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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Fortran - Tell me what you know
    #8842653 - 08/28/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So, I need to do some work with FORTRAN.  Im basically a programming noob, I smoked an entry level C++ class that was really basic and that's it.

I guess what I want is,

-Is FORTRAN similar to C++?
-Do any of you know of a good compiler to use on a PC?
-Know of any web sites with tutorials?

Im guessing that only a few of the peeps here know FORTRAN, but I figured Id post this anyway and see what you have to say.  Thanks!

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Invisibleivi
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8843010 - 08/28/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have used FORTRAN back in the day to process Perseid meteor shower observation data. I don't remember what compiler I used, and I've never worked with C++. But I could mail you a book, it's named Structured FORTRAN 77 for Engineers and Scientists by D. M. Etter, helped me a lot. I got it free from a library giveaway, so if you think you'd find it useful, drop me a PM. I don't think I'll ever need it anymore.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: ivi]
    #8843426 - 08/28/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thx for the offer!  I dont want to put you out though, I will fetch it from the library myself.

I have read a little so far on the net, seems that there are a few different versions from different years (77,90,95).  I wonder how different these are and what the compatibility between them is.  I assume Im gonna be using 95, but wont find out till after the weekend.

Im obviously gonna have to figure all this out the proper way, not from forums.  I know that many of you here are programmers by trade, so thats why I posted this, for your thoughts.

(BTW, what kind of research were you doing on the meteor shower?)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8843573 - 08/28/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

N00b.  It's all about COBOL if you're gonna do it old school.  :evil:


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8843616 - 08/28/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, I am a programming noob.  However the group Im working with uses FORTRAN, so its not my call.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8843635 - 08/28/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, just joking with ya.  I'm just really curious as to what modern-day projects actually use FORTRAN.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinesupra
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8843656 - 08/28/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

FORTRAN will be quite a bit different than C/C++, as it is a procedural language, and not object oriented like what you used.  Personally I know nothing about it other than that, i have done a little bit of COBOL, and some Pascal, but never any fortran, sorry I can't help more, this is really all I know of it...lol

I'm guessing they are running some sort of mainframe, i wonder what for, it may be worth talking them into using c++ on the back end instead if they are, if their systems are good enough and they have the funds for a re-write.

peace

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8843665 - 08/28/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nearly all the research groups at my university use it.  Its ubiquitous in physics, if not from its capabilities then simply from its inertia and history.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8843676 - 08/28/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting; what makes it powerful for physics purposes?  It seems like the non-OOP capabilities of the language would inevitably doom it to being slow compared to C++ and the lik.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8843764 - 08/28/08 07:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I dont know.  For the third time, Im a programming noob :wink:

Ill ask tomorrow and find out.  I think its just so ingrained in science, that its much easier to keep going with it than to switch.  An analogy would be - Its better to have a grid system in a city, so why not rebuild Boston in a grid system?  Because its easier to just upgrade the existing system and deal with it.

Maybe there is alot of code already out there for FORTRAN that makes it better to use, thats what I meant by saying it has inertia and history.

I asked some programming friends, and they say the same things you guys do... "Why are you using FORTRAN?  I dont know anything about FORTRAN.  Use [programming language X] instead."

Seuss has done research and knows programming, so maybe he will chime in reasons why it is used.

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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8843765 - 08/28/08 07:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Man, I'm forever getting into this argument with theoretical physicists / chemists.. C is vastly superior to FORTRAN.

They all accept I'm right, but they don't like change and are generally stubborn :grin:.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: Cepheus]
    #8843790 - 08/28/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes for change to happen, the old generations have to die.  :grin:

I tell you what guys when Im in charge of a group, Ill ask you what is best and take that advice. 


And Cepheus, since you know about it, you can point me to a good compiler and a tutorial right?  :thumbup:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8843821 - 08/28/08 08:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Sometimes for change to happen, the old generations have to die.  :grin:

I tell you what guys when Im in charge of a group, Ill ask you what is best and take that advice.




Tradition is one of the hardest things to shake off.  Especially if the university or whatever group is funding your project has pre-established reserved agreements for only dealing with a certain computer vendor or computer software.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8844486 - 08/28/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If you're using fortran, there is a good chance you'll be developing for and on *nix based computers.. Most researchers use linux cause its easier to program for (due to the huuuge amount of documentation).

If you do have *nix installed, then you'll almost indefinitely have gcc installed, in which case you already have a fortran compiler; g77.

http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.4.6/g77/Invoking-G77.html#Invoking-G77

http://www-teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk/Unix+Prog/hargrove/tutorial_77/ :smile:


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

Open Source. Freedom.  GNU/Linux

Addicting is not a word.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: Cepheus]
    #8844708 - 08/28/08 10:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was told that I could find something to use on windows, but if there is that much more documentation in *nix, then thats what I will do.

Now, in addition to being a programming noob, in a *nix noob.  Thats some kind of unix/linix thing right? 

Thx for the links ( I was reading one of them earlier today ); give me one to the OS you think I should use as well, if you dont mind!  Are all Unix OSes the same with respect to fortran?

EDIT - Thanks for your help everyone.  I think I have got what I need to proceed.  How the hell do you know all this shit?  :nerd:

:wexican:

Edited by Qubit (08/28/08 10:21 PM)

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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8844972 - 08/28/08 10:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well I think the aim of the g77 compiler is to be a free open source clone of any commercial fortran 77 compilers... and every GNU/Linux operating system comes with the gnu compiler collection, so you'll have a whole array of compilers. If you're developing for the x86 (and even if you're not) the code should be portable.

As you've never used linux before, Ubuntu will make for the easiest transition from Windows.

A GNU/Linux operating system is based around a command line interface (however it does have a GUI), so in order to get the most out of your system, it is imperative that you get a reasonable understanding of how to use it effectively:

http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/cli.html
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Teaching/Unix/

A good understanding of *nix based systems is a very useful skill when it comes to research, because there is so much code out their for reference as it is widely used amongst the research community.

And I know this stuff because... It interests me?


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

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Offlinefunnybunny
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8854896 - 08/31/08 01:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Interesting; what makes it powerful for physics purposes?  It seems like the non-OOP capabilities of the language would inevitably doom it to being slow compared to C++ and the lik.




A wide range of mathematical libraries that have been around for decades (so they are very optimized) that allow you to program the important work rather than the number crunching.

Libraries apart, FORTRAN is made for math. Matrix multiplication, flipping or operations with complex numbers are built-in.

You can declare 2 matrices of complex numbers and multiply them right away. 2 lines of code. Doing that in C++ gives me shivers.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: funnybunny]
    #8856592 - 08/31/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I asked my prof about this on friday.  I said some of my programming friends (which includes a few IRL) balk at the idea of using Fortran.  His response was, in his usual sarcastic manner, "Thats because they are computer programmers and dont know anything about physics research". :lol:  He said that fortran is way easier to use, and the 'modules' (whatever the hell those are) are somehow better...

In any case, I am now trying to to get gfortran, emacs, and cygwin somehow installed and configured correctly, and am failing horribly...  I got my question in on other forums, so hopefully I can get this going by school on tue.

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8859277 - 09/01/08 07:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus this shit is confusing...  I spent nearly all day yesterday trying to get this, and still cant get shit going.


EDIT- Maybe somebody here knows of a good programming forum I can post my questions in?

Edited by Qubit (09/01/08 08:04 AM)

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Offlinefunnybunny
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8861357 - 09/01/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You end faster installing some linux distro.

Use VMware if afraid of slicing your hard disk.

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Offlinedelta9
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: deCypher]
    #8873994 - 09/03/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Nearly all the research groups at my university use it.  Its ubiquitous in physics, if not from its capabilities then simply from its inertia and history.



This has something to do with its ubiquity; however:

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Interesting; what makes it powerful for physics purposes?



The fact that it is ForTran - Formula Translation.  Last I recall Physics has a lot to do with formulae.

Quote:

It seems like the non-OOP capabilities of the language would inevitably doom it to being slow compared to C++ and the lik.



OOP is not fast.  Vtable resolution takes a finite amount of time and always will.  Besides, OOP is a noun-based nomenclature.  Are nouns the best way to describe physics?  If you think about it, this means (as is often the case with OOP) you must give each object too much knowledge of the rules, and therefore, having a "ball" object in a physics simulation that was completely OOP based would require you to give the ball knowledge about gravity, friction, and such within its methods.  Clearly, it might be better (and faster, both in development and run time) to simply give a ball object a mass and a vector for direction and accelleration then use a more functional/declarative approach to process the ball's actions via functions that represent gravity, friction, etc and operate strictly on those base values.  Now you have a physics simulation that can easily (with very few changes) simulate other objects (like boxes) or environments (like the moon).  BUT I DIGRESS...

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I was told that I could find something to use on windows, but if there is that much more documentation in *nix, then thats what I will do.



Stick with what you are comfortable with.  Check out FTN95 free for personal use or try some from this resource page.  If you persist in adding *n?x to the things you must now learn then...

Quote:

Now, in addition to being a programming noob, in a *nix noob.  Thats some kind of unix/linix thing right?

Thx for the links ( I was reading one of them earlier today ); give me one to the OS you think I should use as well, if you dont mind!  Are all Unix OSes the same with respect to fortran?



Now you have two problems!  Learning *n?x and learning fortran.  Thankfully, learning *n?x is not that terribly complicated; however, if you do get Ubuntu or another debian-derived operating system keep in mind you may need to install (apt-get) the package "build-essential".

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Jesus this shit is confusing...  I spent nearly all day yesterday trying to get this, and still cant get shit going.



Well, you've now added cygwin and emacs to your list of problems - what do you expect?  While I dearly love emacs and use it everyday, there is certainly a bit of a learning curve involved in becoming proficient with it.

This is a decent programming forum in that there are many good programmers here.

Some tutorials you may have already perused: Stanfard Fortran 77 Tutorial, University of New Mexico Fortran 90 Tutorial

Keep at it, you'll figure it out!  Fortran is, thankfully, not a terribly complicated language (it's certainly no C++, which is possibly the most complicated).


--------------------
delta9

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8874321 - 09/03/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> "Thats because they are computer programmers and dont know anything about physics research".

Translation: Old school physicists haven't progressed from the 1960's.

Fortran is still used quite a lot, but mainly by people that are stuck in the past.  If you have to use it, then you have to use it, but if I had a choice, I would avoid it in favor of something a little less ancient.  Yeah, an old fashioned screw driver will work, but why use it when you have a power driver?

> You can declare 2 matrices of complex numbers and multiply them right away. 2 lines of code. Doing that in C++ gives me shivers.

To each his own.  I did a lot of work implementing a C++ MOA for massively parallel computing systems that will blow the doors off of anything written in fortran.  It may not be native to the language, but with c++ templates, it might as well be.  However, as you point out, using the available tool for the job is often the best way to go.  With legacy code, or with legacy physics professors, it is probably best to go with the flow.


--------------------
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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: Seuss]
    #8877121 - 09/04/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, an old fashioned screw driver will work, but why use it when you have a power driver?



I usually use my regular screwdriver, for quick easy projects :grin:  I guess that confirms what I have been hearing, that fortran is fine for quick easy programming project.

Anyway, I am getting more and more confused every day trying to get fortran to work.  I may have to give up and shift my focus because I am spending more time trying to set up a fortran compiler than I am on my classes and research.

Every body suggests different things and gives me different links, but what I really need is an explanation of how all the pieces I need fit together.  Right now, I am trying this -->http://approximatrix.com/articles/setting-up-gnu-gfortran-on-windows-xp  But I am stuck on step 4 where I have to 'compile the compiler' (whatever that means).  I get a error after compiling for an hour or so....

Ahhh Im so frustrated, this shit is harder than solving the Dirac equation!

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8877297 - 09/04/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It is hard because you are trying to shoehorn a unix application into a windows environment, for which it was never meant.

I would honestly recommend installing linux.  The learning curve isn't that bad anymore (with the easier to use distributions) and the fortran compiler will work "out of the box" so to speak.  Trust me, you will save a lot of hair pulling.  Besides, your legacy physics professor should know that anybody doing actual academic research uses unix rather than windows.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=89571

(The link above talks about installing the Intel Fortan compiler on Linux, but there is a windows version as well.  That might be what you are looking for... no idea.)


--------------------
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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: Seuss]
    #8877744 - 09/04/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, I think I will try linux.  I have been wanting to try it for a long time.  Over the summer I installed Ubuntu, but I couldn't get the video driver going so I uninstalled it.  This weekend I will install it again, and give it a try.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Fortran - Tell me what you know [Re: DieCommie]
    #8878178 - 09/04/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

install sabayon. it will come with all codecs and is meant to build source in (which is what you want to do). it is based on gentoo.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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