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 Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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 Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds *DELETED*  [Re: Chemy]
#8836198 - 08/27/08 02:07 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: delete
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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
#8836219 - 08/27/08 02:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah man, nobody mentioned enforcement. You said they were legal, and I quoted the law prohibiting possesion of controlled substances and the law making LSA a schedule III.
Now you start talking about intent to manufacture, enfrocement, and other nonesense.
Who knows, I don't know why the feds do what they do.
As chemy states, all I did was show that the seeds are illegal.
Are poppy seeds illegal? No, they are not. Are they, as anything, that contains morphine illegal? Yes. Are they enforced? Apparently not.
Bananas are illegal too under this scheme and the supreme court knows and discussed it in the DMT case. Just cuz something is absurd doesn't make it any less the law.
For example, the supremes could have ruled bananas legal, but they didn't. Why? Cuz it wasn't an issue in the case. And untill someone gets charged with the law, their will never be a case regarding it.
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
#8836356 - 08/27/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chemy said:
Quote:
Chemy said:
We are not debating enforcement, manufacturing or any other nonsense, we are debating the legality of containers of a schedule III substance, and as long as HBWR seeds are not exempt from the CSA, possession of HBWR seeds will be a crime.
I hate to have to quote myself.
then just type it with out using the quote feature....
Quote:
As chemy states, all I did was show that the seeds are illegal
No all you've done is show that LSA is illegal, which we've already known/established
it seems this may be a unanswerable question until some one goes to court for it. I am not aware of it happening as of yet. show me a case please?
Edited by hamandcheese (08/27/08 02:47 PM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: hamandcheese]
#8836419 - 08/27/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't know of a case, but what does it matter? The law is clear. Are the seeds "any material, compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of" LSA?
I certainly think they are a material that contians LSA, and thus they are a controlled substance. How hard is this?
Walk me through the analysis that allows you to conlude this is a hazy issue, please.
And what does you quoted law have to do with whether LSA is illegal? Please explain.
BTW, when quoting the us code, include the title and section so others can find it. Something like TT USC SSSS....
Where TT is the title and SSSS is the section.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: johnm214]
#8836459 - 08/27/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hamandcheese, you should listen to Chemy and John. They know what they're talking about. We all know the law is absurd, but that doesn't make it any less of a law.
I'd like to see a senator who gets his wife pregnant charged with manufacturing (babies contain DMT) so politicians would be forced to see how absurd the law is.
If you've read chemy's citation and still don't believe that the seeds are illegal, I don't know what to tell you.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Entropymancer]
#8836482 - 08/27/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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yep. Unfortunatly just cuz the law is insane doesn't mean it isn't the law.
And its not a defense to show the law is stupid. I agree with you and am against drug prohibition. I don't think bananas should be schedule I controlled substances either.
But untill they try to seize the local grocery store for dealing drugs and maintaining a drug premises there won't be a case on that issue.
People think these drugs only appear in "street drugs" or pharmaceuticals and so aren't worried about it.
I bet none of the lawmakers passing the CSA and amendments knew that bananas contain DMT, that many cacti are schedule I, that poppy seeds are illegal almost by default if they have any opiates on them, and that a great number of fruits and common foods are controlled substances.
The law is insane, and apparently walmart could be seized and indicted.
I agree its stupid and I agree these provisions are unlikely to be enforced.
But that's a matter of discretion, not right. They could arrest you tomorrow for possession of DMT in you banana. If you didn't know about it, which you do now, you'd likely get off with only the fruit being seized.
To hamandcheese, I believe:
Quote:
it is illegal to consume theese seeds but i don't see how you could be convicted for possesion with out any other eveidence to prove you have or planned to consume them or preform an extraction of the LSA.
Show me where the law makes it an element of the offense that you must consume them? While that is one of the things that is illegal, possesion is also illegal.
I don't know what the knowing means, and I don't know of any case that clarifies it. Since seeds are the controled substance that they contain by definition, since they are a material that contains the controlled substance they are the controlled substance, what do you have to know you posses?
Do you have to know you posses the seeds only, or do you have to know you posses the seeds with constructive knowledge of their contents or effects?
I've presumed the later under the rule of lenity, but who knows. In any case, it doesn't change anything, cuz I've presumed the later throughout this conversation.
And Prisoner1, did you give up? Or do you still think these seeds are legal or something?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: johnm214]
#8837742 - 08/27/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Additionally, the scheduling law specifically refrences the law you cited, which appears to be in 21 USC 811.
As both sections say, the attorney general may amend the statutory list of CS's.
You've cited the law giving the power, but not cited the regulation or order amending the list as pertains to LS/LSA- as chemy pointed out rightly.
Do you have such? Otherwise, I don't know why you cited sec 811
Quote:
i just recently bought a pergola and my father wants it to be cover in vines as quickly as possible seeing as we acquired it rather late in the growing season I'm ordering either HBWR or morning glory seeds, based not on the fact that they contain any scheduled substance but rather for there innate beauty and renown rate of growth. so if i happen to have some seeds laying around there is no reason to believe that i ingest them recreationally, unless i give them reason to believe i do.(munching them in front of them, or having extract/ ext ration equipment readily found in a manner that prove i was deliberately extracting the compounds that are in fact scheduled controlled substances)
some substances happen to be found in rather common items but the possession of them is not consider enough to convict someone. (low levels of DMT can be found in some grasses and one type is sometimes used to feed livestock if I'm not mistaken)
as has been said, I don't know why you think ingestion is required to convict for a controlled substance violation. People are arrested for crack all the time when they simply posses it.
What authority do you have that the presence of CS's in common items is not enough to convict someone?
And as stated earlier, this is besides the point. The question and answers addressed the legal status of the item, not the requirements of conviction.
And you can indeed be convicted without evidence you intend to consume an item, and I believe your house/buisness can be seized by simply selling controled substances with no expection/knowledge they are to be used as drugs. So walmart should watch out.
You seem to be confusing the grace shown to many would-be convicts that are not charged due to want of evidence they've used a common drug with an element of intent. People are also not given tickets often for only going two miles over the speed limit, but that doesn't mean its not still illegal, in many states.
While evidence of intent to consume is a practical indication of intent to posses, people having books, stuff on their computers, and most of all talking, like fools, to cops also provides evidence.
When the cop asks if you knew they had drugs in them, and state's
"I'm not stupid, I know you kids get high on this stuff. Its no big deal, but if you don't start being honest with me or things are going to get very difficult for you"
and then you admit that you knew they had drugs, but would never consume them, you've satisfied even the more stringent interpreatation of the law and can be convicted of a federal offense, likely in all states as well.
This isn't some hypothetical. People talk their way into jail all the time to "make the cop happy" or for some other dubious reason.
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: johnm214]
#8837846 - 08/27/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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let me preface this by sayin i value what you guys are saying and by no means to intend to imply that you lack intellenge or that that i posses more that you in any shape way or form. and yes i jumped to a conclusion that you dont know your laws well, and i appolgize and retract that statement.
perhaps this arguement stems from the TS failure to elaborate on his question. this lend me to believe that his concern was more than likely that of "am i going to get busted if i have these seeds". where as it seem you took a more literal stance of what laws have been writen regarding the subject regardless of their practical application and/or precedent of having or being capable of being previously implemented or that of forseeable future application.
perhaps the vague nature of the innitial question is a good thing. because you have now peaked my interest as to whether some laws or clauses somewhere may contain information that would excempt certian products that contian other wise illegal substances to be readily sold with little to no scrutiny. or is it infact true that the ONLY reason they are not enforced is because they simply "choose not to"?
Quote:
The law is clear.
actually i believe that the problem is exactly the opposite, and in fact the law is NOT always 100% clear, and things are all too often left open to interpetation. half of a lawyer job seem to be find the loop holes appliacable to there clients particular circumstances.
Quote:
title 21....
sec.952
(b) Nonnarcotic controlled substances in schedule III, IV, or V It shall be unlawful to import into the customs territory of the United States from any place outside thereof (but within the United States), or to import into the United States from any place outside thereof, any nonnarcotic controlled substance in schedule III, IV, or V, unless such nonnarcotic controlled substance -
(1) is imported for medical, scientific, or other legitimate uses, and
(2) is imported pursuant to such notification, or declaration, or in the case of any nonnarcotic controlled substance in schedule III, such import permit, notification, or declaration, as the Attorney General may by regulation prescribe, except that if a nonnarcotic controlled substance in schedule IV or V is also listed in schedule I or II of the Convention on Psychotropic Substances it shall be imported pursuant to such import permit requirements, prescribed by regulation of the Attorney General, as are required by the Convention
.
i feel that "other legitamte uses" seems to be a rather unclear vague term very much open to interpretaion. and as i see the growth of theese plants for purpose such as i have discuss to qualify them as other legitimate uses. seemingly you disagree.
perhaps we could find something useful if we took the stance of what would you would try to inform someone who is on trial for possesion for LSA by way of HBWR or Morning Glory seeds. suppose it was someone in precisely my situation. where i may or maynot have aquired the information nesacary to know of and/or extract LSA from said seeds. but i at least seemingly have some other intented purpose for them(see previous posts).
what would you tell this person in order to possibly avoid conviction of a crime?
or would you just simply tell them "sorry bro your fucked"?
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds *DELETED* [Re: hamandcheese]
#8838120 - 08/27/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: delete
--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous
Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.
God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.
Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
Edited by Chemy (08/27/08 07:53 PM)
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
#8838363 - 08/27/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Im assuming that if it would qualify to be legally imported,(as this does pertain to a schedule III substance) appearantly legally distrubuted it would be natural to infer that it is legal to posses.I may or may not be wrong in with this train of thought but thats how i understood it.
i remember seeing something about so long as it being labeled as present or "unfit for human consumption" it is legal to sell a product that contains an otherwise illegal substance.however don't quote me on that as i need to find the pertiinant literature, and very well may have simply misread it. anyone know anything here?
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: hamandcheese]
#8838423 - 08/27/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamandcheese said:
Im assuming that if it would qualify to be legally imported,(as this does pertain to a schedule III substance) appearantly legally distrubuted it would be natural to infer that it is legal to posses.I may or may not be wrong in with this train of thought but thats how i understood it.
Yes, any controlled substance (except C-I) can be legally imported and distributed, with proper permits or approval from the Attorney General.
--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous
Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.
God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.
Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
#8838482 - 08/27/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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so if a distrubtor has a permit to sell them, and makes it clearly known that they are not intented for human consumption they would be legally allowed to sell them?
wouldn't it then be legal to purchase them?
i wouldn't know where to look to find out if anyone posseses the proper permit for in this particular case, but it sound pretty plausible that they could.
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds *DELETED* [Re: hamandcheese]
#8838546 - 08/27/08 08:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: delete
--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous
Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.
God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.
Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
#8838872 - 08/27/08 09:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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well ill be damned.... i may be stuborn at time but i really am not left with anything to argue given my current knowledge and acess of the laws. and im not so pride-full to carry on an agrument im not going to win, because it is appearently impossible as i highly doubt im gonna find anything that outright says despite all of these other laws HBWR and morning glory seeds are legal yo. of and i will now (gracefully hopefully) accept my defeat in this arguement. congrats, you got me stumped on this one but hey i learned something and enjoyed it so whatever...
i think we all agree that some of theese laws can be down right absurd...
but what exactly is it that allows them, as well as other things such as bannas appearantly, nutmeg, poppy seeds coffee etc to be sold so readily if they are appearantly so clearly illegal? is it just a lack of motivation funds or ability? or is there some other reason? (maybe they actually realize just how ridiculous the pursuit of some one is)
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds *DELETED* [Re: hamandcheese]
#8838947 - 08/27/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: Reason for deleting?
--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous
Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.
God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.
Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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Luddite
I watch Fox News
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Chemy]
#8922474 - 09/13/08 06:41 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hawaiian Baby Woodrose rose seeds are legal in the USA. Whoever says they're not proves marijuana is dangerous to society and should remain illegal. Just ask the sellers on Ebay about Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds.
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Luddite
I watch Fox News
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Luddite]
#8922482 - 09/13/08 06:44 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I found some Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds being sold from the UK on Ebay, too. Didn't someone write a book called White Nigger refering to the lowly nature of drug users?
Edited by Luddite (09/13/08 06:46 AM)
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Luddite]
#8923382 - 09/13/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yer a silly goose Luddite. Read the laws cited above. HBWR seeds are undeniably illegal (as are bananas), the law is simply not enforced.
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Luddite
I watch Fox News
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Entropymancer]
#8923654 - 09/13/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
(b) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another
schedule
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Luddite
I watch Fox News
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds [Re: Luddite]
#8923664 - 09/13/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
In the US, ergine is a DEA Schedule III substance. It is illegal to prepare the seeds for consumption or market them as consumable.
http://everything2.com/e2node/Hawaiian%2520baby%2520woodrose
This might mean the seeds are legal to possess if they aren't used as a drug.
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