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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Quote: There's only one guilt - guilt doesn't arise from and cannot be caused by external situations. The experience of being guilty is solely the product of one's internal processes. It isn't caused by authority. Quote: I fail to see how this conclusion is based upon anything other than your own personal experience. How are you capable of identifying whether or not other individuals have exercised their ability to choose? You point towards the obvious trends of "their" continuing to adhere to the faith of "their" family and relative environment (I'm referring to them as "they" because the idea of these people is nothing more than an abstraction that you've created), but yet there is no grounds from which to place a conclusion that they haven't made a choice. In a similar manner, are individuals who are driving vehicles through the city streets not making a choice because they are all adhering to the "institutionalized" set of rules of the road, such as red light/green light - stop/go, that was imposed upon them? As someone who would speed in situations that I knew was safe and per the conditions of the road, despite the signs stating a speed limit that was lower, I didn't feel guilty about it, even after getting pulled over a couple times. Seriously, though, there's no basis to suggest that people are not making choices through all of this. Quote: The impression I gain from this statement is that there is an underlying fear present that, if it were not for the experience of guilt and shame to arise when something "bad" is being considered to be done or has, in fact, been done, then there would be nothing to stop someone resorting to violence and evil and that anyone who critically analyzes the ways in which their mind creates their experience of reality and the ways in which they act and realizes that there are more efficient and pleasant ways to live their life and live a life of not inflicting suffering upon others (or themselves, through shitty emotions like shame and guilt) is simply an inhuman killing machine. I think this fear simply results from individuals who were raised by people who held this viewpoint and acted accordingly in raising them. If those people couldn't control their children by making them feel bad about doing something that they think is "wrong", then what control would they have? None, because people don't control the lives of others, but can only influence them. Without that illusion of control though, people tend to feel afraid that something could go wrong (since they aren't controlling what happens), so they would employ methods of inflicting suffering on their children by way of negative emotions, which plays into the instinctual fight vs. flight response. Essentially, guilt and shame are simply the end result in the manipulative means that others seek to use for them to feel more in control of reality. Choosing to succumb to inflicting suffering upon oneself (by choosing to experience guilt) to perpetuate this flawed mode of decision-making because others feel it is more forgivable (as it gives them a sense of control or the feeling that it is okay to not assume personal responsibility because it is "human") is infinitely worse than making conscious decisions without inflicting suffering upon yourself. We aren't dogs wearing shock collars, and dogs wouldn't wear them either if people understood how to effectively interact with them to create a healthy relationship and a common understanding that isn't centered around dominance-assertion and suffering experiences. Quote: Do you have a link to your poll, or are you willing to admit that you really don't know what you're talking about and you're only alluding to horrible examples that only relate to what was being said due to a fundamental misunderstanding of what was being said? Quote: I thought how others feel about how and when you should feel guilty was not a healthy foundation to base one's actions? Quote: A.) I'm a sentient living being that has an experience of reality. B.) Other aspects of reality are either similar entities with an experience of reality, or part of the environment that sustains and produces living entities having experiences of reality. C.) Acting in a way that inflicts suffering, directly on other living beings or indirectly through making their environment less conducive to an experience without suffering or freedom, is not a preferred course to take because, not only am I capable of empathy and would not want others or myself to have to be subjected to that, they are also aspects of the same environment as I am, and, inevitably, in some way or another, it would only cause harm to myself. Thanks for the challenge, although I really wouldn't call it that. Quote: Inevitably? You're flat out wrong, bud. -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 3 years, 25 days |
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Quote: This is not a discussion about my personal nature, and how often I feel (or don't feel) guilt doesn't mean anything to the topic in discussion. Regardless of how I control my emotions, the fact that shame and guilt are dysfunctional feelings is still standing. Quote: No, guilt doesn't come naturally, unless, somehow, you can prove that human beings are predestined to feel guilt when dealing with "moral" values. If it was so, then it would mean that when we're born we already have a set of moral standards and that when we break them we "naturally" start feeling guilty. Quote: With the risk of repeating myself, the subject in discussion was not about how many people can control their emotions and how effective, but about how harmless these irrational emotions are to the self, to the others, and how much they slow down real understanding and communication between people. How much they keep of reaching our fullest potential, which, in exchange, will create constructive emotions such as love, acceptance, understanding, deep feelings of inter-connection and happinees. -------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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adrug Registered: 02/04/03 Posts: 15,800 |
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Quote: Edited by adrug (09/01/08 11:25 AM)
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Cameron Too Many Words Registered: 10/31/07 Posts: 4,437 Loc: Canada |
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Quote: I was going for 'train-wreck'.
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MushroomTrip Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 3 years, 25 days |
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Quote: Yes, I re-read what you previously said. Anyways, it is hard to determine how hard it is for each and every person to rid their irrational emotions, and unless you are able to present some evidence that sustains that "guilt comes naturally" for those who grew up amongst strict rules of morality, your statement will remain a gross over-generalization. We can feel whatever we want to feel, we can program our minds to feel anything from deep feelings of regret and sorrow, to deep feelings of joy and acceptance. Why not choose the latter? Quote: The fact that guilt (as well as anything else) can be justifiable, doesn't automatically make it also functional. Quote: Yes, indeed. Tell me, for what reasonable arguments should he feel guilt? Could guilt possibly bring back the people that he killed? Could maybe guilt heal the sorrow from the hearts of the people that lost their loved-ones? Is it that this negative feeling will have the miraculous power of turning back time and make Joe Sixpack pay more attention to the road? Obviously not! Now let's analyze what this bad and dysfunctional feeling can actually do: make Joe Sixpack feel like a worthless piece of shit, maybe along with the impulse of punishing himself, maybe even make him drink more in order to forget the shame that he feels, and other non-constructive actions like these? Yes, he could also decide to stay completely focused when he drives, and never drive when drunk or tired. But he could reach the same conclusion, and maybe even more valuable conclusions, without having to experience all that guilt-trip. All that energy wasted into a negative and dead-end emotion can be used in a more constructive manner such as him being aware of his mistakes and finding a way to fix his problems for the future. So how can him feeling bad about what he did be functional? Ahhh, yes, it can maybe make those who lost their friends or family feel a certain feeling of accomplishment, out of thirst for revenge, which is also a dysfunctional feeling. -------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs Edited by MushroomTrip (09/01/08 12:32 PM)
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PhanTomCat Teh Cat.... Registered: 09/07/04 Posts: 5,908 Loc: My Youniverse... Last seen: 15 years, 1 month |
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So, if you are indeed guilty, and if you are found to be guilty, it is dysfunctional to feel guilty....?
>^;;^< -------------------- "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Lakefingers Registered: 08/26/05 Posts: 6,440 |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: "
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MushroomTrip Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 3 years, 25 days |
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Yes!
Guilt isn't a constructive emotion, for the reasons that I have already stated. Instead of guilty, one could choose to feel responsible. Which is being aware of one's actions and the results of one's actions, without feeling ashamed by them. -------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Quote: Let us know when you come back to reality, because there is nothing in this thread that would suggest that this needs locked. -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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deCypher Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Sigh. There usually comes a line between useful philosophical debate and sophistic rhetoric, and this discussion has crossed it, IMO.
Quote: Of course a moral judgment is just as real as another moral judgment... if one is experiencing neural activity in the form of guilt, then one is experiencing it--I fail to see how this brings anything original to the discussion. Again, my sole distinction is between the causes of the neural activity. You seem to think that that I believe there is a experential "difference between the moral dogma of an 'authority' and the moral dogma that generates 'from the self'", when in fact I do not--instead, I stated that personally speaking, I believe that self-generated moral dogma is healthier and a worthier foundation for following when summoning up a base for one's actions. I am making a value judgment about the use and preferability of a moral dogma as compared with another moral dogma--NOT stating one is any more real than the other, NOT stating that only my self-generated dogma is genuine. More important in a perspective that tells me how to live my life, yes. Deserving more attention--in my opinion, yes. You might differ in your subjective weight of the two types of dogma, but it seems like you're too eager to misconstrue what I'm saying in favor of trying to prove me wrong, when what a skilled rhetoric debater would be doing is trying to show support for why the two should be treated as equally important, rather than attempt to catch me in a supposed factual contradiction. I do agree with you that all moral dogmas must directly come from the person at hand. When I refer to the cause of a moral dogma, it is NOT this first cause that I am referring to--I am referring to the indirect, original cause. Arguing that just because a moral dogma is present in someone's mind, and therefore that mind is ultimately responsible for accepting or rejecting the moral dogma, is technically true but you're completely missing my point. There will always be that technical choice to choose to believe, and that's the responsibility of the individual--but to claim that there is NO causal difference between a self-developed moral dogma and a dogma that is only adhered to due to societal or familiar pressure is naive. Unless you've been brainwashed by a cult (and in fact that example only proves my point), one is not going to immediately accept new standards of what is considered wrong or right with open arms. An outwardly imposed dogma takes time to inculcate in the mind of the believer, and once the believer has finally accepted the dogma, it has made the transition from an outwardly imposed, authoritarian dogma to a dogma based on a personal decision. Quote: Quote: . I'm afraid you're using a classic fallacy here. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that an individual will always have a perfectly free choice to disregard societal and familial dogmatic pressures, especially when I have already presented my argument for the contrary. And in fact, your own personal experience proves my point: Quote: The perfect example of an impressionable young kid being unable to refrain from believing in what authority in the form of her mother told her. I'm not arguing that at some point in the future growth from this psychological immaturity is impossible (and I see you've been successful at growing out of it yourself), but you can hardly deny the fact that the imposition of moral beliefs and dogmatism does occur. Quote: Quote: I'll admit that that statistic isn't a clear argument... but it does provide some compelling evidence in favor of children being swayed by the religious beliefs of their parents. (Just compare Italy, where almost 90% are Catholic, and where two-thirds of Italians have the same religious beliefs as their parents, to the far less religiously homogeneous America where only fifty percent of Americans have the same religious beliefs as their parents.) Obviously, further research needs to be done, but I find it ironic how in the same paragraph that you accuse me of implying people are imposed to follow the herd, you instead imply most people "want" to follow the herd. Do you have any evidence for this claim, or are you merely making idle speculation? In point of fact, I'd actually argue most people simply don't question their religious faith, especially if they've been brought up in a religious-historical tradition for all their life. It's much easier to go along with the flow, which is a milder form of imposition (but imposition none the less.) It would be helpful if there were statistics showing what percentage of people adopted their religious views out of complete free choice, but since there don't appear to be any (and questioning people's deepest subconscious motives through a psychological survey is inherently suspect), all we have to go on is philosophical speculation. Quote: Quote: I see no compelling reason here for acting morally if you don't possess guilt, only veiled personalisms and an ad hominem attack. Please keep this sort of stuff out of P&S--I'm always happy to engage in a civil debate if you wish to back up your assertions and converse rationally. Quote: This is possible, but certainly not realistic IMO. Like another poster said: Quote: Being able to turn off guilt at the flick of a switch makes you sound more like The Terminator (or, yes, Ted Bundy) than a normal human being. It might be a worthier alternative to being subjugated by base emotions, but I frankly don't see how this is possible, and I would be very suspicious of someone I knew proclaiming themselves to be "wholly free of guilt." If you can do this, you display an admirable talent for self-behavior modification.
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deCypher Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: Even though you're not the person to whom my argument was intended, I appreciate the answer to my question. It still seems a bit suspect, though... do you have any support for your assertion that acting in a way that inflicts suffering would "inevitably only cause harm to yourself?" Empathy is probably the best solution to this dilemma. However, how many people will consciously choose to restrain all feelings of guilt and instinct in favor of a more rational, empathetic approach when the heat of the moment is on them? Not too many, IMO.
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Sophistic Radiance Free sVs! Registered: 07/11/06 Posts: 43,135 Loc: Center of the Un |
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Quote:
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Cameron Too Many Words Registered: 10/31/07 Posts: 4,437 Loc: Canada |
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<- I like this one. Nifty, no?
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Sophistic Radiance Free sVs! Registered: 07/11/06 Posts: 43,135 Loc: Center of the Un |
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There are so many hilarious smileys I don't know about.
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blewmeanie Registered: 10/01/06 Posts: 28,984 Loc: |
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ExplosiveMango HallucinogenusDi Registered: 07/12/05 Posts: 3,222 Last seen: 14 years, 4 months |
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What is being pointed to in that avatar brain of yours?
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Cameron Too Many Words Registered: 10/31/07 Posts: 4,437 Loc: Canada |
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The steering wheel.
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blewmeanie Registered: 10/01/06 Posts: 28,984 Loc: |
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The amygdala
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Lakefingers Registered: 08/26/05 Posts: 6,440 |
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tough crowd as usual
have some sense of satyr and drama actually try to under...stand
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MushroomTrip Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 3 years, 25 days |
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Quote: Just because your points are being contradicted doesn't mean that this discussion has passed beyond the point of "debate", as there isn't any time-limit in which the debaters have to agree with each other. I am sorry that you find this discussion useless and that you refuse to take to consideration any of the valid points that I have made, and you can stop replying to me at any time if you don't know what to say anymore. Quote: And again, I am telling you that I fail to see the difference the distinction you insist on making (because obviously you're making one, otherwise you wouldn't be talking about self-generated moral dogma and authority-generated moral dogma ), because, no matter what the moral dogma is (even if it is one that the Catholic Church strongly sustains or not), it is still the individual that agrees with it or not, therefore, all moral dogma IS self-generated, it doesn't matter how many other people are self-generating it as well. You imply that people who adhere to authority-generated moral dogma (whatever the fuck this means, because you still haven't been able to explain this properly) are "blindly" following it, as if someone would have a brainwave generating device by the aid of which they make "the herd" follow the dogma. And each time I asked you to back up your claims, you say that I should be the one to back up my claims, even thought it is you who are making a totally flawed and unsubstantiated claim. I don't have to bring any extra evidence to sustain the existence of critical thinking and the existence of self-control and awareness of one's emotions, because the examples I already provided throughout this discussion are standing on their own and you still haven't able to deconstruct them (saying "I don't see a lot of people dong that is not proving me wrong ) Quote: No, it is not no my subjective weight, it is rational thinking that points out that people make their own choices, even if the choice is to follow the herd. Also, my intention is NOT to prove you wrong for the sake of proving you wrong, but because I honestly you are wrong and that the affirmation you have been making in this thread lack any kind of critical thinking and touch with reality. The rate at which the conviction that people are NOT in direct control of their own emotions thoughts and choices is being presented in this thread is alarming and dumbfolding. Quote: There is always a casual difference between ANY kinds of decision, no decision has exactly the same cause, be it self-generated or the so-called authority-generated. Quote: Brainwashed? Care to explain how this process works? Quote: So what you are saying is that people are all impressionable young kids and that they never pass the age of 10, and that's why they just take everything's that they're being told for granted? Because otherwise I fail to see what the fuck you're talking about. Of course, while we are kids we have limited discernment (even though this is debatable too, but I'll save it for another time ) and limited life experience. All or most of the examples that we get while we're kids is from our parents, relatives, and the few friends that we have that are also kids with barely no true life experience. Our instinct as kids is to absorb any kind of information that we see around and copy the behavior of our parents or the people that are closest to us (which usually are our parents), in exchange for the feeling of safety and affection that children so much need. Once we start growing and coming more and more in contact with different kinds of situations and reach new levels of knowledge (which comes from plenty of direction not only from the family), the situation begins to change and we're starting to make more & more aware choices. The fact that some people choose to remain ignorant to the facts of life doesn't in any way mean that their choice was blind. It only means that this is the situation that appealed most to them, and they made their deliberate choice accordingly. Care to explain how does the "impressionable young kid" still applies to fully grown and mature people, in direct contact with the outside world, surrounded by millions of kinds of information, people and circumstances? Quote: Again, it is not in my responsibility to bring evidence to the fact that people make their OWN choices, it is your duty to show exactly how people are being "forced" to follow the herd. Just for the sake of this argument, let's imagine imagine a scenario in which someone is putting a gun at their heads in order to become Catholics, it is still their choice when they submit, as they also have the choice of NOT submitting even at the risk of having their brains blew in the air, they have another choice in which they could try to fight back and so on. See? Far from having only one choice. It is true that some people use the line "I had no choice", but it is rather an emotional and false affirmation made with the purpose of justifying their own weaknesses, fears and frustrations regarding the decision they have freely taken, when, in fact, a more accurate description of the situation would be "this was the most favorable option, from the multitude of the options that I had in this specific case". Quote: Maybe, maybe not. And ever if is so, not questioning one's religion is STILL their personal choice, as nobody is keeping them from questioning it at any time and at any rate. Quote: Exactly! For some people it is much easier to go with the herd. Look no further, you answered your own question: the reason why people go with the herd is because it is much easier for them to do so, and since this judgment has been made by them, it means that a personal, free decision has been taken. Quote: Again with the logical leaps and inconsistencies. How does the claim: "It's much easier to go along with the flow" equate in any way with the claim: "which is a milder form of imposition (but imposition none the less.)" Just because something is "easier" doesn't mean in any way that it is being "imposed" Are you being "imposed" to breathe just because it's easy? Are you being "forced" to speak English because it is easy, as opposed to Japanese or Korean? In case you didn't know, you can always decide to STOP breathing, or to Start learning Japanese. Quote: You're right. How dare I even suggest that we are the masters of our feeling and emotions and that free choice is more than attainable, it is already happening on and on, even though some feel safer to think that their choices really belong to someone else? Shame on me! -------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs Edited by MushroomTrip (09/02/08 05:59 AM)
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