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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08
#8827099 - 08/25/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Because a vote for Mickey Mouse is a vote of NO CONFIDENCE.
I think either of the two candidates will do nothing but further damage this great country of ours, and further subvert and repeal our rights. I mean, I watch the news almost every night, and I don't even know what either of them stand for, except for a few "hot button" issues. The media has replaced issues with campaign strategies, and that suits the candidates and apparently most Americans just fine. I'm sick of it.
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Rebirtha
I really like bread
Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 5,680
Loc: over there
Last seen: 1 month, 17 hours
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
#8827114 - 08/25/08 08:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fuck Mickey Mouse, Vote Grimace
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Minstrel
Man of Science
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 *DELETED* [Re: mofo]
#8827152 - 08/25/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Learn about the free state project in New Hampshire. Spoiling your ballot as you want to do is just whining.
Edited by Minstrel (08/25/08 08:16 PM)
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: Minstrel]
#8827170 - 08/25/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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why not burn your ballot instead. That's a traditional symbolic way to protest things like that are flammable or symbolized by something flammable.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
#8827175 - 08/25/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you dont like the most popular two, vote for somebody else who is real. The only reason you think you can only choose from two, is because you think you can only choose from two. Its a collective phenomenon thats a self fulfilling prophecy.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: DieCommie]
#8827209 - 08/25/08 08:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well you could just vote a third party, if you want to quietly throw your vote away, but if you want to show people your dissatisfaction with the election and the candidates burn that fucker up.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8827233 - 08/25/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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The big two parties dont get a tally of how many ballots were burned. They do get a tally of how many ballots chose neither of them.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8827288 - 08/25/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yea but are you trying to show the candidates you don't care for them or are you trying to show other people how disaffected you are and indeed that it is ok to show how disaffected you are with the candidates. It's possible such an action would cause a few onlookers who were just going to go in and vote for whatever candidate the thought was least bad to vote for an independent candidate. But I don't think voting third party has any real tangible results. Remember when Ralph Nader ran his major campaign, getting the most votes for a third party in a while and then George Bush never did anything to protect the environment, labor or consumer safety?
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: DieCommie]
#8827360 - 08/25/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmm, burning the ballot, that is a tantalizing option I hadn't thought of. I could picture myself walking through my voting precinct with a flaming ballot in my hand with a stone faced, dead-eyed stare. Not exactly my style though to be honest. Besides, I don't like that it wouldn't be counted.
I think it would be great to get all the disenfranchised to rally around one ridiculous figure so that when the final tallies come in, they're forced to report that Mickey Mouse received 2% of the vote or whatever he would get. I picked Mickey Mouse because he's the classic joke vote, he's an obnoxious corporate trademark, and his name has come to be associated with inferior quality workmanship.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8827376 - 08/25/08 08:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: Yea but are you trying to show the candidates you don't care for them or are you trying to show other people how disaffected you are and indeed that it is ok to show how disaffected you are with the candidates. It's possible such an action would cause a few onlookers who were just going to go in and vote for whatever candidate the thought was least bad to vote for an independent candidate. But I don't think voting third party has any real tangible results. Remember when Ralph Nader ran his major campaign, getting the most votes for a third party in a while and then George Bush never did anything to protect the environment, labor or consumer safety?
The only reason third parties don't stand a chance is because the circular logic people employ by saying that "since 3rd parties can never win, I'll never vote for them".
How much sense does that make?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: DieCommie]
#8827381 - 08/25/08 08:47 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: The big two parties dont get a tally of how many ballots were burned. They do get a tally of how many ballots chose neither of them.
exactly mickey mouse voting, or not voting, is childish.
Accomplishes nothing.
There are not two candidates, as has been said. I won't vote for either of the two either. Don't like federal intervention in your life? Taxes that take your wealth for programs you don't support?
Vote for a libertarian. Or if you like the greens, vote them.
You think the dems/reps care if you vote for mickey mouse or some fictional candidate? No, they don't.
You think they care if you do vote, but don't vote for them? Yes, they do. You then represent someone who is more educated than most, I'd reckon, and who is acutely aware of their positiions and votes against them. You are someone that could have voted for them, if they weren't so different from who you did vote.
If libertarians got 10% of the vote they would have a huge influence. These would be folks who would love to vote for a mainstream candidate, but won't cuz of neglect of state and individual rights. Then the politicians could adjust their views to be more rights friendly and allow states to keep more of their own money for their own programs. When the vote even reaches ten percent, this will be enough 'swing' voters to elect anyone who cares to adopt a few of their issues- such as being against drugs and other victimless crimes but being against federal force stopping purely intrastate matters, or against redistributing taxes of the people to fund programs that violate a state's ability to govern themselves.
We've got a bunch of roadblocks all the time ran with federal money. You get stopped and harrased due to federal funds being available for no purpose but these sobriety checkpoints (which find far more people with drugs, for example, than they do people intoxicated).
I won't vote for the 'two' candidates, but I will vote. And that vote will be tallied and the people will see there is one guy who won't vote against liberty.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: Redstorm]
#8827568 - 08/25/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: The only reason third parties don't stand a chance is because the circular logic people employ by saying that "since 3rd parties can never win, I'll never vote for them".
How much sense does that make?
It's not just a circular logic How do you create awareness of your platforms without the $$$ that comes from either being a democrat or republican. It takes a lot for any third party system to get any attention never mind be able to clearly articulate their platforms. Furthermore most contemporary politicians rely on their base and pander to relative party outsiders. How is an independent candidate going to be capable of pandering so well without the media attention that requires cash and or outrageous actions.
And johny 10% libertarian vote? Really? come on man I doubt you could get that many.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8827788 - 08/25/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: The only reason third parties don't stand a chance is because the circular logic people employ by saying that "since 3rd parties can never win, I'll never vote for them".
How much sense does that make?
It's not just a circular logic How do you create awareness of your platforms without the $$$ that comes from either being a democrat or republican. It takes a lot for any third party system to get any attention never mind be able to clearly articulate their platforms. Furthermore most contemporary politicians rely on their base and pander to relative party outsiders. How is an independent candidate going to be capable of pandering so well without the media attention that requires cash and or outrageous actions.
And johny 10% libertarian vote? Really? come on man I doubt you could get that many.
maybe publish your platform?
If people gave a shit they could figure shit out for themselves, same as I did. I've never voted for someone or became aware of them cuz of an ad.
People should look who's running and check them out. Its even easier for third party candidates since they seem more uniform from year to year in belief than the main party candidates. While the dems and reps are the same on high taxes and gov't spending your money to tell you what you can and cannot do, and eviscerating state control, they seem to have differnt issues/platforms every year in the wedge issues.
Course with a mainstream candidate it is next to impossible to figure out what they want to do and how, since they are so vague. At least if they were a legislator you can look at their votes.
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: johnm214]
#8827981 - 08/25/08 10:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, if only Sen. Obama or Sen. McCain were legislators...
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: Senor_Doobie]
#8828918 - 08/26/08 02:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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nobody reads platform papers. A candidate couldn't get .5% of the vote on their published platform. In fact, looking at how often politicians dodge the obligation to make definite statements about where they stand, I don't see any evidence to suggest that one's stance is in any way beneficial toward getting votes. More often than not the thing that gets votes are endorsements from respected people or abstract comments that stoke the emotions of morons.
The changing issues are usually buzz topics that have more to do with the art of pandering and attacking your opponent's credibility. Even if your libertarian party was a main party in the running it would probibly have to do this to try to win.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8828970 - 08/26/08 02:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah people probably don't, but they should. As well as take a look at what the candidate has attested to believing over time and how they've performed.
I agree with you though, and think stupid sound bites as well as some social type appeal to the party and its members draws people to a candidate. Most people I think would vote for a party irregardless so this is why third parties are important. People don't vote on issues, they vote for the party. Like the blacks... Never vote republican, so why care about their issues? Same w/ alot of republican voting blocks.
I agree the libertarians would change if they got to be serious contendors, but so what? I won't vote for em if they stop doing things I support and they no longer seem like they put out the best candidates. I support them now, not for all time.
People should vote for the best candidate and base that off of statements and records.
LIke plato I think said, maybe kant or someone?, you should live your life as if your actions would be adopted universally. In voting, I think that is definatly true. You shouldn't worry about historical success or whatever, cuz your support is of that candidate, and the vote tally has nothing to do w/ history.
Like I say, when a third party or group of them has enough votes to swing elections reliably, their positions will be hugely influential. Since the main parties are often at stalemates up to election day with a few points difference, there is no reason why this can't happen in the future... And then the main contendors will have to make compromises and they no longer get to ignore huge blocks of their supporters and take folks' votes for granted.
Maybe one day we'll have a candidate be asked about national healthcare and he'll say "why does it matter? Why should the president have anything to do with healthcare? If states want to have a socialist system, let them, nothing I can or should do about it"
crime: "I don't care unless it crosses state lines or comes from another country. I don't care if people deal drugs/kill each other in nebraska, that's not my problem. Ask the governor/legislature of NE what they want to do, not my problem."
et cet. How refreshing would that be?
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: johnm214]
#8829017 - 08/26/08 03:01 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Refreshing, yes, but such a candidate would be eaten alive. People elect their leaders to lead, not to pass the buck on important issues, even if those issues are best left to the states. I doubt we'll see a return to federalism for that reason.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
#8831462 - 08/26/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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don't waste your vote use it. if enough people vote third party eventually some day we may be able to legitmately choose from the lesser of three evils instead of two.
the founding fathers envisioned it entirely plausible to have five or more canidates running in an election. as i see it now only a democrat or a republican can reasonably enter office but theres no reason that cant be changed... but ya gotta start somewhere.
if a third party managed to win even one electoral vote in a modern election it would be HUGE. maybe delaware? its only 3 countys, or wyoming no body lives there... we could all move and flood thoose booths with third party votes
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 5 days
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8831511 - 08/26/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: Yea but are you trying to show the candidates you don't care for them or are you trying to show other people how disaffected you are and indeed that it is ok to show how disaffected you are with the candidates. It's possible such an action would cause a few onlookers who were just going to go in and vote for whatever candidate the thought was least bad to vote for an independent candidate. But I don't think voting third party has any real tangible results. Remember when Ralph Nader ran his major campaign, getting the most votes for a third party in a while and then George Bush never did anything to protect the environment, labor or consumer safety?
Third parties have a VERY tangible effect in the electorate. They take votes away from those who would vote for one of the established parties, thus adding to the pool for whatever other major party is running.
You take it from the inside, or wait until the body is disaffected enough to abandon the other two parties to a majority of 1/3, and only AFTER the electoral college is reformed/removed, because that is why it is put into place. To keep the odd-ball out of office.
This requires the loss of influence of the mainstream media. This requires work, and the internet is likely the biggest threat to this traditional power structure they've ever seen.
This may not be a news-item, but Obama should NEVER have made it past the presidency. The main reason he did was because the networking done online, and the appeal to younger voters who sit out the polls. Like 9/10 of my friends.
No vote is...like letting police search your car. You have the right to refuse...until you don't. You have the right to vote, whether you have faith in it or not...until you don't.
We must defend the rights we have. Otherwise, the example is taken, it's realized that we are submissive, and they are taken as convenient.
That, historically speaking, is where things get REALLY bad. There are hundreds of examples, in similar contexts.
~Monk
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
#8831531 - 08/26/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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>the founding fathers envisioned it entirely plausible to have five or more canidates running in an election.
Then they should have chosen a better electoral system. FPTP voting only allows for two parties. Condorcet knew this, and he was around the same time as the founding fathers, though in their defence Condorcet was probably only just formulating his ideas when the constitution was written, so the founding fathers chose the best system they knew of (FPTP, the British system). However it is not the best system now, and it should have been updated long ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (08/26/08 04:46 PM)
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 5 days
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
#8831550 - 08/26/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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More than two parties in an election is a LOONG way back in the past. But hopefully not too far away in the future. The polarity is a threat to us as a nation, at this point in history.
~Monk
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: numonkei]
#8831553 - 08/26/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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>More than two parties in an election is a LOONG way back in the past. I'm not that familiar with the history of the US political parties. Was there ever a time when there was more than 2 parties with equal chance of winning?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 5 days
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
#8831586 - 08/26/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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There were a few transitions. Most ideologically similar to their predecessors, like republicans carried similar ideals to the modern democrats in the mid 1800's.
But really, unless you consider the Whig party of the earl-mid 1800's as a 'third party' there has NEVER been an independent candidate to win the POTUS, ever.
They have always hindered the closest party when they have captured a good, real share of the electorate.
And with the EC, it's pretty much a moot point either way.
~Monk
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: numonkei]
#8831723 - 08/26/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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i totally agree that the current system is in dire need of reform and a ranking of most to least desirable canidate seems like a viable solution but how do you get the guys who only need to fight it out with each other(dem.+rep.) to allow a third party to enter the picture? the way i see it as possible is to have a substantial vote for third party canidates. where by the the 2nd place finisher and thier party would cry foul becasue the thrid party "stole their votes" it happened when nader pushed hard(and he failed to get an electoral vote). and the system was receently questioned following the Gore Vs. Bush debacal. they way i see it is that the time is very near to make every possible effort for reform the elctoral system, and surely gather that amount of votes for a third party and include at minimum one electoral vote would make a HUGE impact.
as it stands the democrats/republicans see it as they have roughly a 50% chance. add a third party and that cointoss goes out the window. it be like having the coin land on its edge.... if a third party starts getting votes... is it likely? no but could it happen hell yes, shit ive done just that before once.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
#8831790 - 08/26/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamandcheese said: the way i see it as possible is to have a substantial vote for third party canidates. where by the the 2nd place finisher and thier party would cry foul becasue the thrid party "stole their votes" it happened when nader pushed hard(and he failed to get an electoral vote). and the system was receently questioned following the Gore Vs. Bush debacal. they way i see it is that the time is very near to make every possible effort for reform the elctoral system, and surely gather that amount of votes for a third party and include at minimum one electoral vote would make a HUGE impact.
as it stands the democrats/republicans see it as they have roughly a 50% chance. add a third party and that cointoss goes out the window. it be like having the coin land on its edge.... if a third party starts getting votes... is it likely? no but could it happen hell yes, shit ive done just that before once.
yep, the margins of winning are enough to elect any mainstream candidates if we even get 10% third party vote that is somewhat coherent. A 5% block, say libertarian politicians, would be enough quite often if only some of them switched to back a mainstream candidate who made some token concessions- I know I would love to back a candidate that could win.
The fallacy that you should vote for who would win is silly. The fallacy that you need to win elections to influence politicians is even sillier. Those libertarian/greens/whoever could represent enough votes to swing the election.
Hopefully with the expanding availability of the internet the mainstream media will play less of a role, and we'll see enough folks vote third party to get some coverage in that same media Maybe then the sheep will figure out that there is a very real way, historically tested, to affect politics without winning elections, and score key changes.
And whoever mentioned the electoral college is a little too cynical, honestly. In my state, and I presume others, the candidate himself picks his electors. When he wins electors he wins the right to choose his own folks to vote for him. True those folks can turn on him, but couldn't you find people who wouldn't?
The electoral college system needs to go, but it is not the most pressing issue. More important is the manner in whichc states award electors. It stops third parties from getting any in many states with a winner take all system or at least one where you need a substantial number of votes to get electors proportional to your voting percentage.
This is something the dems/reps will fight tooth and nail, but maybe eventually we'll see some change in that direction. Democracy does work, the problem is getting folks involved, as the politicians won't change things that benifit them unless they get some gain out of it. When the third party blocks start edging mainstream candidates from winner take all to nothing we'll see motivation. Even costing someone to go to second place by one popular vote has a huge effect in elector distribution in most states if I recall correctly.
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 5 days
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
#8831953 - 08/26/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamandcheese said: i totally agree that the current system is in dire need of reform and a ranking of most to least desirable canidate seems like a viable solution but how do you get the guys who only need to fight it out with each other(dem.+rep.) to allow a third party to enter the picture? the way i see it as possible is to have a substantial vote for third party canidates. where by the the 2nd place finisher and thier party would cry foul becasue the thrid party "stole their votes" it happened when nader pushed hard(and he failed to get an electoral vote). and the system was receently questioned following the Gore Vs. Bush debacal. they way i see it is that the time is very near to make every possible effort for reform the elctoral system, and surely gather that amount of votes for a third party and include at minimum one electoral vote would make a HUGE impact.
as it stands the democrats/republicans see it as they have roughly a 50% chance. add a third party and that cointoss goes out the window. it be like having the coin land on its edge.... if a third party starts getting votes... is it likely? no but could it happen hell yes, shit ive done just that before once.
Yeah, this is WAY past due. Since a mis-representation in the early 1800's, (I forget the name of the case), a major rail corporation lost a civil case to an individual.
The court reporter wrote that the 'Corporation has the same rights in state, (soon to be adopted at the federal level), court as the individual man', instead of 'Corporation DOES NOT have the same rights in state...court as the individual man'.
The rest is history.
The money moves the government. Our Utilitarian/Egoist philosophy on economics has done well for those of us at the moment we win and also left us alone for when we hurt.
The words sound nice, but don't be deceived. Check your local paper. Right next to the article on what the candidates say, a few pages back, the donations received this week. We may do a little in our donations, if we choose to do so.
But WE haven't made these candidates bought, paid for, and in our corner. I don't think there has been a real exception to this since FDR, when it was possible to decry the moneyed interests. Maybe a few along the lines who did nothing, but it's unlikely we'll see another New Deal environment until after this election. When things either get REALLY bad, (Like Depression bad), or things stay stagnant/improve, and the other party wins in 2012 and Quetzalcoatl eats all of our brains!
~Monk
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ScavengerType
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
#8831999 - 08/26/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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a ballot for that sort of election, though the best representative of the peoples desires, would be confusing as fuck for many people.
Single Transferable Vote This method though not as good would be less confusing for people and adequate results in comparison.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
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Loc: Next Level
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8832143 - 08/26/08 07:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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so either you have no faith in the publics intellegence what so ever or, or you think that the people designing would be so incompetent as to fail to make it understandable?
not saying either is unlikely just curoius as to which it is.
this is the method we use to vote for our "class representatives" since the fifth grade so im pretty sure its do able.
we listed the top three canidates in order of most suitable to fill the postion to least suitable. granted yes that was a written ballot but im sure you can come up with a viable scantron-esque format.
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ScavengerType
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
#8832235 - 08/26/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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First off both probibly but the former especially.
the example of such a ballot on the wikipedia site you listed was a large table squaring each competitor off against each other, Imagine a large table that squared each politician off against each other it would take forever to fill out.
Your classroom example is similar to the STV system I linked to except the person simply ranks a cretin amount of candidates from one to whatever the limit was like 6 I think. The one difficult component about this system was how do you count it? The STV system seemed odd like it was working in a forced effort to elect diverse minority governments. That's OK because when politicians have to compromise and work together across the party lines things work better then when the party can dogmatically enforce a party line. A reverse scoring system would probibly be more appropriate ie. vote of 1 = 6 points vote of 6 = 1 point
Though even with a reformed voting system it'd be a while before you seen any major alternative party in the government.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: numonkei]
#8832719 - 08/26/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said: The court reporter wrote that the 'Corporation has the same rights in state, (soon to be adopted at the federal level), court as the individual man', instead of 'Corporation DOES NOT have the same rights in state...court as the individual man'.
The rest is history.
~Monk
Do you type the monk at the end of every post? That's the only way to do that right?
I don't get the oft-heard objection to the fact that corporations have the same right as an individual. What is the problem? Why shouldn't they? Isn't that the whole point of having a corporation?
What would you do differently; what rights would you deny corporations? I just don't get the problem- at all.
How else would they do buisness? And I don't see how you can deny a fictional entity as sorts the rights of its constituent. Like the objection to huge donations to a politician.
Should I not be able to put up a billboard? If I can, why can't the corporation do so with my money? Why can't the corp. do so with its own money? Same for any other right.
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8832872 - 08/26/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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What I don't get is why do we need more laws anyway? I mean, when you think about it, if we're really progressing as a society, shouldn't we eventually arrive at a perfect, rationally thought out, statistically tested system for administering the government? I have had fantasies about that, that in place of politicians we have mere employees who are required to carry out the laws, but have no power to change them. With the way technology is going, perhaps it would be sufficient to have a direct democracy where everyone could vote directly on any issue that may arise, say twice a year.
But anyway, as far as third parties go, if you really are serious about supporting a third party candidate, I hope you are committed to doing much much more than simply voting. Third parties need hands on proactive support if they are going to have any chance at all. But as I argued in another thread, I believe that kind of effort would be more productive if spent joining one of the two main parties and working to change them from within. And of course, if you don't get your way you could always vote for someone else come November.
I like the idea of changing the voting procedure. I know from hearing in the news of "run-off elections" that much of the rest of the world does it a different way.
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ScavengerType
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
#8833366 - 08/26/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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so in other wards the only way a libertarian candidate could get elected is if they ran as a republican? I dono sounds pretty out there to me.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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mofo
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8833532 - 08/26/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Maybe I can draw a parallel to another topic of fascination of mine; terraforming, the manipulation of a barren planet which results in it becoming habitable to man. If enough people who care about stuff were to join the GOP or the Dems and essentially begin to take over all the operations of that party, I could see it becoming a stepping stone for electing people we are highly satisfied with. I'm talking about not only going to meetings and being vocal about issues, but also getting involved with administrative ends of things as well as fundraising and perhaps even running for local offices, basically gaining influence within the party. I don't think fundraising will be going away soon, but if we can steer more agreeable financial donors to the parties, that would be a step in the right direction. It wouldn't happen over night but I think if we started now, it would have a major effect on the next round of presidential candidates, and the candidates after them just might be us.
I can hear my campaign slogan already, "I didn't get into politics because I like it, I got into it because I hate it"
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hamandcheese
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8833537 - 08/26/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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the reverse scoring is what we used in school.
first choice vote=3 pts second choice vote=2pts third choice=3 pts whoever earns the most "points" wins maybe i should have clearified...
this would require you to fill out a total of 3 little bubbles
you really dont need more than three since people can chose any three of 6 or however many canidates.
so 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choiceXcanidates.
if thats "too complicated" for you to understand and fill out im not so sure i want your vote for the person whos going to be the leader of the country i live for the next 4years to be counted anyway. sounds harsh but the truth can be brutal.
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
#8833912 - 08/27/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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well then we're arguing the same point, I know the system we are talking about does not quite equate exactly with either of the systems we linked to. I know it's a subtle difference but all proportional representation systems are essentially similar and frankly picking one means many different complications and separate political results based on many different internal factors. The next question is "do you think there is a significant interest in reform of how votes are counted in the US to justify attempting a proportional representation model?" I am not a US citizen but it does look like a realistic ambition particularly with how many disaffected voters I see in the US.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8834027 - 08/27/08 02:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Here in Aus we have instant runoff. You number as many candidates you like in order of preference. So in the last election there were 8 candidates on my ballot paper and I numbered 1-3 and left the rest blank. It's easy as piss. The votes are counted that night and a winner is usually announced by 11pm.
The minor parties have more power here than they do in the US.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
#8835448 - 08/27/08 11:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said: Because a vote for Mickey Mouse is a vote of NO CONFIDENCE.
I think either of the two candidates will do nothing but further damage this great country of ours, and further subvert and repeal our rights. I mean, I watch the news almost every night, and I don't even know what either of them stand for, except for a few "hot button" issues. The media has replaced issues with campaign strategies, and that suits the candidates and apparently most Americans just fine. I'm sick of it.
Mr. Natural sez: "Twas ever thus"
Politics and religion. Hard to believe humans can fall for such stuff.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ScavengerType
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: Icelander]
#8837295 - 08/27/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_electoral_system#Preferential_voting This wikipedia page doesn't discuss how scoring works for the preferential voting system in Australia do you know?
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8839620 - 08/28/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Probably the page on instant-runoff would describe it. I understand it, but it takes a bit of explaining, which Wikipedia would be better at.
Here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
It's called "preferential voting" here in Aus but the proper name is instant-runoff, which is a type of single-transferable-vote system (or maybe it's the other way around?) it seems out there's a whole classification scheme for voting systems!
... that wikipedia article is excellent. It describes the arguments for and against the system and describes a few cases where it's been used in the US.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
#8840337 - 08/28/08 07:36 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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instant runoff voting is a very good idea.
It doesn't seem like anyone legitimatly interested in democracy could be against it, however; it seems that it would hurt the powers that be.
I'm all for it in theory
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ScavengerType
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: johnm214]
#8841459 - 08/28/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I suppose runoff is better than point scoring now that I look at it's methodology.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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hamandcheese
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
#8841532 - 08/28/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: well then we're arguing the same point, I know the system we are talking about does not quite equate exactly with either of the systems we linked to. I know it's a subtle difference but all proportional representation systems are essentially similar and frankly picking one means many different complications and separate political results based on many different internal factors. The next question is "do you think there is a significant interest in reform of how votes are counted in the US to justify attempting a proportional representation model?" I am not a US citizen but it does look like a realistic ambition particularly with how many disaffected voters I see in the US.
yes i do belive there is significant interest in reforming how votes are counted, and counted probably isnt the right word, delegated seems more applicable given the electoral college are actually the ones that vote. and even then its not a garentee that they will votefor who we the people have suggested they vote for.(only 24 states have penaltys for a faithless electors)
i don't see how you can say that a single vote system in which the person who has not recieved to most votes can still win is viable. maybe back in the day... but i still think thats questionable at best.
and a third party just doesnot stand any chance what so ever in there. even if by some off the wall chance a third party canidate manages to get more votes than either other canidate, unless he manages to win (most states are winner takes all) enough states to have 50+% of the electors. if they fail to win the state they get nothing, if they fail to have a majority of the electors the vote goes to the house of reps. and since the HOR consist mostly of democraps and repubicans the votes for the third party are pretty much just thrown out.
dont think that something like this hasn't happen. the election of 1824, jackson had the most votes, but lost. the vote went to the HOR with the top three vote getters on the ballot ( the forth place finisher was discarded) and the third had suffered a stroke and stood no chance, so it was basically down to Jackson and J.Q. Adams..... despite having the people vote more for jackson, the HOR chose Adams.... no suprise four years later the got his proverbial political ass beatin by Jackson.
1824 1876 1888 were all fuck ups... we got it right for the next 112 year then 2000..... opps we fucked up AGAIN
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: johnm214]
#8842553 - 08/28/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: instant runoff voting is a very good idea.
It doesn't seem like anyone legitimatly interested in democracy could be against it, however; it seems that it would hurt the powers that be.
I'm all for it in theory
Indeed, it's one of those things that you have to get right the first time, since no matter what you choose, a whole political system will spring up around it and will resist any change.
That said, there's the possibility of some smaller states adopting it. Perhaps NH.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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ScavengerType
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
#8845856 - 08/29/08 02:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you guys have been ignoring the money in this equation. even with these more balanced forms of voting one would be hard pressed to find a green or libertarian seat much less an independent. The money is an immense factor because without money behind it nobody will have heard of some third party more than their already obscure presence.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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