you look at it all connections are the same lego bricks, just textured differently possibly due to the ability to differentiate.
All roads lead to rome!
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redgreenvines
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: g00ru]
#8911703 - 09/11/08 10:12 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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guruu said: ... I'm not sure I'm ready to reduce logic to a subjective trait. The brain might not be "built on logic," but by it's very nature I believe the brain is "built" to produce logical thinking.
subjective is not a necessary adjective. everything is related to experience, including what you learn from books and school - it is experience, if you did not experience it it is not in you. our brain works by association pattern matching. it's a simmilarity machine. patterns in vision, sound, touch, taste, smell, cadence (rhythm and timing), temperature etc. and memory / thought... combinations of these have distinct signatures that can be remembered. simmilarities between signatures are used to suggest simmilarities between what is happenning and what was already in your experience.
note we can instantly match rotated signatures, as well as size variant signatures (holographic interference signatures)
everything falls into that.
logic is a stylistic extension of that, a particular way of checking for matches that supports constraints like language, or laboratory process for instance.
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piracetam
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8911727 - 09/11/08 10:15 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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logic is typically a left-hemisphere attribute; linear/analytical thinking.
attempting to describe intangibles is where it's evident just how finite language really is.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8911787 - 09/11/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: subjective is not a necessary adjective. everything is related to experience, including what you learn from books and school - it is experience, if you did not experience it it is not in you. our brain works by association pattern matching. it's a simmilarity machine. patterns in vision, sound, touch, taste, smell, cadence (rhythm and timing), temperature etc. and memory / thought... combinations of these have distinct signatures that can be remembered. simmilarities between signatures are used to suggest simmilarities between what is happenning and what was already in your experience.
Is this not prediction, rather than logical thinking?
Experience is not necessary for pure reason (A = A; If A, Then B. A, therefore B.)
There seems to be something more fundamental behind a chain of logical thought than simply matching past associations to a future prediction.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: deCypher]
#8911866 - 09/11/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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you are talking about working with logical notation which is dependent upon experience of these patterns of notation similarity in the patterns is where we operate.
it does not mean that logic and math don't exist, it just means that what we do with it is recognizing and re-arranging and then recognizing the fittingness of our actions.
we can recognize if a pattern is like another one. or it it is unique but compliant in form this wonderful exercise is truly creative, but it is creativity by rearranging the familiar and seeing validity (matchingness, suitability etc.) in the new arrangement.
we see beauty in that too (computers are not built that way yet). this is beyond logic, and it requires no logic circuitry (which computers do have).
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QuantumReality
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: thedudenj]
#8912310 - 09/11/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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ive never had ibogaine or doxs though i definately say tryptamines
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: redgreenvines]
#8912614 - 09/11/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: you are talking about working with logical notation which is dependent upon experience of these patterns of notation similarity in the patterns is where we operate.
But these patterns of notation represent abstract concepts, though, which is irreducible to simple pattern matching. I'd argue there's something more fundamental behind the statement A=A than simply recognizing that this statement conforms to past patterns of notation that has been deemed to be considered logically consistent. This would ultimately imply that logic is relative to one's culturally developed framework of notation.
It's this sense of something logically following from something else that's uncapturable by simple rearrangement of the familiar and applying similarities, IMO. A computer program can easily do the latter, but it cannot recognize the hidden logical structure behind the symbols.
...
Or perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part. I suppose, ultimately, the human capacity for logic is in fact capable of being boiled down to a set of simplistic rules for juggling syntax around, but methinks this takes the beauty out of it.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Tryptamines Vs. Phenethylamines [Re: deCypher]
#8915091 - 09/11/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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the logical functions "implies", or "follows" is a natural thing in associative memory. memory is linked by simmilarity and memory is linked by sequences which had followed in the past.
since before plato people have searched for traces of something more pure or absolute which represents this principle but the principle is innate in associative memory and the two functions may be termed logical while actually being associative.
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