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Offlinerba
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Registered: 02/24/08
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: sealorcawhale]
    #8886050 - 09/06/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sealorcawhale said:
someone once said, hell is not a place you go if your not a christian, It's the failure to achieve your lifes greatest ambition.




See, this would be interpreting the bible as a myth.  This is all I am suggesting, that the bible is a myth.  I will not die and go to hell if I don't repent my sins to a religious authority. 

I agree, if I go around acting like an ass and do not take accountability for my actions then I will ultimately not be happy.  This is communicated in an allegorical way in the bible and I think that is fine.  It is not however, to be taken literally.

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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Registered: 05/13/08
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: theshiz777]
    #8886087 - 09/06/08 10:20 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Im not a Christian, but I feel that many aetheists on this board are unfair on their attacks against them. I have read about use of cannabis and a. muscaria though in it's roots. Such as the anointing oil beind canabis and not calamus(which was a mistranslation), as well as the last supper containing amanita.

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Offlinerba
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: mofo]
    #8886106 - 09/06/08 10:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Gee rba, I was wondering why people feel the need to mock peoples' most personal spiritual convictions on a bulletin board about psychedelic mushrooms.  When people post threads with titles like "Religion and Other Fairy Tales" the faithful are bound to be tempted.  What do you expect?  Politeness seems to be a lost art.




I would hope for an intellectually honest discussion about the story that the OP posted.  I know from experience not to expect this, because as was clearly elucidated in that very thread - the view that this stuff didn't happen is not the mainstream view.  Some people argued devil's advocate, discussing with intellectual honesty the evidence for or against a historical Jesus.  Then we had some literalists who were willing to have a serious discussion and we moved the discussion to PM because I can't have a serious conversation with people who won't read or at the minimum watch videos on a point of view that isn't congruent with theirs.

A lot of the Christians in these threads have been acting as if Jesus existed in the flesh, but then when pressed they concede that the stories were poetry or should be interpreted as "spiritual teachings" (exactly what I am saying).

I don't know if you were referring to me specifically when you said that politeness seems to be a lost art, but people should be able to have a serious, intellectually honest discussion without being trolled.  In this thread, I am essentially asking if we're being trolled and what is the motivation for being on a forum of this nature.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: MisterMuscaria]
    #8886258 - 09/06/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree with those who claim it is a mistranslation. Calamus with its TMA mescaline precursor makes a whole lot more sense being absorbed transdermally than cannabis oil. Cannabis doesn't lend itself to states that mescaline elicits no matter what the dosage, an high psychedelic states make a lot more sense when you grasp the set and setting of the Holy of Holies in the Tenach (OT).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinerba
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8886274 - 09/06/08 10:58 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Mark,

Nice post, I agree with it and enjoyed it.  I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the 3rd paragraph of what you wrote:

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I met a famous priest, Fr. John Maloney, who taught Patrictic theology and lectured widely in the 70s. He shocked little old church ladies by mentioning his acid trips. In the 60s, there were others. History continues, including Christian history. Non-trippers have NO idea what a trip is and ifone is a Christian, one's Christian trip will be deepened not damaged by entheogens. Any confusion means that their Christian trip is superficially intellectual-emotional and never was a manifestation of Spirit (Being) to begin with.





Particularly when you said that the Christian Trip will be deepened not damaged by Entheogens.  How is this possible?  I obviously can not go out and perform an experiment where I give 30 biblical literalists 5grams in silent darkness and 30 biblical literalists placebo in silent darkness and see how many from each group start to question a literal interpretation of the bible.

I remember a trip where I was lying on my couch for an hour or so waiting for the 'shrooms to kick in and I started looking at a sticker on my water bottle.  It kept changing forms, one minute it'd look like a zebra, then the next it'd look like a lion, then the next it'd look like a man, and so forth..  This theme of "forms" persisted throughout the trip.  The next day I woke up and was like "What was up with the forms?"

I did a google search, and that's how I discovered
plato.. Which seemed good until I read the criticisms against him (3rd man), which led me to Plotinus and Jung.. 

This is with having no knowledge of Plato and his theory of forms and by the time I got to Jung I felt I had a deep understanding of archetypes and the shadow which previously were concepts I couldn't quite grasp and Plotinus is just amazing but I felt that after the trip I was better able to initially grasp concepts like the emanations and things like that..

At no point did I start thinking "Gee, you know what?  I think Noah's ark really happened!!" - but I was in my opinion led to schools of thought that helped me to better explain my experience.  I am curious as to why you think the entheogenic experience would strengthen the Christian trip when it is nothing more than myth.  Don't you at some point have to start looking for truth and deeper meaning?

Voltaire said "If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities."

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Offlinerba
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: theshiz777]
    #8886309 - 09/06/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It is true, drugs should not be abused.  I'm with Terence's idea of high doses infrequently and I'm a lot happier like that than I was just taking drugs all the time.  I think drugs are a lot more significant than just something that God put here for our amusement.  Even if that were the case and these things were here for our amusement, there is a lot more rational explanation than to say God put it there.  We have already addressed evolution in other threads, including the concepts of coevolution and convergent evolution.  Wouldn't occam's razor suggest that an all-knowing supreme being put a bunch of drugs on earth while disguising them as species that evolved is a bit of a ridiculous theory?  I say yes.

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Offlinesealorcawhale
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: rba]
    #8886325 - 09/06/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

so your saying Jesus didn't appear in the flesh.  :lighter:
where is the evidence to say he did not exist?
Many many people believe in Jesus.
people come to the shroomery for all sorts of reasons.
One of them to find out more about Mushrooms and themselves. :tongue2:


--------------------
:hummer::matrix2::hummer:
:calledajoke:
:banghead:

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Offlinerba
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: theshiz777]
    #8886352 - 09/06/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Oh and I forgot to mention, even if God created all these entheogens, the problem that I have with the bible is that they are all referenced in code.  Drugs in the bible are called things like apples and pillars and all spoken of in metaphor.  This causes literalists to think that entheogens can be marginalized because they are not explicitly glorified in the bible, when the reality is if you can see that the bible is a metaphor or myth you can see that entheogens do play a role.

I'm not saying the bible has absolutely zero historical truth, but it is like a science-fiction story from 2000 years ago.  It intermeshes historically real places with metaphor.  It is like Lovecraft's books where he made up a very powerful spell book called the Necronomicon, but then to make it seem really weird he has an actual historical person as the author of it, has an actual historical person translate it, and claims that to this day a translation can be found in Harvard's library. 

It was written to seem real.  Doesn't make it anything more than a good story with encoded spiritual teachings.

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Offlinerba
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: sealorcawhale]
    #8886453 - 09/06/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Evidence that Jesus did not exist in the Flesh...

For one, read the threads on Christianity that have been here for the past week or so.  Why do I have to post the same stuff over and over again?  Certainly you can do some of your own research.  You do know that there is evidence that historical Jesus did not exist, right? Just declaring that he did without even reading evidence to the contrary feels like I'm being trolled. Why should I have to find it for you to help you do your homework?

Since I am feeling generous, I'll help anyways  Countless people have written evidence.  There are dozens of books on the subject.

here is a book that the authors put on the Internet for free:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GRv2FT6QPvgC&dq=astrotheology+and+shamanism&pg=PP1&ots=EfXR2xrKCr&sig=skW9XAmiG0UeDz9vRrQ49oN27KA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Read pages 15-32.

Also, a book by people maybe more on your wavelength would be:

Rod of Jesse: On the Jesus of the Gospels and Doubt of his Existence (2008), by: Ernet G. Werner - the author is a former Pastor, former Minister, and former member of the Cornell University Chaplains' Staff, who questions the validity of the historical Jesus.  He gets into sun worship, fertility cults, and entheogen.  He goes through the Gospels and the bible in an attempt to find evidence for a living man, and concludes there is none. 

You could also read The Jesus Mysteries, by Timothy Freke (2006).  Claims that Jesus was a metaphor taught to initiates before letting the adepts in on the truth behind the myth.

Maybe you'd prefer:

Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha, and Christ Unveiled by Acharya S (2005) - This book tackles the stunning correlations of Krishna, Buddha, and Christ.  Debunks a lot of the criticism by biblical literalists who suggest that the theory of historical jesus is not on solid academic foundation.  She shows that Krishna, Christ, and Buddha are all the same, namely, anthropomorphisms of the sun. Additionally, this book shows that many of the early documents about Jesus are forgeries AND furthermore pretty thoroughly debunks the historical jesus theory, showing a litany of evidence suggesting that Jesus did not exist.

As Mark and others have said here, evidence suggests that a historical miraculous man like Jesus Christ as he appears in the bible did not exist..

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: rba]
    #8886533 - 09/06/08 11:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are described as antichrist by the Word of God:

2Jo 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1John4:1-3
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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Offlinesealorcawhale
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: rba]
    #8886582 - 09/06/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Very interesting. Thanks for your info.  i will do some research however many people will confirm that,  God enriches their lives also.
:banghead:  :gum:


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Offlinerba
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Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 66
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: fivepointer]
    #8886645 - 09/06/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

So?  All that quote does is scare people away from examining any of the evidence that might suggest that historical jesus did not exist for fear of being the anti-christ, whatever the consequences of that may be.  I hope that the people who have asked for sources or links or books still read them out of curiosity, whether they believe what I am saying or not, rather than ignore it out of fear that they might believe Jesus didn't exist if they look at the evidence with intellectual honesty.

All you're doing is creating fear and dissuading people from pursuing intellectual honesty.  The church has a long history of doing this.

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Offlinesealorcawhale
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: rba]
    #8886876 - 09/06/08 01:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I will read and it shell not taint my Faith for it is strong.

Thankyou.
:cool:


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Offlinesealorcawhale
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: sealorcawhale]
    #8886885 - 09/06/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

such excellent reading thankyou very much rba :smile: enjoying it.


--------------------
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:calledajoke:
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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: rba]
    #8887074 - 09/06/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

rba said:
I agree, if I go around acting like an ass and do not take accountability for my actions then I will ultimately not be happy.




Don't buy into the self-fulfilling prophecy that is the karma myth!

Quote:

rba said:

Particularly when you said that the Christian Trip will be deepened not damaged by Entheogens.  How is this possible?  I obviously can not go out and perform an experiment where I give 30 biblical literalists 5grams in silent darkness and 30 biblical literalists placebo in silent darkness and see how many from each group start to question a literal interpretation of the bible.

At no point did I start thinking "Gee, you know what?  I think Noah's ark really happened!!" - but I was in my opinion led to schools of thought that helped me to better explain my experience.  I am curious as to why you think the entheogenic experience would strengthen the Christian trip when it is nothing more than myth.  Don't you at some point have to start looking for truth and deeper meaning?




There's a difference between believing in the whole of the Bible and associated trappings of organized religions, and believing in the direct experience of Christ.  The former may get obliterated in the void of questioning that follows one's first psychedelic experience, but the latter is strengthened through gnosis.  Be it Nirvana, Christ, Buddha, or Allah... all are merely human interpretations of the indescribable as found at the heart of entheogens.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineIdiot
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: deCypher]
    #8887189 - 09/06/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

theshizz777 said:
All of these natural feel good things that GOD put on this earth is for enjoyment.  He wants us to feel good, and have fun.  I do think that when people become glutons over "drugs" or anything else realy.




God didn't put everything on earth for our enjoyment.  Even the story of Adam and Eve has God placing something we should stay away from (i.e. the apple tree).  But that's just a story, what other things should we stay away from;  poisonous plants, bears, guns, the center most point of any large body of water without a boat.

I had more to say but i have food that needs eating sitting in front of me so....yeah.


--------------------

Customize your Shroomery experience!
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Offlinerba
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: deCypher]
    #8887491 - 09/06/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Cypher,

Interesting point.  I think in a way you are right.  Although I usually attempt to be a good person, I probably am often hurtful or at the minimum do things that upset other people and do not give it any consideration.  I do not necessarily believe that a cosmic force is going to rain down on me and ruin my life because of it :smile:

In my experience, I find that if I try to do right by other people then it is rewarding. I either feel better just because I helped someone or I have made a friend that would be more likely to help me in the future. 

This is what Christians tell me generally - If you try to live "As Jesus would" you will have a happy and peaceful life.  Forget any evidence that suggests he may or may not exist - his path is the way to happiness I am told. This one particular guy I spoke with at length and he keeps repeating a Ghandi quote where he said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians" - in response to my lists and lists of awful things Christians have done.

And this I somewhat I agree with.  Although I think Jesus does not exist and damn near conclusive evidence supports this, the Jesus in the New Testament is not such a bad guy and he does in my opinion have good morals.  To me it's the same as worshiping Will Smith because he kicked a lot of ass in Bad Boys II, though.

To your second point - this is almost what I am saying.  Therein lies the deeper trip, when you realize all these Gods are anthropomorphisms of the sun and the entheogens.  As above, so below.  People have had this figured out for thousands of years.  Sadly, the minority of people (the adepts) realize this and, as is apparent on this forum, the masses continue to quote the superficial and the myth as if it were the deeper meaning. 

When we get beyond the question of "did Jesus exist" or "did Jesus say this or that" - and accept that no, he did not exist, and therefor didn't say anything, then we can begin asking the real questions.  "Ok, what did happen"... "Ok, what does this mean"... "Ok, the entheogenic experience is the mystical experience, what does this mean?"  Then we can get beyond debating biblical semantics on the P&S forum which would be huge intellectual progress.

Either that, or we can discuss whether or not I am the anti-christ for telling people that Jesus never existed in the flesh.  Or we can discuss whether evolution happened. Or we can discuss whether babies who die at birth go to hell or not.  Or maybe discuss whether or not Socrates and Plato existed.  I am not making this stuff up, these conversations have really happened in this forum in the past week.  It is stupid and very superficial.  I made this thread to honestly inquire about whether or not we were just being trolled or if people really think like this.  In the latter case, something needs to be done so that we can move on into the deeper meaning, into the age of aquarius, whatever you want to call it.  All I can think to do is to provide links and reading material with evidence from original scriptures about what really happened.

Other alternatives would be to start putting people on ignore and only focus on the threads that are not overrun with biblical literalism. That doesn't quite seem right but I can quickly see it heading in that direction because usually Zealots don't listen or don't respond to evidence.  A few people here have at least said they were willing to at least give alternative viewpoints a chance - but it has already been with the condition that under no circumstances would they change their viewpoint.  Sigh.  Intellectual honesty be dammed, we have to get into heaven right!! I apologize if I am being overly harsh or overly general. 


It must be different for people in religious families who would upset people by changing their mind.  No one I know gives the slightest shit what I believe so I'm free to think whatever I want.

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: rba]
    #8887626 - 09/06/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

rba said:
Quote:

mofo said:
Gee rba, I was wondering why people feel the need to mock peoples' most personal spiritual convictions on a bulletin board about psychedelic mushrooms.  When people post threads with titles like "Religion and Other Fairy Tales" the faithful are bound to be tempted.  What do you expect?  Politeness seems to be a lost art.




I would hope for an intellectually honest discussion about the story that the OP posted.  I know from experience not to expect this, because as was clearly elucidated in that very thread - the view that this stuff didn't happen is not the mainstream view.  Some people argued devil's advocate, discussing with intellectual honesty the evidence for or against a historical Jesus.  Then we had some literalists who were willing to have a serious discussion and we moved the discussion to PM because I can't have a serious conversation with people who won't read or at the minimum watch videos on a point of view that isn't congruent with theirs.

A lot of the Christians in these threads have been acting as if Jesus existed in the flesh, but then when pressed they concede that the stories were poetry or should be interpreted as "spiritual teachings" (exactly what I am saying).

I don't know if you were referring to me specifically when you said that politeness seems to be a lost art, but people should be able to have a serious, intellectually honest discussion without being trolled.  In this thread, I am essentially asking if we're being trolled and what is the motivation for being on a forum of this nature.





From what I remember of your posts, you've been relatively respectful, but unfortunately, your posts have come on the heels of a number of intentionally inflammatory threads attacking Christians, the christian faith, and religion in general in these past few months.  It is obvious these belligerent threads have struck a nerve with many believers, who have thus been tempted toward retaliation.  I would therefore characterize  whats been going on in P&S lately as a Holy War (of words) or belief war.  Its neither healthy nor productive for anyone who is involved, and one would be wise to refrain from adding fuel to the fire.

Do I think there are trolls here who are only here to preach?  Most likely, as there are mostly likely all sorts of other trolls here as well. I don't think they constitute the majority of the Christians who are posting though.  I think you just underestimate the number of psychedelics users who are also believers.  And when your faith gets mocked or ridiculed, its kind of like talking shit about your momma.  It almost demands a response.

Edited by mofo (09/06/08 05:06 PM)

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Offlinesealorcawhale
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: mofo]
    #8887665 - 09/06/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah it's a bit like that. well said.
i am not interested in any war.
:super:


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Offlinetheshiz777
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Re: Question about Christians here [Re: Idiot]
    #8888826 - 09/06/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The story of Adam and Eve was about GOD testing their loyalty to him.

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