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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: allan]
    #6816090 - 04/21/07 01:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

If I'm young to you then you must be ancient.:grin:

I'm in Southern OR. in the best little hippy town in the state.:mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineallan
Stranger
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Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 17 years, 16 days
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6816197 - 04/21/07 02:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, not ancient, only 4 or 5 months older than you.

If you're in So. OR and as far into your dotage as you are you probably know a bit about the So OR Barter Fair. Maybe...?

I'm in the People's Republic of Eugene.


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“Love is an attempt to change a piece of a dream-world into reality.”

~ Henry David Thoreau

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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
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Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 92
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6816215 - 04/21/07 02:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0402/resources_who.html
There is a link to an article in national geographic about plants communicating to each other and certain mites. I read a full article in the magazine about this though i couldn't find anything more on the magazines website. It wasn't actually the one I was looking for but its says basically the same thing. Unfortunately its a bit short but its pretty pertinent to what we are talking about. Though I didn't really read all of the pages so hopefully nobody else put this up. Though I guess for some of you just because plants communicate and have electrical impulses which react to stimulus doesn't prove a soul. If I could prove things had a soul I would have a Nobel prize and I wouldn't be talking on this forum! It seems people get very emotionally invested in the views of reality on here and these debates turn to be more motivated by not admitting to yourself and others that you are wrong then what the actual debate is about. Just because you can debate the best doesn't mean you are right. We are all pretty clueless no matter what means we use to make our views about reality. I guess the best scientific evidence that I know of for the existence of the soul (besides maybe all the OOBE/NDE research) is quantum physics, if you believe that humans have souls then plants must too since we are irrefutably all connected, but then rocks and plastic and everything else would have a soul so its pretty redundant at that point.
I do think plants are more aware then most people give them credit for, after all they are the oldest living things on the earth. They have had the most time to evolve so maybe we just don't fully understand their physical organs as well as we think we do, we are expecting them to be to much like animals. How can anyone really say what going on in the world of a plant. Sure I cant prove they have a mind or soul but then I cant really prove anyone else I meet does, I cant prove that this isn't just a big dream I created. Just because you cant prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Science expects that everything can be empirically proven but that seems to me to be a pretty sweeping assumption.

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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
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Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: allan]
    #6816221 - 04/21/07 02:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


That's just it we cannot make any claim to know reality. It's subjective and each person views and experiences it differently because there is no certainty of accurate perception of reality. It all goes through our personal filters and we come up with our personal likeness of reality. This can be influenced by our mood during the day for instance.




From my experiance a "bad" trip on shrooms makes it impossible to perceive and think at all. But then as your mind starts to function again you become coherent and aware but other functions of your mind which distort your perception for survival have yet to kick in. Borders between things seem to dissolve, you see everything as a whole instead of instantly categorizing things. You realize that most of the differences between you and other people are exagerated. It made me realize the state of mind im usually in, I was able to realize my own perception. I remembering realizing that everytime I experiance or analyze something I instantly filter that experiance into perspective with myself. I also realized how we attach our opinions and our actions to our identities when in reality were empty reflectors..we use this shit to build an imaginations of ourselves. unno about everyone else but I dont think shrooms help you see the true external reality only the internal reality. Basically they make you lose your mind so you can realize how it works.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
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Registered: 12/09/05
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Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6816238 - 04/21/07 02:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

oh ya the fact that plants use chemicals to communicate is an interesting aside note to people who believe psychedelics allow people to communicate with plant spirits. But thats a whole other can of worms. I realize synthetically created psychedelics have been known to produce the same effects but maybe the psychedelic chemicals are just the means of inter species communication that presents itself in a spiritual form? Maybe opening a door to some kind of non local plant group mind? Ha well I'm sure this idea is quite a piss off to the more scientific people and I'm not saying its true just an interesting idea. However to say that all these stories of shamans and flakes talking to plants on psychedelics or while sober is just in their minds, well quantum physics is showing that everything is in our mind so that is pretty redundant too. To me the fact that psychedelics can present a view of reality that seems more real has more more philosophical value in that it shows all lenses we use to perceive are incomplete and insubstantial. Rather then the idea that they give a view which is infallible and actually more real. It always comes down to "nothing is true, everything is permitted"

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6816506 - 04/21/07 05:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That's just it we cannot make any claim to know reality. It's subjective and each person views and experiences it differently because there is no  certainty of accurate perception of reality.




We cannot make any claim to know reality? If we form a theory as to the nature of reality, and then we act in accordance with that theory, and reality responds in a manner that demonstrates the predictive value of the theory, then perhaps one could not make the claim that one "knows reality", but rather that one has a working model of reality.

You've taken this to the extreme that one is incapable of knowing reality, but this still does not demonstrate that one is capable of taking an approach to their consciousness and how the mind effects our experience of reality in order to more fully know reality for what it is.

Its simple. If my mind is not processing as many thoughts, then my focus has more awareness to direct into experiencing the sensory data that my eyes are providing me. Please do not assert that one cannot know if one is thinking more or less or if one is more aware of what one is seeing or not, because we've already been there, and it isn't a great place to be. :smirk:

The nature of our existance demonstrates that we cannot adopt an "objective viewpoint" on reality, as we are aspects of reality. We've established that. You're asserting that we have no means by which to know if our perception of reality accurately reflects reality, yet I have expressed (Veritas did as well) that if one's deal has predictive value, then we might not know that it truly represents reality, but clearly we find ourselves on a path of becoming more aware as to the nature of reality.

You question that reality as I directly perceive it to (in another thread you referred to "direct perception" as an oxymoron, but it is not. To directly perceive reality means to be consciously aware of one's perception - directly referring to the notion that one does not have a layer of obstructive thought processes interferring with one's awareness of one's perceptions. Remove the obstructions and there is perception - the closest humans are to understanding reality.

Now, if I have an experience of these obstructions being dissolved and yet am still capable of exercising predictive power regarding reality, then I am going to feel safe in assuming that I am directly perceiving reality. You state that there is no certainty, yet I

Quote:


It all goes through our personal filters and we come up with our personal likeness of reality. This can be influenced by our mood during the day for instance.




Of course it can. Yet not if one has dissolved these obstructions, temporarily through chemicals or simply a chance sober experience, or willfully over time and with conscious thought. For example, I can become very upset if poor decisions are being made at work and reason is not prevailing, yet this does not interfere with my understanding of reality. I am simply upsetting myself. My conception of reality hasn't changed because of my mood. Perhaps this is different for others, yet it isn't the case with me because I aim to be consciously aware of what my senses are perceiving.

I have simply asserted that reality is aware due to the fact that all I know is reality and it is aware, as I am aware. I am reality. We take observations pertaining to phenomenon occuring and it provides us with scientific understanding of reality, yet reality is all of this. When one becomes more aware, one becomes more understanding of the nature of awareness - otherwise one wouldn't be conducting a greater degree of awareness.

Awareness is a state of being reality. I apologize if this cannot be objectively transferred, yet it is the nature of awareness. :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6816514 - 04/21/07 05:04 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
You question that reality as I directly perceive it to (in another thread you referred to "direct perception" as an oxymoron, but it is not. To directly perceive reality means to be consciously aware of one's perception - directly referring to the notion that one does not have a layer of obstructive thought processes interferring with one's awareness of one's perceptions. Remove the obstructions and there is perception - the closest humans are to understanding reality.




I realize that this paragraph was starting out saying something and then got sidetracked and never came back out of the paraentheses or back to the original sentence, yet the train of thought is complete, incomplete as it is, and I'm too stoned to even begin to put myself back in that state of mind and like edit it or anything. :stoned: :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 92
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6842237 - 04/27/07 05:23 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes perceptions of reality are a tricky beast alright in the end all we have to back up that our perceptions are correct or even that they are working models is just more perceptions. Like how do we know that our memories are accurate and untampered with? well because our memories assure us that these things dont happen, and well maybe i can find the remote but then maybe the person who implanted my memories put the remote there to correspond to that. Thats a different kind of thing though but just because its a working model of reality doesnt mean its accurate except within a very limited perspective. For example if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, swims and flies like a duck you can eat it and it can be good but its really a goose. Although its a working model and you arent going to poison yourself or anything youre certainly far off from understanding the philosophy of being a goose. That is really rather a limited example as it could be something quite different then a duck or goose on the inside. I dont think you can completely understand reality without being separate from it at some point and well thats just not going to happen no matter how high you get.
I remember reading in a book called the holographic universe that somewhere around half of what we perceive isnt actually governed by stimulus at all but rather what our brains expect we should perceive. This is a pretty staggering thought as perhaps if something is far enough out of our belief structure we literally couldnt perceive it. Say there is an alien or faerie right in front of you, ha, or on the contrary if you believe in these things strongly enough you may honestly perceive things that arent there. This is just wild speculation but perhaps LSD makes it so that more of what you perceive is governed by your expectations instead of stimulus.. or maybe more from real stimulus who can say. Thats a very good read though the holographic universe, and its another good example of what i was talking about with the duck, its not that we are literally in a hologram but something with all the characteristics of one, fractal and what not and more illusionary then we think simply because our sensory organs and brains themselves are part of the illusion. Its a book that uses quantum theory to try and explain "supernatural" things. Really if everything is connected as quantum theory says then its impossible to have perceptions that are separate or objective from what you are trying to perceive.

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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
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Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 92
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6842243 - 04/27/07 05:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

also fireworks god i have to ask who the hell are those two hilarious looking english guys who have pictures of?

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OfflineRedRainDrop
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Registered: 04/08/05
Posts: 941
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8864773 - 09/02/08 08:51 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Plants do have souls.... i have seen it with my own experience, as well as others.....

&feature=related

This perfectly explains it.....


--------------------
Fact: Saving the environment can take centuries
A blow job can take up to 5 minutes.
"When was the last time you heard green peace talk about the immense pleasure you get when you put your penis in someone Else's mouth? " -jonlajoie

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OfflineBoots
Disenchanted
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Plants with Soul [Re: RedRainDrop]
    #8866312 - 09/02/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I don't believe in human souls, there's no reason to believe in plant souls either. The whole thought process behind it just seems ludicrous. In my opinion, the idea of souls was used by religions to coerce people into doing what said religions wanted done.

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