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b3jamboree
yes we have no portabellas
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 423
Loc: 45th Parallel, MI
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse
#8864665 - 09/02/08 07:50 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am still trying to figure out how to provide adequate oxygen to my mushrooms in our greenhouse without letting too much cold winter air in through the vents.
It occurs to me that plants, of course, naturally respire oxygen and 'breathe' in CO2. However I don't think it would be very wise to have a bunch of dirt in the greenhouse as it harbors molds and other microbes that may not be good for the mushrooms, am I wrong?
What about hydroponics, or soil-less mixes for plants?
Any ideas on what plants are more efficient at exchanging CO2 for O?
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tr3eman9
That guy
Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 11
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: b3jamboree]
#8864794 - 09/02/08 09:02 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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i've heard of people planting grass seed into cakes and allowing some grass to grow out.
i don't know if CO2 exchange was the reason though.
-------------------- You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...
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Fungalution
Fellow Shroomer
Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Earth... I think?
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: tr3eman9]
#8864924 - 09/02/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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The hydro idea is a good one. I think the leaf or foliage is the part of the plant that takes care of gas exchange as that is were photosynthesis occurs. So I would assume a plant with large leaves would do a lot of gas exchange compared to a plant with smaller leaves or say a cactus. I may be way off here though. Tomatoes use a lot of water and have a lot of foliage and like a lot of light. There for I would assume they do a lot of photosynthesis and there for would be "eating" a lot of CO2. You could check the Growery and see how much CO2 pot plants eat as I think they have that down to a science over there. If you can't or don't want to grow pot, I believe tomato plants have similar metabolisms and are very easy to grow and are a great candidate for hydroponics. With that said I think it would be easier to just get a small heater and heat the cold outside air coming in your greenhouse. It would probably cost the same in the long run.
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Paresthesia
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 1,090
Loc: Texas
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: Fungalution]
#8865211 - 09/02/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've read that in some places people will suspend reishi mushroom blocks between rows of sugar cane. Sugar cane is a C4 plant, which basically means it's very efficient at taking in carbon from the air, much more so than other crops. The mushrooms benefit from the lower CO2 levels and added oxygen output from the sugar cane.
Corn is also a C4 plant, which may explain the traditional method of growing it with king stropharia mushrooms.
I realize people don't grow corn or sugar cane in greenhouses, of course, but suspending blocks of wood loving mushrooms in the greenhouse might work out pretty well.
Dutch immigrants to the US brought their own intercropping system with them, too. They would grow spinach in raised beds on shelves, and use the space below the shelves for growing button mushrooms where the light requirements are greatly reduced. There's a great market for fresh greens during winter months so I could see this system as having greenhouse potential.
-------------------- "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot
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b3jamboree
yes we have no portabellas
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 423
Loc: 45th Parallel, MI
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: Paresthesia]
#8868955 - 09/02/08 09:57 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thank you very much for the advice and opinions. I have a chef friend who wants me to grow greens for his restaurant along with the mushrooms. I think you are right about more surface are on the leaves the more CO2 is eaten up. I will have to research this further.
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Hotnuts
old hand
Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 3,436
Loc: Wild Blue Yawnder
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: b3jamboree]
#8870726 - 09/03/08 09:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wouldn't worry with bacteria nearly as much as molds blooming in the soil. Pasteurize the soil for a couple of hours prior to planting anything it. If the plants are pre-planted, use copper in the water according to directions to keep the molds at bay.
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Hotnuts
old hand
Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 3,436
Loc: Wild Blue Yawnder
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: Hotnuts]
#8871562 - 09/03/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Keep your eyes peeled for mites too.
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MycoAu
5thKingdomCome
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 1,047
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: Hotnuts]
#8872383 - 09/03/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you can completely segregate one side of the greenhouse from the other, you can pump air from one side the other (both directions in a circular manner) through HEPA filters to prevent cross-contamination while taking full advantage of the gas exchange system.
Obviously, this may be well outside of your financial means in a practically-minded manner, but it's an idea none-the-less.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger
Registered: 02/28/06
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: MycoAu]
#8875245 - 09/04/08 02:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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just use fresh high quality plant soil and start all your plants indoors. then just put plant/block/plant/block...ect.
don't worry about any fancy setups it would all be a waste of time. the more surface area you have, the more places for contams to find a home. and you can't really clean dirt it won't really matter anyway. the bottom line is as long as you monitor your water content in the soil you should be ok. you have to water when the leafs start to go limp, it happens alot slower because of all the humidity.
the key to plants in the chamber is consistant cleaning, and consistant humidity...if you go 2 high your prob gunna have problems. you want just enough humidity to get the job done. and realize the plants are going to alter your readings alot, well thats what i think anyway
-------------------- We were sent to hell for eternity Øh® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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desertturtle
not like the others
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 426
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: makaveli8x8]
#8875341 - 09/04/08 03:59 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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MycoAu
5thKingdomCome
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 1,047
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: desertturtle]
#8876793 - 09/04/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Turtle, have you done any other pairing of fungi with plants? Pics?
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b3jamboree
yes we have no portabellas
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 423
Loc: 45th Parallel, MI
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: MycoAu]
#8876817 - 09/04/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I really did want to section off a few rooms in the greehouse, but it would be tremendously expensive. We would need to tailor make walls to fit snug to the walls and roof, get vents and filters for each wall and seal everything up really well so there would be no mold issues.
And even if we did all that I'm still not sure how well the air flow would work. The thing is designed with the vents and fans for air to flow right through from the intake to the outside vent...
I think I will try to get some leafy greens in there with pasteurized soil.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: b3jamboree]
#8877540 - 09/04/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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In my experience, plants are going to cause more problems than they solve unless you grow mushrooms in the surface soil of an existing plant greenhouse. I doubt you can maintain much health in mushrooms crops in trays if they're around plants. Mushrooms require above 90% humidity, and that's way too high for most plants, so they'll soon be infected with fungus such as powdery mildew, which will then spread to your substrates. Fungus gnats and cobweb mold will probably be the biggest headaches.
How about building a well insulated greenhouse? It only needs windows on the south side, and you could use two sheets of greenhouse fiberglass, separated by an air space for insulation, or even thermal windows. The rest of the bulding can be well insulated. You could put some large rocks painted black, or some black metal drums full of water to act as thermal storage. A home made solar panel can be used to heat water, which you would store inside the greenhouse as well to give off heat at night. Remember, you only need to keep it above about 40F at the coldest part of the night.
Another option if your home is near the greenhouse is to duct heat from the g/h during the day to warm the house, and then reverse the process at night.
We purchased a cabin in the mountains this spring, so one of my projects for next year is to dig an underground 'cave' for mushroom growing. Also, my property borders a national forest, and about a 1 mile hike from my backyard is a large 'undiscovered' cave that I could hike into to use, but of course, no electricity or running water available. It stays about 55F to 60F year around. If you have a place to bury a shipping container, they're free for the taking near any port. They'd rather give them away than ship back to china empty.(another reason to boycott walmart by the way) RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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SuchSmartMonkeys
mycologically driven individual
Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 1,154
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8877566 - 09/04/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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i go with RRs answer. a lot more detailed than what i was planning on saying, but yeah, from experience, i can say that fugal gnats WILL be a problem...
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MycoAu
5thKingdomCome
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 1,047
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: SuchSmartMonkeys]
#8877673 - 09/04/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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RR, what was your "40*F" figure based on? Is that good for a broad range of tropical plants also (a general rule for g/h temps) ? I was thinking that some plants, such as bananas, would die if repeatedly exposed to those temperatures.
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b3jamboree
yes we have no portabellas
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 423
Loc: 45th Parallel, MI
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: MycoAu]
#8879484 - 09/04/08 09:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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We actually do have a special solar greenhouse with a double cover, with air blowing in between.
We are planning to build a 2 ft wide by 2 foot deep trough running along three sides. We are going to run heating pipe through it so it will provide ambient heat and humidity. I'm guessing we'll only have to run the heat at night, just let the sun heat it during the day.
It remains to be seen how warm it will stay, but I'm really afraid of venting too much in the winter; we get temps well below zero, especially at night when there is no sun.
According to Stamets oysters need 4-6 air exchanges per hour, depending how densely packed they are in the space. They will be pretty densely packed, and no matter how warm the greenhouse is it will have to replace all that heat 4-6 times per hour.
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mycomon
Stranger
Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 6
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: b3jamboree]
#8891034 - 09/07/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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what about pumping the co2 rich air into a tank of algae? they eat co2 and belch o2
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rugergirl79
lεṡвïαṉ εχτɾøḋïṉ^
Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 2,113
Loc: cardboard box
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: mycomon]
#8891050 - 09/07/08 01:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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here are some of my contaimed cakes in with some tomato plants on my back patio....
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: rugergirl79]
#8891243 - 09/07/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
and no matter how warm the greenhouse is it will have to replace all that heat 4-6 times per hour.
Not quite. I wouldn't pay any attention to that figure if it's a large greenhouse and small mushroom crop. You won't have to exchange the whole greenhouse that much. In fact, with straw logs hanging, or on shelves, you probably won't have to provide much more intake air than what naturally leaks in through the door. Have a fan running to circulate the air inside. You'll know if the CO2 level is too high because your oysters will have fat stems and tiny caps. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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jccc
just aotherhuman
Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 1,162
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8892828 - 09/07/08 07:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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b3jamboree...would you mind if you posted pictures of your set-up sometime this winter? Id love to see some oyster's fruiting with 2ft snow outside. If not its no big deal.
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b3jamboree
yes we have no portabellas
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 423
Loc: 45th Parallel, MI
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: jccc]
#8892924 - 09/07/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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That is good to know RR, we will have to see how it goes I guess.
Yeah JCCC, I'll post plenty of pics. This will be an interesting project, snow flying or not...
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InfiniteOhms
.
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 473
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8908810 - 09/10/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If you have a place to bury a shipping container, they're free for the taking near any port. They'd rather give them away than ship back to china empty.(another reason to boycott walmart by the way) RR
Really? I live near a port, but i have never heard of such a thing... i suppose this only applies to the west coast ports? ... Too bad, i would love a buried shipping container mushroom greenhouse.
-------------------- My trade list ∞Ω Currently open to trades, I have lots of edible/medicinal seeds available.
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jccc
just aotherhuman
Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 1,162
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: InfiniteOhms]
#8908941 - 09/10/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Me too! Ive considered harvesting solar energy with one by buring the container and cutting the top off to install some sort of tranparent material. A couple of layers of glazing installed with it would help in the winter to take in heat and hold it in. This also gets rid of trying to set-up lights, and thus saves money from energy. If it were buried it would also act like RR cave he was describing. Depending on the area it should stay a cool year round in a buried container. As far as draining excess moisture you could install some drains in the container and when setting the container down in the hole put 6 inches of gravel underneath the container to allow water to drain.
Just my 2 cents
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Paresthesia
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/08
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Loc: Texas
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: jccc]
#8911183 - 09/11/08 07:17 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shipping containers are being used for lots of things these days. Here's an article I found after a quick Google search: http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Converting_Shipping_Containers_for_Housing-Building_Systems-A2382.html
The company mentioned in the article is in Florida, so I would imagine they're available in pretty much any coastal area with a decent sized port nearby. My major concern with burying these would be rust. Buried wood can last longer in the soil than steel, as my brother the ex-archaeology student can attest... especially in coastal areas.
If you're looking for "green" options, consider straw bale construction. The walls of these structures are surprisingly durable and the thickness provides excellent insulation.
-------------------- "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: Paresthesia]
#8911732 - 09/11/08 10:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'll be getting one on my property this winter or next spring. I live on the side of a mountain, so have the perfect place to bury it.
Yesterday, I had 12 yards of horse manure, and 12 more yards of top soil delivered, and talked to the owner about shipping containers. He estimated his costs to go to Seattle and get the container at $800, and figured it would take four hours @ $100/hour with his large backhoe to set it in place and bury it into my mountain side. That was for a large, 40' long container. Add another $2,000 to have it rhino coated before burying. That's $3,200 for a great under ground grow room. I could easily make that up on the first few flushes of Shiitake.
I'm thinking a few skylights installed in the roof and routed up through the soil to the surface would give light, and the inside would be painted white to reflect that light. A home built windmill could be geared to the inside to provide circulation fans and fresh air intake. My goal is to provide as close to a zero purchased fossil fuel energy grow area as possible. Since I'm in a remote location in the mountains with unlimited dead wood supply, a wood stove inside can help make up for lost heat from FAE during winter. We already heat our cabin free from wood from our own property. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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b3jamboree
yes we have no portabellas
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 423
Loc: 45th Parallel, MI
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Plants and mushrooms in the same greenhouse [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8915183 - 09/11/08 09:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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3200 ain't bad at all RR, we are gaining on 10,000 with the greenhouse and everything that goes with it.
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