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Offlinebeatlesrock
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Last seen: 19 years, 2 days
how can athiests exist?
    #882074 - 09/13/02 01:55 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

i have never been able to get a clear answer for this. how can you possibly believe that a superior being, whatever that is, doesnt exist? we are all basically ignorant, we know how to survive but we have no understandings of why we are here and how we got here. so how could we be wise enough to know what is the reason for anything, or just the same, what *isnt* the reason for everything?

as ignorant as we all are, it takes faith to believe that "god" doesnt exits, whatever god may be. so i find it hypocritical, arrogant, and a little funny that athiests attack believers of god.

btw, i resent the idea that "God" is a man who lives in heaven behind pearly gates. i think that athiests think everyone who believes in god believes in this sort of being, this doer of good. but its not like that at all.

i would like it if fliquid responded

btw, i am agnostic.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882080 - 09/13/02 01:58 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I believe in trees


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InvisibleSmack31
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882088 - 09/13/02 02:04 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

my personal opinion, and this does not apply to all athiests, maybe i am just thinking in general terms of people that i know... people grow up with all theses ideas of christianity getting thrown at them, and they can see something seriously wrong and false in the matter, so they step out. they take the opposition... but instead of starting to seek the truth once they step out, instead of looking further, they built up their defense to hold their ground... but then again i've been drinking a tad, so i'm probably just rambling one aspect of a topic...  :grin:


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882102 - 09/13/02 02:13 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

im not really sure what to believe, i cant put something this important on faith alone. im not sure what happens when we die, as is everyone else.... which i think has alot to do with a lot of peoples dependancy on "god" because if they believe in god, then they have a place to go when they die, making death seem not so permanent and lifeless. my question is, why doesnt god speak through burning bushes anymore? i mean, why doesnt he just show himself so discussions like these wont be necessary? i am truley a NON believer.... i dont believe in gods' existance(or that is, any of the contempory existances i.e. the man behind the pearly gates) nor do i refute the possibility of there being one. i do HOPE that there is something out there, so that when we die we just dont turn into worm food...i also hope that if there is a god, hes not as selfish, petty and erogent as the one so oftenly described on these forums.


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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InvisibleSmack31
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #882146 - 09/13/02 02:30 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

i think one thing to consider is "does god really have human qualities." does he really speak to people, or do these people that "talk to god" really just collect an understanding somehow...

and as far as what happens when you die... you're body may die, but the energy that gives you life cannot. it may transform, but energy does not die. and for the people that believe in evolution as and deny creation... what did we evolve from, there had to be some point at which something was created in order for it to evolve.. and for the people that give a single God the all power... where did God come from, what created him?

we need to takes a few steps beyond the typical arguments of god/evolution, because for me anyway, it all leads back to questions that are impossible to answer.


all i know is that there is an energy that gives us life... where it comes from i don't know.


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Offlinedogkisser
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882395 - 09/13/02 04:48 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I.......well........i believe in................people with dogs should pick up the fuckin shit after their damn dog........i step in dog shit too often........POOPER SCOOP PEOPLE!....


--------------------
Once the doors of perception have been unlocked, Never again can they be locked, Only restricted..if one knows how...
http://www.angelfire.com/clone/hallucinogen/index.html

Drugs - Life


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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882456 - 09/13/02 05:24 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I believe in the wind, especially when I break it.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Smack31]
    #882460 - 09/13/02 05:25 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

see.....thats what bugs me....who says it has to be either creation or evolution.....why not both? couldnt it be possible that god created evolution? i mean, the order in which things were created in the bible are in the same order as they supposedly evolved. and the bible makes no reference to how long adam and eve roamed around in the garden naked and eating the yummy mushrooms and what not.... i am neither for creation or evolution.....there seems to be evidence and holes for both.....


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882462 - 09/13/02 05:25 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

lol :grin: 


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Smack31]
    #882527 - 09/13/02 06:04 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

you're body may die, but the energy that gives you life cannot. it may transform, but energy does not die.

Unless I'm missing something very obvious here, your statement can be easily argued. What is energy? I'm assuming you are referring to the energy as physicists know it; "the quantity of work a system is capable of doing." If this in NOT the energy you are talking about, you don't need to read the rest of my post.

Ok, so we know that our nervous systems basically conducts tiny electric pulses that control our body movements and thoughts in our brain. Is this the energy that gives us life, or better put, our awareness of existence through our consciousness? All our brain is doing is transmitting little pulses of energy through our neurons. When you die, that energy just dissolves into your body. Whether you die from old age or from a gunshot wound, your organs stop functioning and whatever energy is in them, is stored. That is why we decompose slowly and don't turn into ashes the moment we die. It takes energy to keep your body functioning properly and not eroding away. The life energy you're talking about seems to be going somewhere....may I ask how and where to? That is how does it leave your dead body and where does it go? So in a sense I agree with your statement, energy transforms and it cannot be destroyed, what I'm saying is that it goes back in the earth.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Smack31]
    #882565 - 09/13/02 06:28 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I agree Smack... I know alot of people who were fed fundamental Christianity when they were young and as a result rebelled against it, but instead of seeing that some aspects of religion may contain truth, they set up a wall of doubts and fear against questions such as "is there a god?" and "is there an after-life?" and these doubts constantly nag at them and hold them back from one of the main goals of spirituality -inner peace and knowing. To me this is just an imbalance of logic... but who am I to say what is balanced and not? It all comes down to what you feel inside.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: chodamunky]
    #882596 - 09/13/02 06:48 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

so the earth is our god :grin: 


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisiblematts
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #882638 - 09/13/02 07:09 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882688 - 09/13/02 07:33 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

God reminds me a lot of Hitiler. God says "if you don't follow me blindly, and put your faith in me, I will send you to a place where you will suffer for all of eternity."

Something tells me that's people at the top of organized religion speaking, not God...
Don't judge the shepherd by the sheep.  :smile: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Invisiblematts
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Adamist]
    #882696 - 09/13/02 07:36 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882700 - 09/13/02 07:38 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Damn organized religion.  :mad: 


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882714 - 09/13/02 07:51 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

First of all, how do you know which of the following (if any) is "right"?

Christianity
Judaism
Islam
Buddhism
Hinduism
Confucianism
Taoism
Shinto
Ancient Roman
Ancient Greek
Incan
Aztec
Rastafarianism
etc...

Clearly there is no consensus on the matter. As you learn about them, some of them may strike you as being almost "silly". It is good to remember that mythology is somebody else's religion. Also, not all religions have deities.

In the end you also come to the realization that almost everybody just follows whatever beliefs their parents taught them.

Another approach then is to look for ideas and beliefs. How would you choose between the Christian God and, for example, the Titans or Brahma? Saying that this or that happens and we don't understand how isn't a very good basis - it is much too easy to fall into the "god of the gaps" problem. One is also still left with the origin of the deity or deities to explain, and answers like "they were just there" hardly solve the problem.

Of course, I can't just walk up to God and say hi and shake his hand. The Hindus have their gods manifest as avatars from time to time, so you could shake their hands and chat with them. I'll admit that I haven't studied Hinduism enough yet to give it a good evaluation.

From an atheistic veiwpoint, the simplest answer is that the universe was just there and eliminate the deities. Current physics even tells us that matter is spontaneously created and destroyed around us all the time. Why should I need to invoke a being (of whatever nature) to cause things to happen? Attributing ludicrous attributes to the being (omniscience or omnipotence, for example) certainly doesn't help things any.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #882721 - 09/13/02 07:55 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I have never been able to get a clear answer for this: How can you possibly believe that a superior being exists?

I believe a superior being doesn't exist for the same reason I believe the tooth fairy doesn't exist: zero indication, zero evidence. Just stories.

In reply to:

we are all basically ignorant, we know how to survive but we have no understandings of why we are here and how we got here.




I think we have a pretty good understanding of how we got here. Nobody wil ever answer why we are here. Man's attempts at doing so have resulted in religion.

In reply to:

as ignorant as we all are, it takes faith to believe that "god" doesnt exits, whatever god may be. so i find it hypocritical, arrogant, and a little funny that athiests attack believers of god.




Hypocritical how?
Arrogant how?
Funny how?

FYI one doesn't have to attack believers of God to be an atheist. It also takes faith to believe ANYTHING. Why is a supernatural God a likely explanation for why we are here?

In reply to:

i think that athiests think everyone who believes in god believes in this sort of being, this doer of good.




That's ridiculous. Why do you think that?

In reply to:

but its not like that at all.




Umm... how do you know this?


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Smack31]
    #882727 - 09/13/02 07:56 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Your Back is smackwards now. What gives?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #882753 - 09/13/02 08:05 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Interesting.

Define matter please.

Cheers,


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Invisiblematts
matts

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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882778 - 09/13/02 08:18 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882785 - 09/13/02 08:21 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

How bout this: mass.

Or this: anything that isn't nothing :smirk:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Invisiblematts
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #882806 - 09/13/02 08:26 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882808 - 09/13/02 08:27 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Thank you.  This is a bit different from the shoe string theory but, no matter. :wink:

If matter is as you have defined it then I know of no time in which it is being created or destroyed.  I am aware of certain exnihilation and annihilation but I do not think that atoms are what ToxicMan is talking about.

Let's wait and see, shall we? :smile:

Cheers, 


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Invisiblematts
matts

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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882816 - 09/13/02 08:30 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882817 - 09/13/02 08:31 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Define perception please.


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Invisiblematts
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882828 - 09/13/02 08:34 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882847 - 09/13/02 08:41 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

If you enjoy physics I have a present for you.

Go here

Enjoy, I doubt that you'll like it. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882870 - 09/13/02 08:48 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

You assent to the interpretation portion of the term, perception, but did not indicate the portion which is recognition. Is there a reason why?

Cheers,


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Invisiblematts
matts

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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882880 - 09/13/02 08:52 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882919 - 09/13/02 09:12 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Have you looked in a dictionary lately? You seem to be conflating interpretation with recognition.


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Invisiblematts
matts

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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #882924 - 09/13/02 09:15 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

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Anonymous

Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #882942 - 09/13/02 09:28 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I was using the primary or secondary meaning.  Your usage confuses rather than enlightens.

You don't get out much, do you? :grin:

Cheers and nice to meet you!


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: ]
    #883531 - 09/14/02 08:10 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Rather than put it into my own words, I'll post a link.

Here is an article which includes a bit on particle-antiparticle pair creation and destruction.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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Offline_VisioN_
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Smack31]
    #883542 - 09/14/02 08:17 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Smack u are a smart man, and serially wut is goin on with ppl in these threads? i dont CHOOSE not believe in a superior being its jus that if a superior being does exists dont u think he knows if u truly have faith or not? and i do not have a faith, so regardless whether he exists or not is of no consequence becuz the whole point of religion is to believe and that god is omnipotent and well i think if he was then that defeats the purpose of me lying to myself and i believe thats when we atheists become atheists, when we realize "if hes there he knows we dont truly believ so lets stop the bullshit". this is just one of many reasons why i am an atheist. another being that religion was created by MAN! therefore it is falliable and corrupt. im sorry but this is one of the giant reasons why i am an atheist, it is all the greed of MAN to bind their brethren, and i refuse to be another sheep following the false promise that is religion and its heaven. AND i am curious wheter u ask this question out of curiousity or out of disrespect, becuz it seems to me that everyday i find more and more ppl that judge even they preach that only GOD is fit, to judge and in the words of another shroomerite i think it was OoD "are u god?"


-Vision


--------------------
ShRoOmZ
Long live...METAL!!!


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: matts]
    #883662 - 09/14/02 09:40 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Sorry you took that seriously. I'll put more happy faces next time.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Invisiblevkk_
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: chodamunky]
    #884216 - 09/15/02 10:00 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

It takes energy to keep your body functioning properly and not eroding away. The life energy you're talking about seems to be going somewhere....may I ask how and where to? That is how does it leave your dead body and where does it go? So in a sense I agree with your statement, energy transforms and it cannot be destroyed, what I'm saying is that it goes back in the earth.

Our energy comes from the food we eat, when we die, micro-organisms and bugs and worms eat us, and our energy becomes thiers.


--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #10282649 - 05/04/09 10:12 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:



btw, i resent the idea that "God" is a man who lives in heaven behind pearly gates. i think that athiests think everyone who believes in god believes in this sort of being, this doer of good. but its not like that at all.




Clearly you don't understand atheism very well.

It is not about having faith that there is no god.
Do you believe that life comes from a giant sort of machine that spits out universes, each containing planets that have a seed destined to grow and evolve into a society? Why not? Does it take faith not to believe in this?

Quote:


btw, i resent the idea that "God" is a man who lives in heaven behind pearly gates.




Why? If you don't believe in that version, then you must have faith that its not true.


My point is that its not just specific detailed versions of God that are silly. The very concept doesn't come from any kind of evidence. God, no matter the definition is certainly not required to explain anything about the universe.

Conciousness and intelligence are human traits. I find it incredibly arrogant to think that these human traits are somehow a fundamental part of the universe. The universe would still be here without intelligence and conciousness, no matter the form.


First off, you might want to read some of the writings by famous atheists like Richard Dawkins, they go into a lot more detail. Most real atheists will admit that some people might technically call them agnostics.

Unlike a believer, if I were shown any real evidence that God existed, I would consider it. I would love to see this evidence, I would find it fascinating. However, I have seen no such evidence, and while I admit that it's not something that can be proven in any way, I don't see any more reason to believe in god than I do to believe in space unicorns.

Here's the thing, intelligence is neither intrinsically superior or inferior. Sure you can say one person or creature is smarter than the other one, but obviously that doesn't make them a higher power or anything.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Phluck]
    #10282673 - 05/04/09 10:18 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Holy shit, I was just thinking of you this weekend.  :eek:

I see a lot of ol' timers popping up now and then.  Weird.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282682 - 05/04/09 10:20 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

let this topic die


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #10282690 - 05/04/09 10:22 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the order in which things were created in the bible are in the same order as they supposedly evolved




Umm, no. You might want to go back and reread that.

He creates heaven and earth. Then night and day. Then land. Then grass, then fruit trees. Then evening and morning. Then he made creatures in the water, and birds at the same time. Then whales and moving animals, and more birds.

Then cattle and creeping animals. Then he made humans.

This doesn't come anywhere close to following what we know about how life evolved.


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Phluck]
    #10282697 - 05/04/09 10:23 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The talking snake in the Bible should have been a good hint that the Bible is metaphorical. Amazing how much people never got this.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Smack31]
    #10282706 - 05/04/09 10:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

and for the people that believe in evolution as and deny creation... what did we evolve from, there had to be some point at which something was created in order for it to evolve




Well, look it up. Nobody knows exactly how the earliest life formed, but there are simple amino acids that could conceivably be put together into a simple life form though chemical reactions. It doesn't have to be magically "created".

It has been theorized that new life has been created from scratch regularly in some of the underwater steam vents.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Phluck]
    #10282754 - 05/04/09 10:43 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Phluck]
    #10282766 - 05/04/09 10:47 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

First off, you might want to read some of the writings by famous atheists like Richard Dawkins, they go into a lot more detail.




Interesting.  Dawkins has admitted natural selection is a matter of faith for him:

Quote:

Natural selection, um, well, I suppose that is a sort of matter of faith on my, on my part since the theory is so coherent and so powerful.


~ Richard Dawkins

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Atheism_Tapes/Richard_Dawkins


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282773 - 05/04/09 10:50 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

First off, you might want to read some of the writings by famous atheists like Richard Dawkins, they go into a lot more detail.




No thanks.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10282784 - 05/04/09 10:54 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If you don't expose yourself to both sides of an argument how can you tell which side is correct, or if neither are?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282793 - 05/04/09 11:00 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I already know which side is correct. I am not curious about what makes an atheist tick.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: beatlesrock]
    #10282828 - 05/04/09 11:13 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

How many people are atheists because the big religions embarrass them? I bet there's loads of people who don't have a strong opinion on it, they just see "Hey, this is a viable alternative. Never heard of the atheist crusades, or the freethinker jihad"


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Anonymous]
    #10282832 - 05/04/09 11:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So what made the universe? For me I say I don't know. religious people say a god made the universe. but then who made god? It'll just go on forever, so let's just be mystified with why we're all here without having to blame another concious being.

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."
  - [Carl Sagan]


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Phluck]
    #10282857 - 05/04/09 11:21 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:



It is not about having faith that there is no god.






Then your either an agnostic or confused.


Unless your one of the atheists who insists they are agnostic, you are taking it on faith or confused logic.



Demonstrate their is no god.  You can't, therefore if you claim to logically hold he doesn't exist you are wrong and must have faith or confusion as the basis.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: johnm214]
    #10282880 - 05/04/09 11:31 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Phluck said:



It is not about having faith that there is no god.






Then your either an agnostic or confused.


Unless your one of the atheists who insists they are agnostic, you are taking it on faith or confused logic.



Demonstrate their is no god.  You can't, therefore if you claim to logically hold he doesn't exist you are wrong and must have faith or confusion as the basis.




Yep.  Nice one.  :thumbup:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282894 - 05/04/09 11:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I resent being classified in terms of what I am are not. Terms like non-white, non-christian are offensive. Perhaps the term non-god believer is the same.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10283725 - 05/04/09 03:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I already know which side is correct. I am not curious about what makes an atheist tick.




Such iron-clad certainty.  Always good to see dogma superior to rationality.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10283753 - 05/04/09 03:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
I already know which side is correct. I am not curious about what makes an atheist tick.




Such iron-clad certainty.  Always good to see dogma superior to rationality.




Assumptions, you know what they say about that don't you? I have no dogma and am rational. Try again.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10283778 - 05/04/09 03:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Assumptions, you know what they say about that don't you? I have no dogma and am rational. Try again.




I would consider 'knowing' the truth to be the definition of dogma.  I am rational and am also aware that I do not know anything for certain except for the fact that I exist; all other beliefs I have are merely guesses supported by evidence and not facts.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10283805 - 05/04/09 03:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Edited for misread*

There are two definitions of atheism

the doctrine or belief that there is no God
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

Agnostic comes up with

someone who is doubtful or noncommittal about something
of or pertaining to an agnostic or agnosticism
a person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)
uncertain of all claims to knowledge


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Edited by Grapefruit (05/04/09 03:50 PM)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #10283850 - 05/04/09 03:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
There are two definitions of atheism

the doctrine or belief that there is no God
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods




The second option isn't very coherent.  It obviously rules out the possibility that I'm a theist, but I could also either believe that there is no God or remain agnostic.  It certainly doesn't communicate atheism in the strong sense.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10283887 - 05/04/09 03:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Atheist is not believing is god (probably along with doubt)
Agnostic is on the fence

That's my definition. :shrug:

Atheism in the strong sense is pretty ridiculous anyway.


--------------------
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Edited by Grapefruit (05/04/09 03:53 PM)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10283888 - 05/04/09 03:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Humans are born atheist...


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #10283892 - 05/04/09 03:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Atheism in the strong sense is pretty ridiculous anyway.




How about atheism in the strong sense about the flying spaghetti monster?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10283903 - 05/04/09 03:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Flying spaghetti monsters are mostly, falsified. Not completely but mostly.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #10283928 - 05/04/09 04:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe in santa claus as much as i don't believe in god though as i see no evidence.


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10283963 - 05/04/09 04:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Carl Sagan has an absolutely wonderful quote which I can't find right now, but it's to the following effect:

What the religious man misunderstands is that science, though it robs the world of God, does nothing to rob the world of beauty. The more is known about the world the more wondrous it appears, and if the religious man seeks beauty, love, and wholeness (as most purport to do), then turning to science would do them much good in their pursuit.


Personally, I do not believe in God because I have never seen any reason to -- but I absolutely believe that the world is vast, beautiful, intricate, and fulfilling beyond measure. Are these not the feelings that belief in God is meant to evoke? And does knowing these things about the world based on real investigation and realization not strengthen one's awareness of them?

It seems to me that belief in God does nothing but place an intermediate entity between oneself and the beauty of the universe. What is to be gained from doing so? I see no benefit.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10283981 - 05/04/09 04:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
It seems to me that belief in God does nothing but place an intermediate entity between oneself and the beauty of the universe. What is to be gained from doing so? I see no benefit.



Hey, conformity has its benefits! :sheepie:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10284061 - 05/04/09 04:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
Assumptions, you know what they say about that don't you? I have no dogma and am rational. Try again.




I would consider 'knowing' the truth to be the definition of dogma.  I am rational and am also aware that I do not know anything for certain except for the fact that I exist; all other beliefs I have are merely guesses supported by evidence and not facts.




Ok, I have evidence of higher beings. I do not have evidence all the way up to God. I also have evidence that I would much rather study the higher beings than atheism.

Prove that you exist.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284065 - 05/04/09 04:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
It seems to me that belief in God does nothing but place an intermediate entity between oneself and the beauty of the universe. What is to be gained from doing so? I see no benefit.




If God is real this sentence makes no sense.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284073 - 05/04/09 04:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Prove that you exist.



I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest shit a person can say when arguing with an atheist.
You are talking to the person, how the fuck do you justify challenging their existence?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284088 - 05/04/09 04:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
It seems to me that belief in God does nothing but place an intermediate entity between oneself and the beauty of the universe. What is to be gained from doing so? I see no benefit.




If God is real this sentence makes no sense.



WTF is God? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284116 - 05/04/09 04:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

No it isn't stupid, it has nothing to do with Atheism. You could be AI. You could be living in a dream, in which you would still exist but not in the form you think you are in. I could be dreaming you.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284132 - 05/04/09 04:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
It seems to me that belief in God does nothing but place an intermediate entity between oneself and the beauty of the universe. What is to be gained from doing so? I see no benefit.




If God is real this sentence makes no sense.



If two equals zero, almost every statement in mathematics makes no sense. Fortunately, statements only have to make sense in relation to things which are real. Mathematicians don't have to account for the case in which zero equals two because there is no observable system in which it's true. We don't have to account for the case in which god exists because there's no observable system in which it's true.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284133 - 05/04/09 04:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
No it isn't stupid, it has nothing to do with Atheism. You could be AI. You could be living in a dream, in which you would still exist but not in the form you think you are in. I could be dreaming you.



:lol:, if he was AI, living in a dream, or being dreamed by you, then by definition, he exists! :imslow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284139 - 05/04/09 04:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
It seems to me that belief in God does nothing but place an intermediate entity between oneself and the beauty of the universe. What is to be gained from doing so? I see no benefit.




If God is real this sentence makes no sense.



If two equals zero, almost every statement in mathematics makes no sense. Fortunately, statements only have to make sense in relation to things which are real. Mathematicians don't have to account for the case in which zero equals two because there is no observable system in which it's true. We don't have to account for the case in which god exists because there's no observable system in which it's true.



Religion. Imaginations. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284172 - 05/04/09 04:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
:lol:, if he was AI, living in a dream, or being dreamed by you, then by definition, he exists! :imslow:




I dreamed about a dog last night and I can't find him anywhere. You think he exists?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284190 - 05/04/09 04:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Of course he does, or else why would you even mention him? :shrug:


What do you think the word 'real' means? What do you think existence is? How are dreams unreal and/or nonexistent? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284198 - 05/04/09 04:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Uh Poid by that logic all something requires to exist is for someone to think it exists ... which would imply that despite all evidence, god is one of the most real things there is.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284210 - 05/04/09 04:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Real - being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary:

A dream is real. Are the objects in the dream real. It is a real dream character but is it a real dog? No, you have to feed real dogs.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284216 - 05/04/09 04:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Not necessarily. God and other imaginary characters exist as thought forms; those thought forms are real in and of themselves, but they may not exist beyond one's imagination.


Eric Cartman is real, but he's not an actual human being.


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284232 - 05/04/09 05:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Real - being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary:

A dream is real. Are the objects in the dream real. It is a real dream character but is it a real dog? No, you have to feed real dogs.



So is your imagination nonexistant?


You have to feed real dogs real food, and dream dogs dream food. The dream dog is real, nonetheless, because it exists. God exists as this vague phenomenon that apparently nobody can define, and nothing more.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284241 - 05/04/09 05:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Not necessarily. God and other imaginary characters exist as thought forms; those thought forms are real in and of themselves, but they may not exist beyond one's imagination.


Eric Cartman is real, but he's not an actual human being.




Yes Poid, Eric Cartman is a real cartoon character, but not a real person. The easter bunny is a real thought form not a real bunny.  Write that down.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284255 - 05/04/09 05:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:

So is your imagination nonexistant?






Right.

Quote:


You have to feed real dogs real food, and dream dogs dream food. The dream dog is real, nonetheless, because it exists.





I never feed my dream dogs, I hope they are ok.

Quote:


God exists as this vague phenomenon that apparently nobody can define, and nothing more.




You can believe as you wish. I don't care.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284259 - 05/04/09 05:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Wow, you guys are making some great progress here.  :thumbup:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284260 - 05/04/09 05:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So, acknowledging all that, mad_cow, you still are of the opinion that god is real, and not just a real idea?

EDIT: I mean obviously that little exchange didn't shake your faith, but what criteria are you using to differentiate god from being just an idea?


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Edited by laserpig (05/04/09 05:07 PM)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284264 - 05/04/09 05:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Not necessarily. God and other imaginary characters exist as thought forms; those thought forms are real in and of themselves, but they may not exist beyond one's imagination.


Eric Cartman is real, but he's not an actual human being.




Yes Poid, Eric Cartman God is a real cartoon imaginary character, but not a real person. The easter bunny
God is a real thought form not a real bunny thing.  Write that down.



:thumbup:


Why did you avoid answering my question: 'WTF is God? :confused:'


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284288 - 05/04/09 05:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:

So is your imagination nonexistant?






Right.

Quote:


You have to feed real dogs real food, and dream dogs dream food. The dream dog is real, nonetheless, because it exists.





I never feed my dream dogs, I hope they are ok.

Quote:


God exists as this vague phenomenon that apparently nobody can define, and nothing more.




You can believe as you wish. I don't care.



Wow, you think your imagination is nonexistent. :facepalm:


"I never feed my dream dogs, I hope they are ok."

:angrydog:


"You can believe as you wish. I don't care."

This is a debate forum, I have no clue why you are coming in here with that kind of attitude. :nono:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284293 - 05/04/09 05:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
So, acknowledging all that, mad_cow, you still are of the opinion that god is real, and not just a real idea?

EDIT: I mean obviously that little exchange didn't shake your faith, but what criteria are you using to differentiate god from being just an idea?




I stated that I believe in higher beings, because of things that have happened to me. I know they are not God. I have no direct evidence that there is a God. I believe that there is a God. I think it is like a cosmic consciousness or un-manifest field type of thing.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284300 - 05/04/09 05:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Ok, I have evidence of higher beings. I do not have evidence all the way up to God. I also have evidence that I would much rather study the higher beings than atheism.




Fair enough.  Just pointing out that this is a far cry from 'knowing' whether atheists or theists are correct.

And BTW you are correct in that I can't prove my own existence to you, but I do not need to for it is self-evident to the only person for whom it matters: myself.  :lol:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10284310 - 05/04/09 05:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Mad_Cow I think you maybe need a better definition of belief. A belief is something that you hold to be true (definite), how can you say god is definite?


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10284331 - 05/04/09 05:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say God is definite.

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Ok, I have evidence of higher beings. I do not have evidence all the way up to God. I also have evidence that I would much rather study the higher beings than atheism.




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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284332 - 05/04/09 05:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I stated that I believe in higher beings, because of things that have happened to me. I know they are not God. I have no direct evidence that there is a God. I believe that there is a God. I think it is like a cosmic consciousness or un-manifest field type of thing.



If you can't define your claim then you aren't really claiming anything at all.

Poid's right -- this is a debate forum. Coming in here with the attitude of "I'm right about something I can't define for reasons I refuse to explain" is an absolute waste of everyone's time.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284341 - 05/04/09 05:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I didn't say God is definite.

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Ok, I have evidence of higher beings. I do not have evidence all the way up to God. I also have evidence that I would much rather study the higher beings than atheism.







So you don't believe in him, you are suspicious that he might exist. As I said i think you got your definitions muddled.


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284348 - 05/04/09 05:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Why did you avoid answering my question: 'WTF is God? :confused:'




Sorry.
God is an overused phrase for the highest level of consciousness.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284370 - 05/04/09 05:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So people who are more self-conscious are closer to God? :tongue:


What if every single living being in the universe was dead? Technically, there would be no consciousness to speak of, so according to your definition, there would be no God. Does God's existence rally depend on the existence of sentient beings?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #10284383 - 05/04/09 05:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
I didn't say God is definite.

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Ok, I have evidence of higher beings. I do not have evidence all the way up to God. I also have evidence that I would much rather study the higher beings than atheism.







So you don't believe in him, you are suspicious that he might exist. As I said i think you got your definitions muddled.




I said the atheists are incorrect, I suppose this may be an incorrect statement. I am more of an I don't fucking care. I don't want to study atheism or religion. That is where this started, when MM said I should know both sides of the argument.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284392 - 05/04/09 05:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
So people who are more self-conscious are closer to God? :tongue:


What if every single living being in the universe was dead? Technically, there would be no consciousness to speak of, so according to your definition, there would be no God. Does God's existence rally depend on the existence of sentient beings?




That is making the assumption that all consciousness is in living beings.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284420 - 05/04/09 05:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
That is making the assumption that all consciousness is in living beings.



An assumption I would LOVE to see you discredit.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284427 - 05/04/09 05:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I don't want to study atheism or religion.



There really isn't much to study about atheism...


Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:
So people who are more self-conscious are closer to God? :tongue:


What if every single living being in the universe was dead? Technically, there would be no consciousness to speak of, so according to your definition, there would be no God. Does God's existence rally depend on the existence of sentient beings?




That is making the assumption that all consciousness is in living beings.



Where else could it be? Half Dome?



Are you asserting that consciousness can be attributed to inanimate objects?


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284459 - 05/04/09 05:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Laserpig said:
If you can't define your claim then you aren't really claiming anything at all.





I don't claim to be claiming anything.


Edited by mad_cow (05/04/09 05:40 PM)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284480 - 05/04/09 05:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What the hell, I didn't say that! :shakefist:


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284482 - 05/04/09 05:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
That is making the assumption that all consciousness is in living beings.



An assumption I would LOVE to see you discredit.




The burden of proof lies on Poid.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284493 - 05/04/09 05:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What the hell, I didn't say that! :shakefist:




sorry, I fixed it.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284503 - 05/04/09 05:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What are you playing at?
Do you think this thread reflects favorably on you?
Making a poorly-thought-out claim then shifting it then completely changing it then backing out of it?

It's increasingly clear that you don't have a point, you don't have a platform, and you don't even have a concrete idea. You've started a debate based on nothing. Was this your plan? To waste our time?

I was really hoping you were going somewhere with this, but apparently not. I thought this thread had potential, but I was apparently mistaken. What a disappointment.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284509 - 05/04/09 05:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I already tried to debate that particular issue with you, and you just ignored it. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284555 - 05/04/09 05:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
What are you playing at?
Do you think this thread reflects favorably on you?
Making a poorly-thought-out claim then shifting it then completely changing it then backing out of it?

It's increasingly clear that you don't have a point, you don't have a platform, and you don't even have a concrete idea. You've started a debate based on nothing. Was this your plan? To waste our time?

I was really hoping you were going somewhere with this, but apparently not. I thought this thread had potential, but I was apparently mistaken. What a disappointment.




:cryariver:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284564 - 05/04/09 05:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I already tried to debate that particular issue with you, and you just ignored it. :shrug:




I am sorry poid. I have been fielding stupid questions from angry little militant atheists. What was your question? I have to go to dinner soon.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284573 - 05/04/09 05:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
I don't want to study atheism or religion.



There really isn't much to study about atheism...


Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:
So people who are more self-conscious are closer to God? :tongue:


What if every single living being in the universe was dead? Technically, there would be no consciousness to speak of, so according to your definition, there would be no God. Does God's existence rally depend on the existence of sentient beings?




That is making the assumption that all consciousness is in living beings.



Where else could it be? Half Dome?



Are you asserting that consciousness can be attributed to inanimate objects?




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10284597 - 05/04/09 05:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There are books like the god delusion. The atheists must have something they want to say.

I think that consciousness exists in everything. Like the holographic universe. I don't think rocks have consciousness by themselves.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284599 - 05/04/09 05:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This is the problem with trying to discuss atheism among anyone other than people who are already atheists. The believers, who don't know any better, end up avoiding questions and going nowhere.

I wish I could have a rational discussion with a believer, I really do, but the more I try the more it seems impossible. Precise adherence to rationality just isn't in their nature.

Though I'm sure they'd like to think otherwise, I think that may be a requirement for them to even BE a believer. Within the structure of rationality, I haven't yet found a logic path which leads to the existence of god. When I try to get someone else to explain their logic path, all I ever find is that they don't have one.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284646 - 05/04/09 06:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
There are books like the god delusion. The atheists must have something they want to say.



Yeah, they want to talk about how nobody is born believing in God.


Quote:

mad_cow said:
I think that consciousness exists in everything. Like the holographic universe. I don't think rocks have consciousness by themselves.



You think consciousness exists in everything, yet you don't think that rocks have consciousness by themselves? With whom/what do rocks have consciousness with, then? How does this all relate to the holographic universe theory?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284654 - 05/04/09 06:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said: Precise adherence to rationality just isn't in their nature.




Now now, that's a bit of a hasty generalization.  I'd say most people seem to be similar in that they possess mostly the same level of rationality; it's just that atheists and theists start from radically different premises.


--------------------
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Invisiblemad_cow
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10284730 - 05/04/09 06:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
This is the problem with trying to discuss atheism among anyone other than people who are already atheists. The believers, who don't know any better, end up avoiding questions and going nowhere.

I wish I could have a rational discussion with a believer, I really do, but the more I try the more it seems impossible. Precise adherence to rationality just isn't in their nature.

Though I'm sure they'd like to think otherwise, I think that may be a requirement for them to even BE a believer. Within the structure of rationality, I haven't yet found a logic path which leads to the existence of god. When I try to get someone else to explain their logic path, all I ever find is that they don't have one.




:cryariver:

Read up on Shamanism and you will have your path to God.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284931 - 05/04/09 06:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'll be honest.  I'm not reading one more stupid-ass atheist vs. religion thread.  At this point in time, I don't care who believes what.  If someone asked me, "Does God exist?"  I'd say, "Who cares?"


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10285088 - 05/04/09 07:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10285097 - 05/04/09 07:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
:thumbup:




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285166 - 05/04/09 07:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Now now, that's a bit of a hasty generalization.  I'd say most people seem to be similar in that they possess mostly the same level of rationality; it's just that atheists and theists start from radically different premises.



When I say "precise adherence to rationality" I mean precise. I'd say maybe 1% of people actually commit themselves to rationality, and I'm not counting myself in that 1%. It's something I strive for, but can't claim to have accomplished.

My belief -- and this is just belief -- is that there is a real set of things which make sense and can be understood in relation to each other. Within these set of things is an accurate description of the world. Any other belief, as far as I see, leaves us with absurdities.

As regards premises: starting from the right premise is a part of rationality. A rational person evaluates their own premises before progressing.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285230 - 05/04/09 07:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
As regards premises: starting from the right premise is a part of rationality. A rational person evaluates their own premises before progressing.




Yeah, I suppose.  The problem is that you have to start somewhere with axioms that do not rely upon other evaluations or more fundamental assumptions.

This is the difference between having a valid and a sound argument.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285232 - 05/04/09 07:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
When I say "precise adherence to rationality" I mean precise. I'd say maybe 1% of people actually commit themselves to rationality, and I'm not counting myself in that 1%. It's something I strive for, but can't claim to have accomplished.




I don't think any human beings are 100% objective, or completely rational in their thinking. Everybody has a percentage of subjectivity in their conceptualizations of the universe, and everybody has a percentage of irrationality in their thinking. The difference between us is just how large this percentage is, and I don't necessarily believe that this percentage is higher in theists than in atheists. Probably there are some theists that are more rational and more objective than what some atheists are. Just like there are some atheists that are more rational and more objective than what some theists are.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285302 - 05/04/09 07:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

God is just a cooked up idea by human to explain things we couldn't understand, like solar eclipses the moon changing phases etc. Now that we have everything electron microscopes and space spaced telescopes we can examine the universe in a more comprehensive fashion than in any previously known time in history. With all of this data we are gathering we have learning how animals reproduce and even how individual cells reproduce. The science behind this is pretty solid and makes a lot more sense to put my faith in science since I can definitely observe it having an impact on my life. For instance knowing about plant biology has led to better and more potent strains of marijuana. Putting my faith in any sort of god doesn't get me anywhere in life. Other living things die and I'm no different from a tree or a dog. Other living humans die. What evidence is there of an afterlife or reincarnation? If you can provide credible evidence for an afterlife or reincarnation perhaps belief in some sort of god or superstition would make sense. Until then I'll keep believing in science because it makes sense and is practical!


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #10285319 - 05/04/09 07:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
God is just a cooked up idea by human to explain things we couldn't understand, like solar eclipses the moon changing phases etc. Now that we have everything electron microscopes and space spaced telescopes we can examine the universe in a more comprehensive fashion than in any previously known time in history. With all of this data we are gathering we have learning how animals reproduce and even how individual cells reproduce. The science behind this is pretty solid and makes a lot more sense to put my faith in science since I can definitely observe it having an impact on my life. For instance knowing about plant biology has led to better and more potent strains of marijuana. Putting my faith in any sort of god doesn't get me anywhere in life. Other living things die and I'm no different from a tree or a dog. Other living humans die. What evidence is there of an afterlife or reincarnation? If you can provide credible evidence for an afterlife or reincarnation perhaps belief in some sort of god or superstition would make sense. Until then I'll keep believing in science because it makes sense and is practical!




I certainly believe in science, but I can also believe in a mono-holo-pantheistic God at the same time. There is nothing in science that conflicts with my belief in a mono-holo-pantheistic God. In fact, quantum entanglement and systems theory resonates quite well with my belief in a mono-holo-pantheistic God.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Glenners]
    #10285346 - 05/04/09 08:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Glenners said:
So what made the universe? For me I say I don't know. religious people say a god made the universe. but then who made god? It'll just go on forever, so let's just be mystified with why we're all here without having to blame another concious being.

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."
  - [Carl Sagan]




I love that Carl Sagan quote. As for what created God, that's an interesting question. Is it a loop? Does one universe evolve and form another? Was it just a thought, and if so, where did that thought originate?

That's a big question. The big bang doesn't really answer it, because it just says "There was this one little point of infinite smallness, then space, energy, trees, credit cards, the word "douchebag" and Willie Nelson."


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285354 - 05/04/09 08:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You think consciousness exists in everything, yet you don't think that rocks have consciousness by themselves? With whom/what do rocks have consciousness with, then? How does this all relate to the holographic universe theory?



Ask a rock.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285384 - 05/04/09 08:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You're obviously not taking this debate seriously...:whatever:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285413 - 05/04/09 08:14 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You're obviously not taking this debate seriously...:whatever:




I guess not, I thought this was for fun. I think some people need to lighten up. I don't know everything about rock consciousness and holographic universes, I am sorry I have failed you.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285417 - 05/04/09 08:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It would make sense if you wanted to have a light discussion about this in the Pub or something, but not in here...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Anonymous]
    #10285471 - 05/04/09 08:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

this fred is like 7 years old


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285494 - 05/04/09 08:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
It would make sense if you wanted to have a light discussion about this in the Pub or something, but not in here...



:whatever: Last thing I need is to get hammered by children over my beliefs on God. You have nothing I want.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285505 - 05/04/09 08:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:
It would make sense if you wanted to have a light discussion about this in the Pub or something, but not in here...



:whatever: Last thing I need is to get hammered by children over my beliefs on God. You have nothing I want.




It's a shame that for some people holding onto their beliefs is more important than discussing possibilities for truth with other seekers of knowledge.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285506 - 05/04/09 08:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Alright, cool, but you just don't seem to understand the way this forum is supposed to work. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285531 - 05/04/09 08:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:
It would make sense if you wanted to have a light discussion about this in the Pub or something, but not in here...



:whatever: Last thing I need is to get hammered by children over my beliefs on God. You have nothing I want.




It's a shame that for some people holding onto their beliefs is more important than discussing possibilities for truth with other seekers of knowledge.




What is this supposed to mean?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285540 - 05/04/09 08:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It means that identification with one's beliefs is an inferior method for finding truth.  Dispassionately welcome any and all criticism; what does not kill your ideologies only makes them stronger.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285554 - 05/04/09 08:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

And what does kill them is only releasing you from misconception.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285559 - 05/04/09 08:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

And/or delusion! :crazyeyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285568 - 05/04/09 08:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

misconception sounds nicer but yeah :stoned:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285612 - 05/04/09 08:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Three little atheists less than half my age are acting foolish. The day I need help from you sorting out my beliefs will be never. You don't want to learn anything. You want to tear me apart. :whatever:


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285622 - 05/04/09 08:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

C'mon now, there are plenty of people your age who are more then twice as foolish as us! :tongue2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285625 - 05/04/09 08:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
It means that identification with one's beliefs is an inferior method for finding truth.  Dispassionately welcome any and all criticism; what does not kill your ideologies only makes them stronger.




Punching bricks makes your bones stronger. Go do that.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285627 - 05/04/09 08:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
C'mon now, there are plenty of people your age who are more then twice as foolish as us! :tongue2:




No, there aren't.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285635 - 05/04/09 08:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Why do that when calcium supplements will do the trick? :tongue:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285640 - 05/04/09 08:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

Poid said:
C'mon now, there are plenty of people your age who are more then twice as foolish as us! :tongue2:




No, there aren't.



You're...serious..? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285655 - 05/04/09 08:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Three little atheists less than half my age are acting foolish.




1. I am not an atheist.

2. What does age have to do with whether or not a belief is contradictory?

3. Who is more the fool, the man who covers his ears and shouts LA LA LA whenever dissenting opinion is heard, or the man who willingly listens with a good heart and responds for the betterment of all?

Quote:

mad_cow said:
The day I need help from you sorting out my beliefs will be never.




So why post here?

Quote:

mad_cow said: You don't want to learn anything.




That's the whole point of this forum.  :rolleyes:

Quote:

mad_cow said:
You want to tear me apart. :whatever:




Again with this ego-identification.  We seek to tear apart your beliefs and not you.


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285662 - 05/04/09 08:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
It means that identification with one's beliefs is an inferior method for finding truth.  Dispassionately welcome any and all criticism; what does not kill your ideologies only makes them stronger.




Punching bricks makes your bones stronger. Go do that.




Only if you substitute faulty beliefs for the bricks.  :grin:


--------------------
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285665 - 05/04/09 08:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Poid said:
Why do that when calcium supplements will do the trick? :tongue:




Your bones are like honeycombs, martial artists punch brick to break the cells resulting in a much denser bone. It is much better than calcium supplements.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285675 - 05/04/09 08:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for that little tidbit of information! :super:


I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't know what to say. :tongue:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285697 - 05/04/09 08:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
I already know which side is correct. I am not curious about what makes an atheist tick.




Such iron-clad certainty.  Always good to see dogma superior to rationality.




Assumptions, you know what they say about that don't you? I have no dogma and am rational. Try again.




Sums up the thread pretty completely.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285730 - 05/04/09 08:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Personalisms such as You three are assholes. are not allowed in P&S.

That sums up the thread.


Edited by deCypher (05/04/09 08:59 PM)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: johnm214]
    #10285773 - 05/04/09 09:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well this thread sure got fagged up.


Quote:

deCypher said:

Quote:

mad_cow said:
You want to tear me apart. :whatever:




Again with this ego-identification.  We seek to tear apart your beliefs and not you.





Indeed.  It is amazing how transparently offended people will get at discussion of their ideas.


Why the hell does anyone need to have their beliefs validated anyways?  I believe in god and don't pretend I can ever find logical support for such.  Who gives a shit.  Do you people have a fit if you can't deduce who to love?  There's no reason you have to be totally logical, just don't claim shit that ain't so.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: johnm214]
    #10285791 - 05/04/09 09:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, but you shouldn't come into P&S unless you want to have a logical debate, and you shouldn't react negatively to people here who want just that.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285842 - 05/04/09 09:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There are no real atheists here. Just a bunch of people bitter about their christian upbringing. All lead by the court jester.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: johnm214]
    #10285862 - 05/04/09 09:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

mad_cow, please stop. you're clearly taking this personally, and none of us want that. you're also starting to attack us personally, which is not cool. and no, i was raised atheist actually. i've got no axe to grind.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
It is amazing how transparently offended people will get at discussion of their ideas.



Agreed.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Why the hell does anyone need to have their beliefs validated anyways?



Personally? It's damn good sport. What's more fun than evaluating your worldview? For me, not much. 

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I believe in god and don't pretend I can ever find logical support for such.  Who gives a shit.  Do you people have a fit if you can't deduce who to love?  There's no reason you have to be totally logical, just don't claim shit that ain't so.



But things which are logical are so, and things which ain't logical ain't so. That's the distinction. Logic lets us know what's real and what isn't. At least that's how I define my world.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285874 - 05/04/09 09:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, then at 14 I realized that since I only believed in God "just in case", I don't actually believe in him.

Then I asked myself and the rest of the world, "WTF is God? :confused:", and I never receive the same answer.


I am neither a theist, atheist, or whatever, I just simply am. :levitate:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285881 - 05/04/09 09:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Sure, but you shouldn't come into P&S unless you want to have a logical debate, and you shouldn't react negatively to people here who want just that.





Yeah, like i said, I agree with decypher's amazement at how personal people take shit and how silly it is to want validation of your belief in god when it should be plain its totally unaproachable.





I mean who is getting that pissed off because someone doesn't think like they do and tells them so?  Wholly shit, what an outrage.  My world is collapsing cuz someone doesn't think like me.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285884 - 05/04/09 09:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: johnm214]
    #10285889 - 05/04/09 09:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I love making others feel cognitively dissonant! :wink:


....but it doesn't feel so good when others make me feel that way...:sad:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285895 - 05/04/09 09:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?



If you ACTIVELY REFUSE TO USE RATIONALITY to back up your points, you have no right to be surprised when someone calls them irrational.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285897 - 05/04/09 09:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?



Many possible ways, however, you're the only person here who knows for a fact how you feel about having your beliefs criticized.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285899 - 05/04/09 09:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?




Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.




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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: johnm214]
    #10285912 - 05/04/09 09:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Yeah, like i said, I agree with decypher's amazement at how personal people take shit and how silly it is to want validation of your belief in god when it should be plain its totally unaproachable.





I don't care about the beliefs. It's having my beliefs called delusional and irrational that is the problem. Being ganged up on by 4-5 people doesn't help. There were a lot of other insinuations about what it means if I don't submit to this crap. It is a big problem if I don't lay all my personal shit on the forum for the whole world to see. I won't mention God ever again. I hope that will satisfy you.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285920 - 05/04/09 09:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?



If you ACTIVELY REFUSE TO USE RATIONALITY to back up your points, you have no right to be surprised when someone calls them irrational.




I said it is from things that have happened to me. How can you call that irrational?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285924 - 05/04/09 09:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?




Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.







It doesn't say I can't be pissed off about it.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285936 - 05/04/09 09:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
How could having my beliefs called delusional and irrational possibly offend me?




Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.







It doesn't say I can't be pissed off about it.




Well, you can be pissed off, elated, or downright furious about it.  You just can't insult other members within this forum according to the rules.  (Although feel free to slam their ideas all you want.)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285937 - 05/04/09 09:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

None of us here are pissed off at you, why should you be mad at us? :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285953 - 05/04/09 09:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I stated facts, If you can't handle that you are in the wrong forum.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285959 - 05/04/09 09:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Everything that you stated was rebutted, and that's when you got angry and refused to continue on with the debate. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285961 - 05/04/09 09:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
I said it is from things that have happened to me. How can you call that irrational?



Since you asked: I can call it irrational because you haven't actually communicated a rational thought. You've hinted that you might have something you consider to be evidence hidden away somewhere, but you haven't shared it and you haven't related it to your point. That's not rationality.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10285971 - 05/04/09 09:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
None of us here are pissed off at you, why should you be mad at us? :shrug:





Well poid, why don't you spend an evening like I have had then answer that question yourself.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285993 - 05/04/09 09:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sorry that you've had a bad day, but there's no sense in taking it out on me. I wasn't needling you or purposefully trying to piss you off, and the reason I enjoy frequenting this forum is to engage in debate. That is all. :levitate:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (05/04/09 09:41 PM)


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10285996 - 05/04/09 09:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
I said it is from things that have happened to me. How can you call that irrational?



Since you asked: I can call it irrational because you haven't actually communicated a rational thought. You've hinted that you might have something you consider to be evidence hidden away somewhere, but you haven't shared it and you haven't related it to your point. That's not rationality.




Because I haven't told you means it is irrational. Sound logical to me. Not. The evidence is in my memories. At this point I am not sharing anything. If that makes you thing my beliefs are irrational, so be it. I don't see how you could draw that conclusion. I think you will draw that conclusion because you feel your logic precludes anything I could possibly say. Do you think there is anything anyone could ever say to sway you?


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10286002 - 05/04/09 09:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I'm sorry that you've had a bad day, but there's no sense on taking it out on me. I wasn't needling you or purposefully trying to piss you off, and the reason I enjoy frequenting this forum is to engage in debate. That is all. :levitate:




It wasn't you so much.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10286049 - 05/04/09 09:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Because I haven't told you means it is irrational.



No, but it does mean that you haven't COMMUNICATED rationally. Do you seriously expect me to just take your word for it? For me to hear you say "I believe this but won't say why" and just be good with that? Do you really think that's how a discussion works?

Quote:

Sound logical to me. Not. The evidence is in my memories. At this point I am not sharing anything. If that makes you thing my beliefs are irrational, so be it. I don't see how you could draw that conclusion. I think you will draw that conclusion because you feel your logic precludes anything I could possibly say. Do you think there is anything anyone could ever say to sway you?



There are literally an infinite number of things you could say to sway me. The thing is that you refuse to say them -- you refuse to say anything. You just reiterate your belief, get offended, and act defensive. I don't know how you expect that to be persuasive. If you want to change my mind, then GIVE IT A SHOT. Don't just get angry.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10286097 - 05/04/09 09:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't expect you to take my word for it. I don't care what you think. I don't want to change your mind, once again I don't care what you believe. This was not about beliefs it was about this crap I found insulting.

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
I already know which side is correct. I am not curious about what makes an atheist tick.




Such iron-clad certainty.  Always good to see dogma superior to rationality.




Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

mad_cow said:
Prove that you exist.



I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest shit a person can say when arguing with an atheist.
You are talking to the person, how the fuck do you justify challenging their existence?




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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10286121 - 05/04/09 09:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Out of all sincerity, mad_cow, I am very interested in hearing about your experiences. You should post them in the 'Mysticism and the Paranormal' forum; over there, nobody is going to talk shit about you or your experiences, so it's a safe place to speak about that sort of stuff! :yesnod:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Glenners]
    #10286122 - 05/04/09 09:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

how people speak about their understandings of the universe can be very different from each other.
the terms may not mesh, may clash, may contradict - they may even compel and confuse deliberately.

but a person, 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 arms etc... is very similar to another and may actually feel quite similar in relation to issues bigger than us, and toward time scales that are larger and smaller than we can think of.

once words are chosen, the commonality of feeling, and of our place in the cosmos often collapses unless teams of like thinkers form and hopefully you are lucky to be on the holy team.

I think this team thing forces the mind to collapse into unthinking, and this happens, I think, in the social pressure of gay society too, as if one could be only gay vs. only straight, or only god fearing vs. only atheistic.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10286130 - 05/04/09 09:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If you don't want to know what we think, and you don't want us to know what you think ... why are you posting?

I'm sorry I used some expletives in responding to what I saw (and still see) as poor argument. Once I found out you were so damn sensitive I tried to back off, but you refuse to calm down and accept the fact that we weren't attacking you personally.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10286152 - 05/04/09 09:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Out of all sincerity, mad_cow, I am very interested in hearing about your experiences. You should post them in the 'Mysticism and the Paranormal' forum; over there, nobody is going to talk shit about you or your experiences, so it's a safe place to speak about that sort of stuff! :yesnod:




I'm taking my ball and going home.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10286166 - 05/04/09 10:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I wasn't making fun at all, I think you're taking my words the wrong way.  :dragonballz:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
    #10286199 - 05/04/09 10:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
If you don't want to know what we think, and you don't want us to know what you think ... why are you posting?

I'm sorry I used some expletives in responding to what I saw (and still see) as poor argument. Once I found out you were so damn sensitive I tried to back off, but you refuse to calm down and accept the fact that we weren't attacking you personally.




Funny how this shit only happens in God threads, which I am staying out of. I have posted in plenty of other threads and I don't get the third degree.

Think of it this way. It feels like being a black person at a KKK meeting. All these people saying irrational and delusional and you should be glad to have your beliefs torn apart. That is all fun on your side. It ain't fun on this side.

I have plenty of people to discuss beliefs with, I made my mistake and learned my lesson.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10286203 - 05/04/09 10:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I wasn't making fun at all, I think you're taking my words the wrong way.  :dragonballz:




I know.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10286222 - 05/04/09 10:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Think of it this way. It feels like being a black person at a KKK meeting.




I felt the same way when I showed up at the latest astronomical conference to represent the Flat-Earthers.  :mad2:

Just kidding, of course.  I personally find great fun in holding the minority position and defending my beliefs against others: it builds good debate skills, tolerance when dealing with people, and a moderate temper.


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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10286240 - 05/04/09 10:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mad_cow said:
Funny how this shit only happens in God threads, which I am staying out of. I have posted in plenty of other threads and I don't get the third degree.

Think of it this way. It feels like being a black person at a KKK meeting. All these people saying irrational and delusional and you should be glad to have your beliefs torn apart. That is all fun on your side. It ain't fun on this side.

I have plenty of people to discuss beliefs with, I made my mistake and learned my lesson.



Dude this does not have to be an unhappy thing. You're making it one now but that's not the only way it can be. If you want to turn the tables, all you have to do is start explaining why you believe what you believe. You believe what you believe for reasons right? Of course you do, nobody believes shit for no reason. This could become a friendly and intelligent discussion INSTANTLY -- all it takes is explanation.

I've never heard a rational theory supporting the existence of god, and I'm not confident one exists, but that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility. I would LOVE to be proven wrong ... so give it a shot. Just start explaining yourself. That's all it takes.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10286245 - 05/04/09 10:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

My 7th grade math teacher was part of the Flat World Society. He was also part of the 47 society. Weird, but cool dude...:cool2:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10286252 - 05/04/09 10:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
My 7th grade math teacher was part of the Flat World Society.




Just for shits n' giggles, or did he actually believe that the Earth was flat?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #10286268 - 05/04/09 10:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:justdontknow:


He had a certificate which showed that he was an official member of the Flat Earth Society (it's either Flat Earth, or Flat World, I forget), and a lot of his classroom material revolved around the number 47...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
    #10286279 - 05/04/09 10:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)