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 Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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 Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip??  [Re: deCypher]
#8856712 - 08/31/08 04:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
But since we can never have perfect comprehension of the world around us, it makes sense to argue for the stronger way of understanding over the weaker.
Why?
If all worldviews are incorrect, why not choose the worldview that makes you happiest? Why does it make sense to advocate the one that makes the most effort to attempt to be the least wrong? I'm not sure I understand your metric.
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 g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: Entropymancer]
#8856714 - 08/31/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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On a personal level that's fine, but we're arguing from as objective a perspective as possible, and science is the closest thing we have to objectivity.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: g00ru]
#8856722 - 08/31/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Objectively, Mormons seems a hell of a lot happier than nontheist scientists.
Personally I appreciate science as the cornerstone of my worldview, because it provides a sound basis for understanding pharmacology, which is one of my primary interests. It also provides a good foundation for understanding the functions of life in general.
But saying that science is all there is strikes me as arrogant. Like I said before, mistaking the journey for the destination.
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dissolved
Stranger
Registered: 08/25/08
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
#8856768 - 08/31/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LSDreamer said:
Science is patently all there is. Science is simply discovering and defining the laws that govern universe/multiverse. There can not be anything other than science except when somebody misunderstands what science is.
I just don't follow the theme that defining the laws that govern the universe/multiverse is the ultimate destiny of mankind. That seems to be the attitude I have gotten from every super scientific skeptic I have ever talked with.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: Entropymancer]
#8856806 - 08/31/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Entropymancer said:
Quote:
The Cypher said:
But since we can never have perfect comprehension of the world around us, it makes sense to argue for the stronger way of understanding over the weaker.
Why?
If all worldviews are incorrect, why not choose the worldview that makes you happiest? Why does it make sense to advocate the one that makes the most effort to attempt to be the least wrong? I'm not sure I understand your metric.
Happiness and predictive power are two wholly different things. My post was arguing from the perspective that our ultimate goal is that of understanding how and why things work, and in this sense a method that enables us to test our predictions is preferable to one that does not.
If our ultimate goal is that of happiness, however, then all bets are off. Personally, I'm a subscriber to the belief that ignorance is bliss, and religion or spirituality has a way of offering this solace to the masses. If you truly believe that you have an immortal soul and will continue existing after your body dies, you will probably be happier than the person who believes that there is only nothingness after death and no metaphysical hereafter to look forward to. Of course, the trick is in convincing yourself that this is true--I could never give up knowledge in favor of ignorance, even if it would make me happier.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: deCypher]
#8856899 - 08/31/08 04:55 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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But there are religious sceintists who get to have their cake and eat it too. They get to reap all the benefits of the knowledge/understanding that science offers, but at the same time they recognize that science has nothing to say on the topics of god and the soul, so they also reap the benefits of "ignorance" as you call it (or "faith" as they call it).
Personally I'm not one of those people, but I know a handful. Where do they fit into your "Ignorance (through religion) is bliss" schema?
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twighead
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#8856955 - 08/31/08 05:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I used to be attached to such ideals, but with some mental effort, after deciding a life lived in such rigidity is not exactly enjoyable, i've learned not to be so analytical in everything, and know that anything is possible. Though I'm still an atheist and such, its all about letting your mind go.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: Entropymancer]
#8857010 - 08/31/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Entropymancer said:
But there are religious sceintists who get to have their cake and eat it too. They get to reap all the benefits of the knowledge/understanding that science offers, but at the same time they recognize that science has nothing to say on the topics of god and the soul, so they also reap the benefits of "ignorance" as you call it (or "faith" as they call it).
Personally I'm not one of those people, but I know a handful. Where do they fit into your "Ignorance (through religion) is bliss" schema?
A rational method for analyzing the physical universe and a philosophical approach to the unanswerable questions about life, the universe, and everything? Sounds like a good combination to me, but I'd never advocate it myself.
I'd still say the addition of the latter makes for no pragmatic difference in my worldview--I can get by perfectly without idle speculation that can neither be proven nor disproven, and so there's no necessity to include anything but science within my perspective.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: deCypher]
#8857016 - 08/31/08 05:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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That sounds a lot different than "science is all that there is"?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: Entropymancer]
#8857019 - 08/31/08 05:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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All that's worth talking about, at any rate. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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peterluber
Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 231
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: deCypher]
#8857131 - 08/31/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ignorance is bliss. Retaining any hope of an afterlife or greater power or soul or "God" or anything is making yourself happy, at the expense of knowing any real truth ever. I can't imagine how anyone who has ever had a psychedelic experience could possibly subscribe to this bullshit.
If you're going to believe in some unexplainable thing like an inter dimensional afterlife, can you please be a little more original and come up with something yourself. If you lived your whole life entirely isolated from any religious ideas or suggestions of spiritual phenomena, do you think you would ever think that there was anything besides death after death? That idea, in the form of religion, had to have at some point been invented by a human.
Death is a period, not semicolon.
And fuck this battle of semantics, the word science was being used to refer to the explainable, testable, pattern of matter that is existence. Obviously nobody meant the actual study of that realm. The point is, if there were a "God", it would have to have a physical form. Otherwise, it is obviously nothing more than imagination.
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astronaut
ascetic aesthetic
Registered: 09/11/07
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: peterluber]
#8857196 - 08/31/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
peterluber said:
Ignorance is bliss. Retaining any hope of an afterlife or greater power or soul or "God" or anything is making yourself happy, at the expense of knowing any real truth ever. I can't imagine how anyone who has ever had a psychedelic experience could possibly subscribe to this bullshit.
If you're going to believe in some unexplainable thing like an inter dimensional afterlife, can you please be a little more original and come up with something yourself. If you lived your whole life entirely isolated from any religious ideas or suggestions of spiritual phenomena, do you think you would ever think that there was anything besides death after death? That idea, in the form of religion, had to have at some point been invented by a human.
Death is a period, not semicolon.
And fuck this battle of semantics, the word science was being used to refer to the explainable, testable, pattern of matter that is existence. Obviously nobody meant the actual study of that realm. The point is, if there were a "God", it would have to have a physical form. Otherwise, it is obviously nothing more than imagination.
ignorance is Power, and ignorance is Holy.
truth is a terminal disease.
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In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
Registered: 11/13/07
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: astronaut]
#8857221 - 08/31/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is no truth.
Most of everything that we know as a species is bullshit.
Everything that we have been taught, everything about our history, everything about health, everything about the planet and life and death; its all bullshit.
What ever happened to simply living and observing for ourselves? The only way to find any sort of "truth" is by personal experience alone.
What else do we have to rely upon for answers, when everything that we have learned has been taught with an agenda?
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dissolved
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: satyr]
#8857729 - 08/31/08 09:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Scientific Fundamentalism
Ten Rules of Scientific Fundamentalism Reprinted with permission of The
Wall Street Journal copyright 1993 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All rights
reserved.
1. Science holds the answers to all the questions of life.
2. Anyone who does not believe Rule 1 is not Scientific.
3. Any evidence for intelligent design of the universe is not scientific.
4. Any person who teaches there is evidence for intelligent design of the
universe is not a scientist.
5. Scientists know for a fact that matter is all there is.
6. Anything which is not matter does not matter.
7. Religion or religious impulse is the result of undesirable mutations
in biological matter.
8. Whatever is not science is religion.
9. Only science may be taught.
10. Stuff happens, but only by coincidence.
Provine's Rules of Evolution
From "The Faith of an Atheist" by George Liles, MD, March, 1994, pages
59-64.
1. There are no gods or purposive forces in nature.
2. There are no inherent moral or ethical laws to guide human society.
3. Human beings are complex machines that become ethical beings by way of
heredity and environmental influences, with environment playing a
larger and hereditary a somewhat smaller role than is commonly
supposed.
4. There is no free will in the traditional sense of being able to make
uncoerced and unpredictable choices.
5. When we die, we die--finally and completely forever. (The idea we can
somehow survive death is a myth.)
6. This is what we are and all there is.
As you read through these 16 rules, what was your reaction? To a great
extent, your reaction is a barometer of the kind of indoctrination that you
have had and the extent to which you have accepted that indoctrination! How
many of the statements did you find yourself agreeing with? How many of the
statements do you feel to be scientific or to be what scientists believe?
The Ten Rules of Scientific Fundamentalism were originally written as a
joke or sarcastic jab at the attitudes frequently reflected by people
antagonistic to religion. Several researchers have turned it into a
questionnaire to see to what extent people actually believe these 10
statements. The levels of acceptance among college students have been
reported to be amazingly high, but no detailed analysis of the data has
been released as yet.
The list identified as William Provine's Rules of Evolution is a copy of
statements made by Dr. William Provine to his undergraduate biology class
at Cornell University. Compare his statements with the list of Rules of
Scientific Fundamentalism. Students in this class are not only pressured to
accept Provine's rules, but are also exposed to a constant stream of abuse
and ridicule of belief in God or the Bible. His belief system is basically
that of Scientific Fundamentalism. The very fact that Provine can push his
belief system off on his students and brag about it in a magazine with
national circulation with no repercussions is an indication of the degree
to which the rights of people who do not accept Scientific Fundamentalism
are being ignored. Provine is not alone in his flagrant abuse of those who
reject his assumptions. A huge percentage of the programs offered on
science on television make it clear that they also essentially embrace the
Rules of Scientific Fundamentalism.
Sit down in front of your television set sometime and watch a science
documentary on the Discovery channel, PBS, or CNN. Watch the program and
see how many times the following demonstrations of acceptance of Scientific
Fundamentalism occur.
1. How many times does the program state or imply that there might be an
explanation or answer to the problem that they are addressing that
lies outside of the field of science? It could be a solution from the
arts, from literature, from recreation, morality, or philosophy--not
just religion.
2. How many times does the program acknowledge the fact that there is
more to the cosmos than physical matter? Is there any attention paid
to metaphysics, non-Euclidean mathematics, dimensional forces beyond
time, morality, or energy that is not mechanical in nature?
3. Is there any content in the program that portrays another solution to
the problem being considered other than science? Are solutions from
the arts, metaphysics, etc., mentioned in any kind of a positive way?
4. Is blind mechanistic opportunistic chance the only possibility given
as to how a particular event occurred?
5. How many times does the program denigrate and ridicule religion in
selling its solution to whatever problem it is addressing?
The Ten Rules of Scientific Fundamentalism were written to be humorous, but
they are too true to be funny. Viewpoints like Provine's are not just sad
expressions of personal beliefs. They are malicious promoters of poor
self-image, selfish destructive behavior, and depressive suicidal catalysts
in the minds of our young. No wonder our society is collapsing around us as
the whole world disintegrates in mindless immorality.
Science is not the issue in this problem. Facts do not have the power to
promote bad self-image or motivate the exploitation of others. Einstein
used to say, "Religion without science is lame, but science without
religion is blind." College professors and producers of science
documentaries have a charge to bring the facts to our attention. We all
need to know what has been discovered. When you read through Provine's
rules, how many facts do you find? The next time you watch a science
documentary, take a sheet of paper and draw a line down the middle. On the
left side of the line, list the facts presented in the program. On the
right side of the line, list the opinions, assumptions, faith statements,
conclusions and/or biases of the authors which the program presents. On a
recent trip, I sat in a motel and watched five programs on PBS. Eighty two
percent of the statements made fell into the latter category--in other
words, for every 18 facts, there were 82 attempts to indoctrinate the
viewer with the bias of the producers of the program. Just for fun, I did
the same thing on an series of ads for cars by local car dealers and found
that more facts were given by the car salesmen--31 facts verses 69
statements of opinion or judgment.
We urge you to educate your children and their teachers to the importance
of thinking and analyzing claims. The scientific illiteracy of our
population is directly related to this problem, in this writer's view.
People cannot make good judgments themselves when they are indoctrinated
with the professor or producer's views instead of being given factual
information. We are amazed that people would follow the likes of Jim Jones
or David Koresh, but the exact same thing is happening in science today.
Blind religious fundamentalism is a dangerous thing, but scientific
fundamentalism is just as blind and even more destructive.
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 3,396
Loc: Alpha Canis Majoris
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: dissolved]
#8857757 - 08/31/08 09:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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What a load of b.s. 
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Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: satyr]
#8857770 - 08/31/08 09:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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^^^ 
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: satyr]
#8858283 - 08/31/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
satyr said:
What a load of b.s.
Not sure what you mean. I don't believe in any coherent model of spirituality, any singular mtaphysical guiding deity, any immortal soul, etc.
But as far as I'm concerned, that article is fairly spot-on. Closeminded science-ism is just as laughably narrow as closeminded religious fundamentalism. What exactly is BS about it?
(In particular, I find their Tenets of Scientific Fundamentalism to very accurately capture the blind dogmatism of a few posters in this thread)
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chinabean
Mycoholic
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Loc: Seattle, WA
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: RedRainDrop]
#8858318 - 08/31/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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it might sound corny but i totally "talk" to the shrooms. I ask out loud and in my head to be shown what their true spirit is and keep me safe. Ive had the most mindblowing trips by doing this!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: dissolved]
#8858547 - 09/01/08 12:33 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dissolved said:Viewpoints like Provine's are not just sad
expressions of personal beliefs. They are malicious promoters of poor
self-image, selfish destructive behavior, and depressive suicidal catalysts
in the minds of our young. No wonder our society is collapsing around us as
the whole world disintegrates in mindless immorality.
 A certain amount of skepticism towards completely dogmatic viewpoints is warranted, I'll admit... but when the skepticism comes from such a flagrantly biased religious viewpoint, it becomes much harder to accept.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 3,396
Loc: Alpha Canis Majoris
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: deCypher]
#8859188 - 09/01/08 07:01 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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1. Science holds the answers to all the questions of life. 5. Scientists know for a fact that matter is all there is.
6. Anything which is not matter does not matter. 8. Whatever is not science is religion. 5. When we die, we die--finally and completely forever. (The idea we can
somehow survive death is a myth.)
6. This is what we are and all there is.
All of this is b.s. Science can only answer a very limited number of questions about life. SCIENCE is religion. Death is the end of the physical body, but consciousness is eternal. This is NOT what we are, but what we are simply conscious of at the present moment.
To believe that everything in the universe can be explained and documented, and to believe that if it can not be explained that it is invalid, is blatantly ignorant and represents the same mode of thinking that fuels religious worship.
I have vague ideas about how the universe works, and why things are the way they are, but I have no beliefs. Im open to infinite possibility because that is all there is. What I have experienced in my personal life directly contradicts everything stated above, therefore those things are invalid.
But what it all comes down to is beliefs. That is ALL that there is. How can we KNOW anything? Just because someone else says so? Because it is evident to our eyes, our ears and our senses? Even our senses can become liars, and at this point all we have is intuition, which in my experience is always an accurate guide.
Science instills a very narrow minded way of thinking, closing off all other possibilities and limits us to whatever can fit into its little box of categories and labels.
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Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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