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InvisibleSclorch
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God and the Afterlfe
    #883443 - 09/14/02 07:05 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Here's something that is always mentioned in conversations about god...

THE AFTERLIFE.
I really don't see a necessary connection between an afterlife and the existence of god. If god exists, does it necessarilly follow that there is an afterlife?

This is another thing that makes it hard for me to take any religion seriously. There are probably many more conceptions of "the afterlife" than there are religions. There are often several different depictions of the afterlife within one religion. This only leads me to question this religion's metaphysical authority even more.

Well, I want to know what you think.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #883512 - 09/14/02 07:53 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

For one, Christianity, uses the words "Kingdom of God," and later, Matthew, the Judaizer did not want to write a Holy Name of God, so he changed it to "Kingdom of Heaven," which was an indirect reference to the Divine Presence. There is also the term "Eternal Life," never the commonly used word 'immortality,' which is not Biblical. The paradox is whether Eternal Life for the Christian reserves any sense of personal or individual awareness of self, or not. Personal identity, must be experienced in this life as a 'sense' which is wordless and empty of thought, image, memory. I learned this not from Christian theology, but from Adwaita (non-dualist) Indian theology via Ramana Maharishi. It applies to Christian mysticism, if one reads the mystics.

The Christian must be living "in Christ" as well as merely being a human. To "be in Christ" means to be aware of, suffused with, the timeless Reality of God, here and now. St. Paul said, "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me." The point of Christian enlightenment is to 'dethrone' one's ego and recognize the Eternal Life and Light of God at the Center of one's psychospiritual self. Paul also said, "I must decrease, Christ must increase," within one's very personality so that we are transformed into that state of being which is Christ.  As Ram Dass put it, only love gets into Heaven. Everything else perishes. That is why the message of Jesus is so urgent - to love - to become loving. The nature of God is taken to be love ("God is Love"), and as the Neoplatonic philosophy Plotinus said, "Only eyes that have become as the sun, can look into the sun." Likewise, only our love can enter into Eternal Life.

So, as our body-mind dies, if our Identity has been transformed, and we have come to Realize that we are that "inner man" that Paul talks about, the indwelling Christ is Who we are, then we simply remain in the Eternal Life that we entered into in this life. The body-mind drops away, and we remain...Resurrected...Corpus Incorruptibilis. The Life in Christ here and now is what survives death. Thus ends Theology 101 for today  :smile:  Shalom. 


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #883553 - 09/14/02 08:25 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

But where's the necessary connection between god and the afterlife (please, no religious quotes)?

It seems religion closed the door on the personal interpretation of god with all it's terminology and steps and states and so on and so forth. These accounts were written down by man. Did all these men screw up god's dictation (they must not have been court-reporters)?

If God presented him/herself to me (mystical experience), I would believe in him/her. I would also opt for the personal interpretation of what it means to know God. Unfortunately for me, religion has closed this door with all their gobbledy-goop and jargon. Now, if all religions were essentially the same (with minor discrepancies due to transcription or slightly sub-par note-taking), then I'd be MORE inclined to think "maybe they're on to something... maybe there really is some divine infrastructure. I can benefit from their knowledge of this infrastructure."

So, if I'm to have faith... do I have to state it in terms of a religion? (if so, why?)

If I ever believed in god (due to a personal experience), then I'd STILL think religion is an opiate for the masses. I'd still be shunned by other sects. I'd still be told that I'm going to hell (by some). I'd still have my freedoms limited.

Fuck religion (except for scholastic interest).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (09/14/02 08:27 AM)


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #883668 - 09/14/02 09:43 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

There is a connection, but it isn't a necessary connection. Most religious doctrines describe both a God and an afterlife.

Religion's metaphysical authority? LOL


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #883823 - 09/15/02 07:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

This is the same problem with all religions... each one is a different interpretation of the same fundamental concept (in this case, that there is an "after-life").

We are humans and we all look at reality from different angles... it is only natural that we come up with different views of the same thing.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineMetasyn
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #883826 - 09/15/02 07:26 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If there is a God, there may or may not be an afterlife.

But if there is an afterlife, there must be a God.

That's the connection in my opinion. Just about every form of spirituality gives man some sort of "soul" or higher aspect of one's being that is divinely infused. So if this soul survives in some form after death, that is, by definition, after-life. And if something survives after the biological definition of life, that necessitates a non-traditional biological force that created the soul (i.e. God).

I wholeheartedly agree that religion is the opiate for the masses (that and television), but that says nothing about spirituality. I find them two completely different things. Kind of like how Microsoft Windows 2000 is to computer science. People use it because its a hell of a lot easier than DOS, but you're just not as in touch with what's really going on.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Metasyn]
    #883979 - 09/15/02 08:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"But if there is an afterlife, there must be a God."

I'm not seeing the connection. It is just as possible that there is an afterlife with no god as there is with a god. it also depends on what your definition of god is and your definition of afterlife. there are infinite possibilities for these definitions.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Anonymous

Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #884078 - 09/15/02 09:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

One word, fivedriedgrams.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: ]
    #884183 - 09/15/02 09:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

two words.... beentheredonethat wokeuptoreality

Of course... I could just be in denial.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #884207 - 09/15/02 09:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Very good sir. Nice replay on the technique and an admittance of the possible.

Read the truth thread and follow the energizer bunny.

If you dare.............


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #884663 - 09/16/02 02:38 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

the "afterlife" exists Here and Now, in the Present Life. One must become increasingly filled with Compassion and [Agape]Love, because if your mind were to merge with this Reality (which you might mistakenly believe is mere feeling, attributable only to psychophysical causes), you would enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. 'The Mind-in-the-Heart' is the description of the mystical contemplative process in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. The life-long belief in, orientation to, practice of selfless love IS (or is tantamount to) ''being in Christ," Not until one IS in Christ, to paraphrase, is one spiritually capable of understanding, or believing in greater Truth. Don't even bother to think that you can understand 'scholastically,' because without a sincere 'immersion,' (and I use this word baptismally), you can not be transformed to the extent needed to apprehend the great Truths. You are just outside of that field of perception seeing it through biased and merely intellectual eyes.

In some very real ways, religion is undoubtedly the opiate of the masses. 'Do this, do that, don't do this,' is not freedom, but it allows people freedom from thinking, which is a task that most people find quite difficult. To have to 'apply' teachings of scripture, or from experience, to every moment of experience is too much work. People want guidelines and limitations to thoughts and actions imposed from without. I do not want or need this. I have an 'internal locus of control' which is usually for ethical and moral that our externally imposed laws. This is not the kind of "sheep" that Jesus refers to. Thos sheep follow the inner-calling, the law of love.

It is necessary to define one's faith by symbols that humans can share, like any other language. A spiritual tradition can be flexible within certain boundaries, but boundaries of interpretation are as necessary as white highway boundary lines on a curvy dark mountain road. One does not want to leave the road (or path), especially under dangerous circumstances, crash and burn. One should not be executed, of course, for leaving those boundaries like the Catholics and Protestants did to 'heretics.' They should've allowed God to judge the heretics. Perhaps this is why I sympathetically study the Gnostics, Cathars, etc. They were explorers who were punished in the extreme. Perhaps they also held Truth. Galileo was threatened with death by the Church for declaring the moon to be an earthen sphere, not some celestial body. I am not defending political bodies or traditional practices, but...I do defend symbols of a Sacred character. They are 'doorways' into Sacred realms that are 'bigger' than we are. Our job is to understand them to the best of our ability, only intellect is NOT the only mode for acquiring understanding. Love is the true Gnosis. Love allows for Union with Reality, whereas intellect does not. Love is the sun, intellect is the moon - reflecting a dim shadow of Reality. Useful or hurtful to one's spiritual growth is the intellect, to the extent that it seeks 'the ten thousand things' besides the Heart of Love to merge with.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #885843 - 09/16/02 04:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

the "afterlife" exists Here and Now, in the Present Life.

I'm surprised to hear you say this... I agree.


''being in Christ," Not until one IS in Christ, to paraphrase, is one spiritually capable of understanding, or believing in greater Truth. Don't even bother to think that you can understand 'scholastically,' because without a sincere 'immersion,' (and I use this word baptismally), you can not be transformed to the extent needed to apprehend the great Truths.

I hear ya.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #886174 - 09/16/02 05:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

But...are you getting what I mean by this statement? I do not mean it as an existentialist, but as an ontologist. 'Essence precedes existence,' for me, not vice versa. The Divine Immanence suffuses space-time, without being space-time. In our Spirit, our Transpersonal Consciousness (to use modern jargon), we can identify with the Divine Immanence, or Holy Spirit of God - while yet alive, here and now. But...when we die, and our ego, our individuality dissolves, and our Spirit is separated from matter - we continue to Live. Theosis has occurred. Our Realization of Eternal Life, here and now, continues though the body dies. Eternalization is not caused by death, it defies death, and it begins during human life lived in faith and love.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #886633 - 09/16/02 08:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think the ontological aspect of that statement is a distant second to the existentialist aspect.  Essence is arbitrary.  Truth is self.  The self needs not a soul.  I don't want to appear condescending... but a soul is a metaphor gone awry.


Of course... I haven't had the benefit of years of monastic brainwashing... :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #887047 - 09/17/02 02:39 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You should realize that some sects of Buddhism are atheistic and believe in an afterlife, so obviously the concepts are not mutually incompatible.

As an odd contrast, the mainline official Jewish position is that there is one and only one god, and we don't know about an afterlife. I've always thought it refreshing that there was at least one group that came right out and said "we don't know".


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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Anonymous

Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Sclorch]
    #887056 - 09/17/02 02:45 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

One of your finest posts in my opinion.

I like the word awry.  I see it as my defining characterisitic. :smile:

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #887059 - 09/17/02 02:48 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting.

'Essence precedes existence,' for me, not vice versa.

Care to elaborate some more on this using terms we all understand and logic?

I would love to hear it.

Cheers,


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Offlinenezshoo
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: ]
    #887690 - 09/17/02 09:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

My thoughts....

I believe that there is only one plane everyone goes to when we all depart from our bodies.  That plane is a huge vast plane where many things take place and where many religions hold their "Heaven".  That place is what you make it.  Kinda like the movie "What dreams my become" only that we don't have our own seperate world we just interpreate the one we are all in differently.  The only hell locate in the plane is the hell that you make yourself.  All those "bad" thoughts and self pity you had on yourself now puts you in a state of insanity.  You must find your way out of that insanity to join the others. 

That's all I gotta say about that!    :smile:


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Adamist]
    #887718 - 09/17/02 09:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I do not personally believe in an afterlife.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinenezshoo
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Re: God and the Afterlfe [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #887824 - 09/17/02 10:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I WILL PRAY FOR YOU!!  :tongue:


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