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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
    #8831550 - 08/26/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

More than two parties in an election is a LOONG way back in the past. But hopefully not too far away in the future. The polarity is a threat to us as a nation, at this point in history.



~Monk

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Offlinezouden
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: numonkei]
    #8831553 - 08/26/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

>More than two parties in an election is a LOONG way back in the past.
I'm not that familiar with the history of the US political parties. Was there ever a time when there was more than 2 parties with equal chance of winning?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
    #8831586 - 08/26/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

There were a few transitions. Most ideologically similar to their predecessors, like republicans carried similar ideals to the modern democrats in the mid 1800's.

But really, unless you consider the Whig party of the earl-mid 1800's as a 'third party' there has NEVER been an independent candidate to win the POTUS, ever.

They have always hindered the closest party when they have captured a good, real share of the electorate.

And with the EC, it's pretty much a moot point either way.




~Monk

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: numonkei]
    #8831723 - 08/26/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i totally agree that the current system is in dire need of reform and a ranking of most to least desirable canidate seems like a viable solution but how do you get the guys who only need to fight it out with each other(dem.+rep.) to allow a third party to enter the picture?
the way i see it as possible is to have a substantial vote for third party canidates. where by the the 2nd place finisher and thier party would cry foul becasue the thrid party "stole their votes" it happened when nader pushed hard(and he failed to get an electoral vote). and the system was receently questioned following the Gore Vs. Bush debacal. they way i see it is that the time is very near to make every possible effort for reform the elctoral system, and surely gather that amount of votes for a third party and include at minimum one electoral vote would make a HUGE impact.

as it stands the democrats/republicans see it as they have roughly a 50% chance. add a third party and that cointoss goes out the window. it be like having the coin land on its edge.... if a third party starts getting votes... is it likely? no but could it happen hell yes, shit ive done just that before once.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831790 - 08/26/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:

the way i see it as possible is to have a substantial vote for third party canidates. where by the the 2nd place finisher and thier party would cry foul becasue the thrid party "stole their votes" it happened when nader pushed hard(and he failed to get an electoral vote). and the system was receently questioned following the Gore Vs. Bush debacal. they way i see it is that the time is very near to make every possible effort for reform the elctoral system, and surely gather that amount of votes for a third party and include at minimum one electoral vote would make a HUGE impact.

as it stands the democrats/republicans see it as they have roughly a 50% chance. add a third party and that cointoss goes out the window. it be like having the coin land on its edge.... if a third party starts getting votes... is it likely? no but could it happen hell yes, shit ive done just that before once.




yep, the margins of winning are enough to elect any mainstream candidates if we even get 10% third party vote that is somewhat coherent.  A 5% block, say libertarian politicians, would be enough quite often if only some of them switched to back a mainstream candidate who made some token concessions- I know I would love to back a candidate that could win.

The fallacy that you should vote for who would win is silly.  The fallacy that you need to win elections to influence politicians is even sillier.  Those libertarian/greens/whoever could represent enough votes to swing the election.

Hopefully with the expanding availability of the internet the mainstream media will play less of a role, and we'll see enough folks vote third party to get some coverage in that same media  Maybe then the sheep will figure out that there is a very real way, historically tested, to affect politics without winning elections, and score key changes.


And whoever mentioned the electoral college is a little too cynical, honestly.  In my state, and I presume others, the candidate himself picks his electors.  When he wins electors he wins the right to choose his own folks to vote for him.  True those folks can turn on him, but couldn't you find people who wouldn't?

The electoral college system needs to go, but it is not the most pressing issue.  More important is the manner in whichc states award electors.  It stops third parties from getting any in many states with a winner take all system or at least one where you need a substantial number of votes to get electors proportional to your voting percentage.

This is something the dems/reps will fight tooth and nail, but maybe eventually we'll see some change in that direction.  Democracy does work, the problem is getting folks involved, as the politicians won't change things that benifit them unless they get some gain out of it.  When the third party blocks start edging mainstream candidates from winner take all to nothing we'll see motivation.  Even costing someone to go to second place by one popular vote has a huge effect in elector distribution in most states if I recall correctly.

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8831953 - 08/26/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
i totally agree that the current system is in dire need of reform and a ranking of most to least desirable canidate seems like a viable solution but how do you get the guys who only need to fight it out with each other(dem.+rep.) to allow a third party to enter the picture?
the way i see it as possible is to have a substantial vote for third party canidates. where by the the 2nd place finisher and thier party would cry foul becasue the thrid party "stole their votes" it happened when nader pushed hard(and he failed to get an electoral vote). and the system was receently questioned following the Gore Vs. Bush debacal. they way i see it is that the time is very near to make every possible effort for reform the elctoral system, and surely gather that amount of votes for a third party and include at minimum one electoral vote would make a HUGE impact.

as it stands the democrats/republicans see it as they have roughly a 50% chance. add a third party and that cointoss goes out the window. it be like having the coin land on its edge.... if a third party starts getting votes... is it likely? no but could it happen hell yes, shit ive done just that before once.




Yeah, this is WAY past due. Since a mis-representation in the early 1800's, (I forget the name of the case), a major rail corporation lost a civil case to an individual.

The court reporter wrote that the 'Corporation has the same rights in state, (soon to be adopted at the federal level), court as the individual man', instead of 'Corporation DOES NOT have the same rights in state...court as the individual man'.

The rest is history.

The money moves the government. Our Utilitarian/Egoist philosophy on economics has done well for those of us at the moment we win and also left us alone for when we hurt.

The words sound nice, but don't be deceived. Check your local paper. Right next to the article on what the candidates say, a few pages back, the donations received this week. We may do a little in our donations, if we choose to do so.

But WE haven't made these candidates bought, paid for, and in our corner. I don't think there has been a real exception to this since FDR, when it was possible to decry the moneyed interests. Maybe a few along the lines  who did nothing, but it's unlikely we'll see another New Deal environment until after this election. When things either get REALLY bad, (Like Depression bad), or things stay stagnant/improve, and the other party wins in 2012 and Quetzalcoatl eats all of our brains!




~Monk

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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
    #8831999 - 08/26/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

a ballot for that sort of election, though the best representative of the peoples desires, would be confusing as fuck for many people.

Single Transferable Vote
This method though not as good would be less confusing for people and adequate results in comparison.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8832143 - 08/26/08 07:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

so either you have no faith in the publics intellegence what so ever or, or you  think that the people designing would be so incompetent as to fail to make it understandable?

not saying either is unlikely just curoius as to which it is.

this is the method we use to vote for our "class representatives" since the fifth grade so im pretty sure its do able.

we listed the top three canidates in order of most suitable to fill the postion to least suitable. granted yes that was a written ballot but im sure you can come up with a viable scantron-esque format.


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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8832235 - 08/26/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

First off both probibly but the former especially.

the example of such a ballot on the wikipedia site you listed was a large table squaring each competitor off against each other, Imagine a large table that squared each politician off against each other it would take forever to fill out.

Your classroom example is similar to the STV system I linked to except the person simply ranks a cretin amount of candidates from one to whatever the limit was like 6 I think. The one difficult component about this system was how do you count it? The STV system seemed odd like it was working in a forced effort to elect diverse minority governments. That's OK because when politicians have to compromise and work together across the party lines things work better then when the party can dogmatically enforce a party line. A reverse scoring system would probibly be more appropriate ie. vote of 1 = 6 points vote of 6 = 1 point

Though even with a reformed voting system it'd be a while before you seen any major alternative party in the government.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: numonkei]
    #8832719 - 08/26/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

numonkei said:
The court reporter wrote that the 'Corporation has the same rights in state, (soon to be adopted at the federal level), court as the individual man', instead of 'Corporation DOES NOT have the same rights in state...court as the individual man'.

The rest is history.

~Monk




Do you type the monk at the end of every post?  That's the only way to do that right?


I don't get the oft-heard objection to the fact that corporations have the same right as an individual.  What is the problem?  Why shouldn't they?  Isn't that the whole point of having a corporation?

What would you do differently; what rights would you deny corporations?  I just don't get the problem- at all.


How else would they do buisness?  And I don't see how you can deny a fictional entity as sorts the rights of its constituent.  Like the objection to huge donations to a politician.

Should I not be able to put up a billboard?  If I can, why can't the corporation do so with my money?  Why can't the corp. do so with its own money?  Same for any other right.

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8832872 - 08/26/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What I don't get is why do we need more laws anyway?  I mean, when you think about it, if we're really progressing as a society, shouldn't we eventually arrive at a perfect, rationally thought out, statistically tested system for administering the government?  I have had fantasies about that, that in place of politicians we have mere employees who are required to carry out the laws, but have no power to change them.  With the way technology is going, perhaps it would be sufficient to have a direct democracy where everyone could vote directly on any issue that may arise, say twice a year.

But anyway, as far as third parties go, if you really are serious about supporting a third party candidate, I hope you are committed to doing much much more than simply voting.  Third parties need hands on proactive support if they are going to have any chance at all.  But as I argued in another thread, I believe that kind of effort would be more productive if spent joining one of the two main parties and working to change them from within.  And of course, if you don't get your way you could always vote for someone else come November.

I like the idea of changing the voting procedure.  I know from hearing in the news of "run-off elections" that much of the rest of the world does it a different way.

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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
    #8833366 - 08/26/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

so in other wards the only way a libertarian candidate could get elected is if they ran as a republican? I dono sounds pretty out there to me.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8833532 - 08/26/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe I can draw a parallel to another topic of fascination of mine; terraforming, the manipulation of a barren planet which results in it becoming habitable to man.  If enough people who care about stuff were to join the GOP or the Dems and essentially begin to take over all the operations of that party, I could see it becoming a stepping stone for electing people we are highly satisfied with.  I'm talking about not only going to meetings and being vocal about issues, but also getting involved with administrative ends of things as well as fundraising and perhaps even running for local offices, basically gaining influence within the party.  I don't think fundraising will be going away soon, but if we can steer more agreeable financial donors to the parties, that would be a step in the right direction.  It wouldn't happen over night but I think if we started now, it would have a major effect on the next round of presidential candidates, and the candidates after them just might be us.

I can hear my campaign slogan already, "I didn't get into politics because I like it, I got into it because I hate it"

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8833537 - 08/26/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

the reverse scoring is what we used in school.

first choice vote=3 pts
second choice vote=2pts
third choice=3 pts
whoever earns the most "points" wins
maybe i should have clearified...

this would require you to fill out a total of 3 little bubbles

you really dont need more than three since people can chose any three of 6 or however many canidates.

so 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choiceXcanidates.

if thats "too complicated" for you to understand and fill out im not so sure i want your vote for the person whos going to be the leader of the country i live for the next 4years to be counted anyway. sounds harsh but the truth can be brutal.


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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8833912 - 08/27/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

well then we're arguing the same point, I know the system we are talking about does not quite equate exactly with either of the systems we linked to. I know it's a subtle difference but all proportional representation systems are essentially similar and frankly picking one means many different complications and separate political results based on many different internal factors. The next question is "do you think there is a significant interest in reform of how votes are counted in the US to justify attempting a proportional representation model?" I am not a US citizen but it does look like a realistic ambition particularly with how many disaffected voters I see in the US.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinezouden
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8834027 - 08/27/08 02:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Here in Aus we have instant runoff. You number as many candidates you like in order of preference. So in the last election there were 8 candidates on my ballot paper and I numbered 1-3 and left the rest blank. It's easy as piss. The votes are counted that night and a winner is usually announced by 11pm.

The minor parties have more power here than they do in the US.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: mofo]
    #8835448 - 08/27/08 11:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Because a vote for Mickey Mouse is a vote of NO CONFIDENCE.

I think either of the two candidates will do nothing but further damage this great country of ours, and further subvert and repeal our rights.  I mean, I watch the news almost every night, and I don't even know what either of them stand for, except for a few "hot button" issues.  The media has replaced issues with campaign strategies, and that suits the candidates and apparently most Americans just fine.  I'm sick of it.




Mr. Natural sez: "Twas ever thus"

Politics and religion. Hard to believe humans can fall for such stuff.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: Icelander]
    #8837295 - 08/27/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_electoral_system#Preferential_voting
This wikipedia page doesn't discuss how scoring works for the preferential voting system in Australia do you know?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinezouden
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8839620 - 08/28/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Probably the page on instant-runoff would describe it. I understand it, but it takes a bit of explaining, which Wikipedia would be better at.

Here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

It's called "preferential voting" here in Aus but the proper name is instant-runoff, which is a type of single-transferable-vote system (or maybe it's the other way around?) it seems out there's a whole classification scheme for voting systems!

... that wikipedia article is excellent. It describes the arguments for and against the system and describes a few cases where it's been used in the US.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: I'm voting Mickey Mouse in '08 [Re: zouden]
    #8840337 - 08/28/08 07:36 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

instant runoff voting is a very good idea.


It doesn't seem like anyone legitimatly interested in democracy could be against it, however; it seems that it would hurt the powers that be.


I'm all for it in theory :thumbup:

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