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 ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
 
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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I like to look at consciousness in the subconscious of others (I prefer to not see my own.)
I see Lakefingers subconsciously turning into a book so he can be read by anyone.
I see sketz subconscious' telling his conscious that the noise is random so it can keep all the chaos to itself.
Mofo's subconscious is taking a quest into necessity for the sake of existence.
Cypher's subconscious draws a circle of condition and defines it as Y. (It keeps X to itself)
Redgreen subconsciously states that self-definition is absurd so that he may continue with greater justification and freedom.
Ackack9000 puts the mindcock in the mindmouth. (You don't see for real what you might otherwise mind) Now he is happy.
Hoodbran points out that even the dictionary has a straightforward subconscious element.
etc...
(PS: please re-cognize these claims as incorrect before refuting them. That way you will not recognize them.)
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
trying to understand the stream of consciousness is not absurd.
trying to encapsulate it's hugeness and plasticity using words may seem absurd, but it is important to get oriented to it.
finding the relationship between the stream and the five senses and associative processing (memory/thought/timing)
is like understanding how movies and television work to make a series of still frames into a believable moving scene.
getting a grip on consciousness in this way provides a basis for learning and teaching dharma.
i would say it is one of the most important questions.
Redgreenvines, it seems like you have a motif of describing consciousness as a sequence of frames, almost like how a pattern of stills make up motion in a movie. This is rather intriguing... care to elaborate further?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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 Re: What is Consciousness?  [Re: deCypher]
#8866358 - 09/02/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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it is a property of this consciousness that it can respond to context
it takes the pattern of life energies over a series of moments and finds resonance with this pattern from memories of earlier life sequences.
for this to work it has to be able to create and have access to memory.
memory forms from linkages of successive moments and from partial matches or simmilarities of form.
philosophers are entranced by the ideas of form - pure form - as well as consciousness.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Hmm, so you're saying, effectively: consciousness as the unified thing most people think of it as is really just an illusion; and instead it's only the fact that these frames go by too fast for us to notice (unless under the influence of a psychedelic) that blurs these single instants into a total cohesive whole?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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sketz
apothecary
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 10
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: deCypher]
#8868081 - 09/02/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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well, you got me dead on ^_^
maybe my perception of conscious(wow didnt have to use firefox that time) is vastly different than everyone else
maybe all of ours is. maybe they are in such close likeness that they happen to be the same, but its the environment that shapes our perception.
something my friend me told me about not too long ago, self awareness is actually vastly different than just conscious, i suppose...your conscious is on everything
he showed me this picture on his psychology book. it was basically that typical PSY head thing, only there was three, each a full profile, but layered ontop of eachother similarly to a venn diagram. he then told me to look at each face one at a time. then all at once.
in order to look at one of a time, you actually have to be "Conscious" of just that one. focus. introducing, different levels of consciousness. this started me on the importance of focus towards humans. its quite interesting
then i told him to look outwards at our park, we were facing the street. i told him to imagine everything that isnt moving, as a background, similar to old cartoons, how it was basically a drawn picture with moving things ontop of it. then imagine the moving things the same way as like a cartoon. only then just imagine everything like one of those duck shootouts from a fair. everything moving across was just a piece moving across the cardboard cutout.
it was interesting to just sit there and notice different variances in perception
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: sketz]
#8868301 - 09/02/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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you keep adding to your gestalt to see some effect
I reccommend more simplification, less adding
not extra imagining.
sure it is fun, but the extra complexity is not adding clarity IMO
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: deCypher]
#8868397 - 09/02/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Hmm, so you're saying, effectively: consciousness as the unified thing most people think of it as is really just an illusion; and instead it's only the fact that these frames go by too fast for us to notice (unless under the influence of a psychedelic) that blurs these single instants into a total cohesive whole?
Psychedelics are not needed.
Close your eyes, relax, let thoughts pass on by not identifying with them. These thoughts occur because mind is very "agitated" it likes to grab objects and hold on to them. By not paying attention you are letting go of them and ceasing the identification. It helps to use the breath as a home base. Many of these thought objects are hindrances to meditation. These hindrances can be one or more of: anger, greed, doubt (like: "this is stupid"), laziness, and restlessness. When you calm your mind these hindrances will stop arising and you are left with a more wholesome awareness which is called tranquility. Through tranquility you experience happiness, through happiness you unify your mental processes (unified concentration), through this type of concentration, you begin experiencing what RGV is talking about: mind moments.
It really doesn't take long if you are goal oriented. The key is relaxation. You'll find every time a thought arises there is physical tension as a result. This tension has a profound impact on your perspective and consciousness.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: psyka]
#8868609 - 09/02/08 08:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wouldn't it be more accurately described as a single, all-encompassing mind moment then?
And still, at least personally speaking, I'd say that this tranquility found at the heart of your absent thoughts is still yet illusory.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: deCypher]
#8868800 - 09/02/08 09:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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All things are "illusory." You are correct in assuming that there is a more subtle, more secure experience than tranquility. However, without tranquility you cannot get there.
Consider the reality of a rainbow (or anything for that matter). A rainbow occurs because light rays come into contact with water droplets. It does not really exist, because as quickly as it appears is as quickly as it disappears. It is a magic trick. All things are. Because all things have causes, and no cause can independently exist, all things are connected, and nothing can be said to truly "exist."
What you are describing as all-encompassing is awareness. Totally different than consciousness. Consciousness is a function of sensory input (humans having: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin, all the parts of your brain), awareness is an inherent property of motion.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: psyka]
#8868807 - 09/02/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hm, I'd be more inclined to describe consciousness (or more accurately, self-consciousness) AS awareness.
Sensory perceptions aren't necessary to be conscious, no?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: deCypher]
#8869065 - 09/02/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, consciousness is a subset of awareness. However it is not awareness, itself.
You do not need a consciousness to be aware. Consider the cells, the tissue, the organs, the body. They all work in harmony... a closed loop: and the emergent phenomena can be a sense of self, which is like a rainbow.
This is how eye consciousness arises:
First, you need an eye.
Next, you need eye contact (an object).
With the meeting of the two you get eye feeling (judgement).
This bundled process is called eye consciousness.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: psyka]
#8869835 - 09/03/08 02:18 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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eye consciousness is the brain activity from eye sense and from eye sense memory.
your list is adapted from ancient buddhist cannon, and in that teaching feeling is not judgment,
it is the attribute of either pain, pleasure or indifference accompanying any sense consciousness of a mind moment.
judgement may occur or may not occur - this relates to association which in buddhism is objectified as
linkage, attachment, or judgement.
I don't think that those distinctions are made very clear, this is probably because buddhism was not unified with neuro-psychology centuries ago, but it was pretty good for it's day and age.
anyway, some sense is always part of consciousness but mind is also a sense, i.e. memory - including senses, sense of time, cadence and pattern.
the senses can be quiet, and this can be very nice.
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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However, the reason I used the term 'judgment' is because some people have argued that they enjoy pain (trying to make things difficult, of course  ).
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: psyka]
#8870390 - 09/03/08 07:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Think: definitely, I will k(no)w
Think: probably, I will fore(go)
Think: possibly, I will be(come)
Think: not, I am a where (now)
Just remember, you may (n)ever enter or leave the eternal moment.
But we can always expand on this notion. Although if we oppose we might form assault.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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ackack9000
Smart pants are risky
Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 258
Loc: Captain of the ship
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Consciousness is.
nuff said
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[gradient:#FA7500,#000000]WOW WE LOVE YOU MISTER COOL!<!--/gradient//-->
[url=/forums/files/08-36/079935499-eye.jpg]
http://www.zefrank.com/sequencer/index.html
<!--gradient:#FF0808,#00FF04//-->WonderrrrfFulll I"m so fullll. If I was any more full my eyes would turn brown.[/gradient]
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: ackack9000]
#8870589 - 09/03/08 09:06 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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We will always ask these questions. It's part of how our brain works. (for now)
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LoveShroomDearly
CosmicCapriciousComtemplater
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 40
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Less and less,
becomes more and more,
reflection of trees upon a bashful stream,
but a dream,
but a dream,
awakes me.
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What I do not know now, I will know when the time is right...
This very moment is a shining expansion of the breathing universe,
This exploding sensation of complete tranquility,
The one, the all, the sweet bliss of tasting God.
---LoveShroomDearly a.k.a. LSD
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: hoodbran]
#8876082 - 09/04/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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we say we know, or at least can discover, what it means to be human
but we've always been human, what else do we know?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Lakefingers]
#8876217 - 09/04/08 10:33 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lakefingers said:
but we've always been human, what else do we know?
Pretty sure we were fish, rodents, and primates before being human.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: deCypher]
#8876247 - 09/04/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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you're a funny kid
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