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Hematite
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Mystery pic
#8890257 - 09/07/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Anyone want to guess what this is?
Hints: it's natural, not human made. It's a false color image, with each color representing a different element. There are five colors. Blue is calcium.
Edited by Hematite (09/07/08 10:04 AM)
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8890347 - 09/07/08 10:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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It would help to know what the other elements might be..... is that suppose to be part of the mystery too?
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Seuss
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8890760 - 09/07/08 12:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Almost looks like a nerve cross section.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8891414 - 09/07/08 03:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Some kind of micro fossil?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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freeDOOM
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8891628 - 09/07/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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some sort of rock/mineral?
--------------------
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: freeDOOM]
#8892710 - 09/07/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Everyone is on the right track.
The other elements are iron and silicon (both shades of red), sulphur and uranium (different shades of green). I used additive (RGB) mixing.
Here's a higher resolution picture of the same thing, in B&W, where the shade is determined by density (more dense=white):
Edited by Hematite (09/07/08 07:30 PM)
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8894343 - 09/08/08 01:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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What kind of machine makes that image? Or will that give it away...
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8894385 - 09/08/08 01:26 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's a scanning electron microscope in backscatter mode (BSE).
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8894423 - 09/08/08 01:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is the object of biological origin?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8895198 - 09/08/08 08:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said: Is the object of biological origin?
Partly...
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Diploid
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8895820 - 09/08/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've seen electron micrographs of prions that looked like that...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Diploid]
#8896275 - 09/08/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not a prion. The round structures that are white in the first picture are natural but non-biological.
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hoodbran
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8896328 - 09/08/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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cross section of shroom spore
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: hoodbran]
#8896635 - 09/08/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Getting colder now.
Suess has been the closest so far. Nerves, among other things, are involved, but there are no nerves in the picture.
Edited by Hematite (09/08/08 02:34 PM)
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badchad
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8896777 - 09/08/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's a plaque within a brain. Essentially a dead neuron.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Seuss
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8896778 - 09/08/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hmmm... a neurosecretory granule?
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badchad
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Seuss]
#8896786 - 09/08/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, I was gonna say they were vesicles filled with some type of neurotransmitter, but the OP said the spots were non-biological.
they also look like some type of protein within a cell that was immunolabeled.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (09/08/08 03:10 PM)
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8896801 - 09/08/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Section of spinal cord?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8896919 - 09/08/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The images show only the elements calcium, iron, sulphur, silicon, and uranium. Organic material, if present, would not be visible. No nerves or cells are visible.
Two more hints: 1. The object is of biological origin, but has been heavily modified by three non-biological processes. 2. The blue colored area is composed primarily of calcium phosphate of biological origin.
That's ten questions down, ten more to go.
Edited by Hematite (09/08/08 03:44 PM)
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8896924 - 09/08/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hmmm, okay I'm going back to my original guess of some kind of micro fossil. Like a fossilised algae cell.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8896941 - 09/08/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said: Hmmm, okay I'm going back to my original guess of some kind of micro fossil. Like a fossilised algae cell.
Yes, it is a fossil, or rather part of a fossil. But it is not and alga cell, nor a cell of any sort, nor is it a plant of any sort.
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hoodbran
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8897289 - 09/08/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fossil hydrocarbon? I have a sample from the Loveland field, CO, USA - from the cretaceous period
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Seuss
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: hoodbran]
#8897334 - 09/08/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Renal calculi from drinking water contaminated with depleted uranium? (I'm reaching here...)
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Seuss]
#8897810 - 09/08/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The B&W pic's resolution shows that the ellipses are granular. It kinda resembles a tiny metallic crystal.
Are these metal micro-spheres? Or is it a section of some micro-cylindrical object, maybe a tiny bundle of rods? It's hard to infer the 3-D overall shape.
Edited by Minstrel (09/08/08 06:36 PM)
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: hoodbran]
#8898213 - 09/08/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
hoodbran said: Fossil hydrocarbon? I have a sample from the Loveland field, CO, USA - from the cretaceous period
It is Cretaceous. No hydrocarbons, though.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Seuss]
#8898236 - 09/08/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Renal calculi from drinking water contaminated with depleted uranium? (I'm reaching here...)
Nope. But it is a small part of a larger animal, a vertebrate.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8898267 - 09/08/08 07:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said: The B&W pic's resolution shows that the ellipses are granular. It kinda resembles a tiny metallic crystal.
Are these metal micro-spheres? Or is it a section of some micro-cylindrical object, maybe a tiny bundle of rods? It's hard to infer the 3-D overall shape.
You are seeing x-sections through spheres. The spheres are composed of small crystals. The crystals are rich in metal (iron) and also sulphur.
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8898568 - 09/08/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think I got it:
It's meteoric.
EDIT: so baked The grain pattern reminded me of the exotic crystals found in meteors. Though it's still plausable, I figure...
Edited by Minstrel (09/08/08 08:44 PM)
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8898605 - 09/08/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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In retrospect, it might be terrestrial. Maybe volcanic. Some sort of energetic eruption forced this metal in the liquid phase into the air, where surface tension pulled it into a sphere, and it cooled fast, hence the very small grain size. The U makes me think it might be terrestrial, since it's pretty abundant. Anyways, these spheres became trapped in a matrix (rock, sediment, such), where it effectively became a metallic 'fossil'. A meteoric origin of the spheres could also follow this regime.
Maybe.....?
Edited by Minstrel (09/08/08 08:45 PM)
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8898630 - 09/08/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Awww.... I just noticed your hint about it being of biological origin. Disregard those last two posts.
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8900023 - 09/09/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is it part of a dinosaur's tooth?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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automan
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8901847 - 09/09/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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i just have one question.
does it come from above the shoulder (head and/or neck) of a mammal?
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8901979 - 09/09/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not a tooth, but it is from a dinosaur.
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Ferris
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8901999 - 09/09/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm gonna guess that it's a fossilized zygote undergoing meiotic cell division that has had a u-series done on it.
That's the best I can come up with. The aberrations at the sides of the circle kind of kill the idea, but I have no idea what happens to an egg after millions of years. I think it's about the right scale at least though.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: automan]
#8902003 - 09/09/08 01:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
automan said: i just have one question.
does it come from above the shoulder (head and/or neck) of a mammal?
That's two questions, like the post before it. My last response answers your second question. As for the first, I'm not sure what part of the animal (a Triceratops) it's from.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Ferris]
#8902015 - 09/09/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fossil zygotes have been found. This isn't one of them, nor are any known from vertebrates.
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zouden
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8902732 - 09/09/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you're not sure what part it comes from, then it must be something which is present all over the animal. Like a bundle of nerve fibres. But I'm really thrown by the iron-rich spheres! It's not dinosaur blood is it?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Ferris
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8902788 - 09/09/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ya, the iron and silicon are what are throwing me off, since I can't think of any body part/organ/etc would contain those elements. Are they just part of the mineralization process? Are they iron and silicate oxides?
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8914786 - 09/11/08 07:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said: If you're not sure what part it comes from, then it must be something which is present all over the animal. Like a bundle of nerve fibres. But I'm really thrown by the iron-rich spheres! It's not dinosaur blood is it?
It's funny that you should say that, because the spheres have been identified as dinosaur blood, and the reason I took this image is that it disproves this.
The image is of an osteone, one of the tiny channels that run through bones. In life the capillaries in the osteones supply blood to bone cells. osteones also house nerve fibers. This is what osteones look like in a thin section through another dinosaur bone, in this case Miasaurus:

The original image showed a close up of an osteone in a radioactive fragment of Triceratops bone. This osteone has been filed in with minerals deposited by groundwater flowing through it: the yellow material in the colored image is uranium silicate, the white circles are iron sulfide or pyrite. The blue are is the original bone, composed of calcium phosphate.
The interesting thing about this osteone is that it has been cracked and the two sides of it displaced, presumably as the bone was crushed by the weight of sediments deposited on top of it. The pyrite spheres straddle the two sides of the osteone but are not displaced by it, proving that they formed after the osteone craked. Such cracking would have taken place long after the dinosaur died, proving that the pyrite formed late, and could not be remnants of blood cells. It's hard to tell when the uranium silicate was deposited, but as the tiny pyrite crystals are surrounded by it and are growing in it, it either formed at the same time as the pyrite or before it.
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Ferris
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8914918 - 09/11/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hm, I was thinking bones for calcium, iron in blood, so I google-imaged bone marrow. At least I was in the same area on that vein of thought.
So you don't even have an educated guess as to where the pyrite and uranium silicate come from or what they might mean? Mineralogy is something that I know nothing about.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Ferris]
#8915056 - 09/11/08 08:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The uranium originated in granite that was weathering away to the west of where the dinosaur was buried, during the first uplift of the Rockies. Oxidized uranium is water soluble while reduced uranium is not. Groundwater carried the oxidized uranium from where it weathered in the mountains to where the dinosaur was buried, where it encountered a reducing environment-- possibly created by the slow decay of the dinosaur's soft tissues-- where it precipitated (pyrite also forms under reducing conditions). It is possible that some of the iron and sulphur originated in dinosaur tissues, or they could have ben carried in in groundwater as well.
This particular bone was about 1% uranium-- which I discovered is enough for it to sustain a chain reaction when bombarded by enough thermal neutrons, as in the core of a nuclear reactor.
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Hematite]
#8915131 - 09/11/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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>This particular bone was about 1% uranium-- which I discovered is enough for it to sustain a chain reaction when bombarded by enough thermal neutrons, as in the core of a nuclear reactor.
Really? Even though this 1% is natural U238 which cannot sustain a chain reaction? Doesn't U238 not release any neutrons when fissioning, and hence, cannot sustain it's own reaction? Doesn't it need to be U235, and even if that 1% was all U235, doesn't there need to be enough to cause criticality?
U238 will fission if hit with fusion neutrons, I know (as in a thermonuclear bomb's tamper/case), but those neutrons must come from an outside source.
I bet Seuss will know for sure.
Edited by Minstrel (09/11/08 09:04 PM)
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Ferris
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8915201 - 09/11/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bombarding the U238 with neutrons causes neutron absorption, temporarily converting the material to U239, which is a fissible isotope
EDIT: ah, I guess you understand that much
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Edited by Ferris (09/11/08 09:16 PM)
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Minstrel
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8915277 - 09/11/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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As I understand, it is the difference between fissile and fissionable. The former can chain react, the latter can't.
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Ferris
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8915321 - 09/11/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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fissile. That's the word I was going for.
I suspect that you don't need a chain reaction to occur for power production, although I wouldn't quote me on that.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Minstrel]
#8915396 - 09/11/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said: >This particular bone was about 1% uranium-- which I discovered is enough for it to sustain a chain reaction when bombarded by enough thermal neutrons, as in the core of a nuclear reactor.
Really? Even though this 1% is natural U238 which cannot sustain a chain reaction? Doesn't U238 not release any neutrons when fissioning, and hence, cannot chain react? Doesn't it need to be U235, and doesn't there need to be enough to cause criticality?
Seuss?
"Sustained chain reaction" was a poor choice of words, you're right. What I should have said is that when bombarded my slow neutrons, the bone produces enough of its own neutrons to boost substantially the rate of fission in it. When it came out of the reactor it was more loaded with fission products than could be explained by the reactor's neutron flux alone. So there was a chain reaction, but a self-quenching one.
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: Ferris]
#8915437 - 09/11/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Bombarding the U238 with neutrons causes neutron absorption, temporarily converting the material to U239, which is a fissible isotope
EDIT: ah, I guess you understand that much
238 also can undergo fission directly, but neutron capture is more likely with slow (thermal) neutrons. 235 does not undergo fission with fast neutrons while 238 does.
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N2loma
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: zouden]
#8935910 - 09/15/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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bone?
-------------------- "So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/ If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed Good Guitars Don't Cry
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Hematite
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Re: Mystery pic [Re: N2loma]
#8935923 - 09/15/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes
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