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Offlineshroomizzy
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8866947 - 09/02/08 04:47 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Where as I appreciate your input. I would definitely no disregard the information RR is giving. He is definitely a seasoned veteran and Its rather disrespectful that with his tried and true ways, compared to only readings under your belt, that you could state he has inaccurate information.  We are lucky to have some one as experienced as RR around here.

This sort of got off topic a bit. And perhaps I am HORRIBLE at wording questions the way I think them. If those measurements that I am going to do. 5% gypsum and 10 percent verm to horse poo. Then mixed with straw. Would that measurement change due to the straw being added? or leave it be?


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Offlineshroomizzy
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8866957 - 09/02/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

heh reverse those measurements with the vermiculite and gypsum :cool:


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8867031 - 09/02/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi shroomizzy,

Quote:

Where as I appreciate your input. I would definitely no disregard the information RR is giving. He is definitely a seasoned veteran and Its rather disrespectful that with his tried and true ways, compared to only readings under your belt, that you could state he has inaccurate information.  We are lucky to have some one as experienced as RR around here.




I really don't know where this roomer started that I've never grown mushrooms, oops, yes I do it's from RR :frown:

It is not disrespectful to question how and why things are done...that's the only way we move forward!  And I'm not pretending his info in this regard is incorrect, it is incorrect according to chemistry and scientific fact.  Do you not see adding gypsum is not optimal?  Does it work: yes.  Can it be done better: yes.

And I don't know why everyone thinks growing mushrooms is like some alien concept which has no relation to soil science, microbiology, chemistry, etc, etc.  Everything is the same, once it's understood that everything is the same you can see the interrelationship of everything and things start to fall into place without effort. 

All the experince I have with organic horticulture and microbiology (I work with beneficial microbes and other microbes) and research I cite is directly applicable to growing mushrooms.  I don't have to grow them to know what will and what will not work...or what would work better.


HTH :smile: 

Oh, and if you'd like I won't post in this thread anymore? (that's a nice offer, I'm not tying to be jerk).

Edited by quickpick (09/02/08 05:27 PM)

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Offlineshroomizzy
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8867411 - 09/02/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No, ideas and opinions are always welcome. No need to NOT post. As you said it is how we go forward. So if you have opinions continue to express them.


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8869170 - 09/02/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Dealing with High pH Soils
http://www.heftyseed.com/article-highph.html
Quote:

Gypsum is a pH neutral product that could in time have some impact on soil pH, but if you want quicker results in lowering pH, there's always straight sulfur. Through the addition of sulfur, eventually, sulfuric acid will be formed and pH will begin to go down.




I think the evidence is on your side gypsum doesn't effect PH the way that RR says it does, and in fact unless the PH swing is upward (basic) gypsum will not do anything to prevent it. So it's probibly actually a few different factors, not to do with increasing PH (because study has shown it doesn't swing that way), that make gypsum beneficial.

That said there is no proof that adding gypsum is a bad idea, or that it will not through some alternate factors prevent a reduction in PH. Additionally many mushroom growers world wide emphasize it as an important additive. So have fun with your "beatifical microbes" I frankly must have missed the isle that had them in the local agricultural co-op. I must wonder if they provide the same benefits that has gypsum so revered in the field.

I will agree with you after that there is no evidence that gypsum prevents contams. But that stupid paper you cited earlier is crap, I think you should reread the experimental parameters of the paper and you will find that it doesn't explain much of anything useful about PH.


--------------------
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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8870442 - 09/03/08 08:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey ST,

Yup I've read that page you quote before:

Quote:

Gypsum is a pH neutral product that could in time have some impact on soil pH, but if you want quicker results in lowering pH, there's always straight sulfur. Through the addition of sulfur, eventually, sulfuric acid will be formed and pH will begin to go down.




What they mean is gypsum is neutral (as in it's own pH is neutral) and the most important word here is "could".  And besides what they are saying is that gypsum over a long time may lower pH from the S, which in over use can ruin the media from sulfuric acid.  Either way we don't' want gypsum to lower the pH which it won't do anyway: notice how the paper always says "gypsum and sulfur...".  It never says "gypsum will" or "gypsum does" in reference to pH, that's because gypsum chemical reaction in media is complex and in very rarely will lower pH, and as we don't' want our pH going down I didn't mentioned this aspect of the S from gypsum.

And even if you wanted to use the S from gyspum to lower pH it would take a long time (months and months) IF it ever happens at all...



Quote:

by ST:
I think the evidence is on your side gypsum doesn't effect PH the way that RR says it does, and in fact unless the PH swing is upward (basic) gypsum will not do anything to prevent it. So it's probibly actually a few different factors, not to do with increasing PH (because study has shown it doesn't swing that way), that make gypsum beneficial.




Yes I totally agree. 


Quote:

by ST:
That said there is no proof that adding gypsum is a bad idea, or that it will not through some alternate factors prevent a reduction in PH.




Umm, yes there is and I've posted it like 3 times.  If there is a aluminum in the media and if even a medium amount of gypsum is applied it can release the aluminum as soluble aluminum which could injure the hyphae and myeclium.

And your right gypsum will not prevent a reduction in pH though it can INDUCE a reduction of pH in media via the S.



Quote:

by ST:
Additionally many mushroom growers world wide emphasize it as an important additive. So have fun with your "beatifical microbes" I frankly must have missed the isle that had them in the local agricultural co-op. I must wonder if they provide the same benefits that has gypsum so revered in the field.




Well, my beneficial microbes are vastly different then what your talking  about.  And please, before you dig yourself in deeper, google "Effective Microorganisms" and "Dr. Higa".

To me it seems the only reason they are using gypsum is it's cheap, easy to find and they didn't know it negative aspects (I'd assume they didn't know), they didn't know it won't effect pH, they didn't know it's release of Ca is rather limited in media under 5.5.  And I REALLY hope they don't think gypsum is calcium carbonate (and I hope that was a type-o by RR)...



Quote:

I will agree with you after that there is no evidence that gypsum prevents contams. But that stupid paper you cited earlier is crap, I think you should reread the experimental parameters of the paper and you will find that it doesn't explain much of anything useful about PH.




Oh, I'll respond to your take on that paper soon, I've been working on my response yesterday but I got side tracked.  And suffice it to say, that paper DOES offer a lot of useful insight to optimal pH for mycelium production (weight) and psyliosybin content (%).  I think you are not are seeing it's worth as you are looking past the info...


And thanks for staying civil while disagreeing with me, I very much appreciate it! :smile:  I hope you have a great day! :smile:




Oh, here's the whole quote in proper context:
http://www.heftyseed.com/article-highph.html
Quote:

Gypsum is a pH neutral product that could in time have some impact on soil pH, but if you want quicker results in lowering pH, there's always straight sulfur. Through the addition of sulfur, eventually, sulfuric acid will be formed and pH will begin to go down.

As an example, I was at Clemson University's website the other day, and for gardeners, they suggest using sulfur to lower pH. The problem is that they say it takes almost 1000 pounds of sulfur per acre to reduce soil pH by one point. In other words, if you wanted to take some ground with a pH of 8.5 and reduce it to 7.5, you would need 1000 pounds of sulfur per acre. You might laugh, but there are actually some people who do this a little at a time, usually by adding ammonium sulfate. For example, if you applied 1000 pounds of ammonium sulfate per acre, you would have 210 pounds of nitrogen and 240 pounds of sulfur. This should result in lowering the pH of your soil approximately 2 tenths of a point or better. However, you also have over 200 pounds of nitrogen, so you'd need to raise a pretty good corn crop to use that up.

Again, use gypsum and sulfur to either lower pH or at least correct some of the problems that occur from high pH's. One word of caution, though, this process takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. Therefore, until you get things completely straightened out, you'll want to pick varieties that can handle high pH soils. Consult your seed provider for their best recommendations.



Edited by quickpick (09/03/08 09:55 AM)

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8870464 - 09/03/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

edit:

ST, I just realized you and I agree on the page you referenced that gypsum could lower pH over a long, long time period.  Far too long for use in mushroom culture, and we don't want the pH going down anyway.

Oh, and another reason not to add gypsum to media under a pH of 5.5, besides it's ability to release aluminum, is the release of Ca is lowered when gypsum is in a low pH media, sure it still releases Ca but there are better sources which release Ca without the caveats of gypsum.  That's why the page you referenced is all about fixing high pH soils over like pH of 8.

:smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/03/08 08:29 AM)

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Offlineboomer q
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8870480 - 09/03/08 08:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

.... great job, im gonna use it the same way ive been using it, because it helps yields


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: boomer q]
    #8870485 - 09/03/08 08:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

boomer q,

Yes if you've had good results with it then use it if you like, now that your aware of it's limits and what it will and will not do.  But, that said, there are better options which IMO may increase your yeilds even more without the negative stuff of gyspum.

To each their own as long as they know the scientific facts so they can make an informed decision :smile:

Have a nice one :smile:

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Offlineboomer q
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8870498 - 09/03/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

what would you add instead of gypsum that you think would increase yields?  just curious... my usual ingredients are coir, straw, verm, gypsum and used coffee grounds.... what would YOU change?


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: boomer q]
    #8870565 - 09/03/08 08:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey quickpick. I am trying to figure out if you are here to learn or to teach or are you here to question the things that are proven just for conversation or some kind of demented mental inferiority complex? So RR called you out and says you have never cultivated a cube and I tend to believe him because by your own accusations about scientific data and all, I have yet to see any scientific data (pictures, etc.) on any of your "grows". So, if you are here to learn about mycology, well then, learn. But please do not spread bad info. Good day Sir.

and this shows qualities of a cheese eating RAT!
Quote:

quickpick said:
Hey  rev 766,

You may want to read my post regarding what gypsum really is (hint: it's calcium sulfate).  But thanks for calling me a:

Quote:

it's pointless telling someone they are a dumbfuck after RR does. he's pretty effective at bashing that last nail into the coffin.




To RogerRabbitIs he going to be banned too? :wink:  I have not one time used profanity towards another member and you threaten to ban me? You, ST, rev776 and some other guy[\b]> I don't remember have all cursed at me and called me names.  All I have ever done is disprove what is considered 'fact', which it obviously was not.  Once I get bashed sure, I get defensive, who wouldn't?  But I've NEVER CALLED ANYONE A NAME OR CURSED AT THEM...so why ban me????




HTH :smile:


Honestly I would hate to be caught in a bad situation with you, by the sound of it you will tell sumthin'!!

:rofl2:


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: boomer q]
    #8871127 - 09/03/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey boomer q,

NOTE: I haven not yet tested these amendments with growing p.cube (I will this month), but IMO they will work very well, just don't over apply the liquid calcium.

In place of gypsum I'd add a Ca amendment and not worry too much about S because it's usually in high enough quantity in most media.  I would use something immediately available as we grow fungals for such a short time.  Or an amendment which is plant based and thus faster reacting in most cases vs. minerals, especially if it is 'fine' screen (near 100% though a 60 mesh screen) or better yet micronized.

For immediately available liquid organic Ca, which you can order online or get at any 'grow' store I'd suggest the liquid MetaNaturals Organic Calcium.  It's derived from calcitic lime (with vinegar I believe), and it contains humic acid (derived from kelp) which is a fungal food and help chelate the nutrients within the sub (or any medium), feeds microbes and adds humus.

Or I'd use so called "red algae", but it's known as "marl" or "marel" (both English), "maërl" (French), or "Lithothamnium" (scienfitic name: "Lithothamnium Calcareum")  .  It is found in many Ag garden shops and stores.  Sometimes it's known as calcium algae.  It is very good at releasing it's Ca and if you get it micronzied it just amazing...but even a 'fine' grade works very, very well.  A bonus of marl is it has a little calcium carbonate, yet won't raise pH in short term due to it's low TNP ("Total Neutralizing Power"), but, it does serve to 'stabilize' or 'buffer' pH in terms of not really increasing it and helping to prevent a decrease in pH.

If your interested in marl I know of a French supplier who has a US distributor of micronized marl (though a 35 micron screen!).  It's about $20.00 per kilo and they offer up to 40 kilo bins.  But make sure it's the "unsanitized" version as marl is most often used in cosmetics and the sanitized version has harmful chemicals.

But, marl has the following nutrients: calcium (approx. 34%), magnesium (approx. 3.3%) and iron (approx. 2.1%).  So, I'm not sure about the Mg around 3%.  Yet, calcitic lime is often used in cultivation of p.cube and c.lime contains around 2% Mg, so marl is barley above what c.lime has in terms of Mg.  As RR says too much Mg is bad but Stamets says a little Mg is OK (2%, p.230, TMC).  Considering how much Ca marl contains we would only apply a little to see Ca benefits in the mushrooms.  Those two issues (low Mg, and high Ca, hence low application requirements) should make marl safe to use as it's overall Mg addition to sub will be very low.  IMO marl is a great option and superrior to gypsum in every way, save the Mg content.  But, I'll test with a sub using marl this month and we will see :smile:

What I take from the previous paragraph is a little Mg is fine, about 2% or less within the amendments according to Stamets.  The Mg in marl is about 3% but the Mg from marl has a slower recation then the Mg from lime like calcitic lime as far as I understand.  Regardless, we only need to apply a little marl to see benefit so the Mg content, IMO, should not be an issue.

As long as my order of micronzied marl comes in on time (it's not at garden or AG shops around here) I will use marl in a few subs and MetaNaturals Organic Calicum in a few other subs and gyspum in a few subs and no Ca source in a few subs.  But that will not give too much useful info as I'm using multi-spore, it'd be best to use an isolated mushroom for all the testing.  Once I have a nice clone I'll re-do the testing :smile:

HTH :smile:

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: UncleMike]
    #8871234 - 09/03/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Edit:

I removed my post to UncleB as my response was as off topic as his post.  I apologize if I lowered the commentary with this post I am now removing, for those who didn't read it, I was polite in my un-edited response.

:smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/03/08 12:07 PM)

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8871239 - 09/03/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

OMG enough with this crap already!


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8871248 - 09/03/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

At All:

This thread has drifted so far off topic I feel it's best I don't post in it anymore.  Besides, I've already posted all the relevent info I feel is needed so it's up to everyone to make their own minds up.

Thanks and I don't want to have hard feelings to people, things get hot when standards are questioned, that's the way it is in all of society and life. 

I have no hard feelings to anyone, RR included, and I respect everyone, RR included and I'd like to work together with everyone, RR included.

I hope everyone has a nice day! :smile:

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8871695 - 09/03/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

what so no rebuttal to that lousy paper you cited?

Anyway thanks for the suggestions. I know that gypsum may not be the "optimal" substance for it's use, but it is better than nothing. How it fares compared to the alternatives you proposed remains to be seen but I am pretty sure it is the calcium that is why it is so revered by mushroom growers so your alternatives should work (who knows sulfate could do something).


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
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- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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