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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10059662 - 03/28/09 11:53 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Right. You say atheism isn't dogmatic. So, I go on to address all you people who aren't dogmatic...

You don't believe in absolute truth. Moral relativists. No concrete, universal sense of right and wrong.

Yesterday, I realized you never brought up anything, which socalled Christians have done to you over many centuries of oppression.

Blood, guts, slaving under the lash. And, for the most part, your complaint is only that I am mentally inflexible.

So, I come here to warn you of abuses, and you can't decide what is good or bad.

All you can think to do is play word games with people of conviction.

You will never find the solidarity to fix these problems in any meaningful way.

Not, so long as you can constantly find new ways of redefining simple words.

It is you, who makes communication difficult.

How can you disagree with people, if you can't decide what words mean?

What if they're really bad people?

Do we know what "bad" means?




Come ON man, there are other cultures that didnt have to posit a eternal judger in the sky to enforce their moral codes. The moral codes seem to be birthed from the earth anyway, but even then what does this giant alpha male in the sky really have to do with it all? If anything in some ways this sort of enforcer will create a decent amount of rebellion from the followers and perhaps result in a disillusionment from this god.

Either way, morality is a human concern which we have always dealt with, nothing really changes when you assert that it all is absolutely handed down from god. What is the significance, what changes?! People that defend that sound like conservative drama queens. People can be evil no matter what! We just have to deal with it.

If your morality and moral actions totally were determined by your belief in a judger God I think we are setting ourselves up for some drama anyway.

Look at Confucianism and how that worked in the east... I dunno man, why are you so scared about people lacking an eternal god as their moral anchor?




damn this thread is a train wreck, hahaha :shrug:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (03/28/09 11:54 AM)

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: andrewss]
    #10059900 - 03/28/09 12:52 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Well generally, it's considered bad form to bring up those things as the knowledge of them is ubiquitous.




Bad? Whose definition of bad?

The Bible says by their fruits ye shall know them, but the people didn't force their leaders to uphold a Biblical standard of rule, under the assumption that the common man didn't have the moral authority to raise questions like those about his superiors.

Do you believe in such a thing as moral authority?

You know meaning of the expression, right?

Quote:

andrewss said:
Look at Confucianism and how that worked in the east... I dunno man, why are you so scared about people lacking an eternal god as their moral anchor?





Confucianism worked in the East...

As in filial piety. As a poster in the Shroomery, have you engaged in any ancestor worship, lately?

Don't the Red Chinese still use that same exam system to prove their moral superiority over one another?

The Red Chinese who perform unspeakable torture on dissidents?

The American people are just as bad.

Yes, we believe in practicing evolution against our fellow human beings. You hear that someone rebelled in the news and assume the punishment was his just rewards. Even his sympathizers say he shouldn't have pushed it. Implicitly, he wasn't as as "fit" as his oppressors.

Whose definition of fit? 

Quote:

andrewss said:
damn this thread is a train wreck, hahaha :shrug:



So, back to the topic...

Can't trip. Lol. Even a wicked despot in the Bible had a relevant dream, which is recited by Christians to this day.

I bet you see amazing things, but they're totally indecipherable to a person without a rigidly defined system of personal values.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Right and wrong. It is your gauge and decoder ring.

In the same way that you can't interpret mystical visions with the skill of a prophet, ordinary Agnostics see amazing things in real life, and are totally blasé, because the things around us have zero underlying meaning to amoral people.

To answer something that came up earlier in the thread, yes, there is a profit motive, behind the indecisive worldview we were taught by the authorities.

Sure, you say current events mean something, but no one person can know what that thing is. So, your feelings are out to lunch. You might be moved but can't tell up from down.

I expect you meant to commiserate with other atheists about your sense of confusion...

-- not to hear about certainties and conviction.

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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Registered: 12/16/07
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10060777 - 03/28/09 04:09 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Right. You say atheism isn't dogmatic. So, I go on to address all you people who aren't dogmatic...

You don't believe in absolute truth. Moral relativists. No concrete, universal sense of right and wrong.

Yesterday, I realized you never brought up anything, which socalled Christians have done to you over many centuries of oppression.




OK.

Christians have, my entire life treated me like crap and tried to tell me what to do, not in a peaceful way either but with an iron fist.

I've seen Christians run a totalitarian village in which nothing could be said or implied that went against any of their beliefs.

I've seen Christians beat kids, and throw them in solitary (where they had to shit in a bucket and every few days clean it out) for being outspoken and questioning doctrine.

I dont believe in absolute morality but I know what pisses me off, and thats people who are intolerant and force their absolute ideologies onto others.

And you Christians are just as guilty of that as anyone save perhaps Muslims.

Oh not to mention, the crusades the inquisition the Salem witch trials and the loads of other totally fucked up shit you guys have done over the past 2000 years.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10061877 - 03/28/09 07:32 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Well generally, it's considered bad form to bring up those things as the knowledge of them is ubiquitous.




Bad? Whose definition of bad?

The Bible says by their fruits ye shall know them, but the people didn't force their leaders to uphold a Biblical standard of rule, under the assumption that the common man didn't have the moral authority to raise questions like those about his superiors.

Do you believe in such a thing as moral authority?

You know meaning of the expression, right?

Quote:

andrewss said:
Look at Confucianism and how that worked in the east... I dunno man, why are you so scared about people lacking an eternal god as their moral anchor?





Confucianism worked in the East...

As in filial piety. As a poster in the Shroomery, have you engaged in any ancestor worship, lately?

Don't the Red Chinese still use that same exam system to prove their moral superiority over one another?

The Red Chinese who perform unspeakable torture on dissidents?

The American people are just as bad.

Yes, we believe in practicing evolution against our fellow human beings. You hear that someone rebelled in the news and assume the punishment was his just rewards. Even his sympathizers say he shouldn't have pushed it. Implicitly, he wasn't as as "fit" as his oppressors.

Whose definition of fit? 

Quote:

andrewss said:
damn this thread is a train wreck, hahaha :shrug:



So, back to the topic...

Can't trip. Lol. Even a wicked despot in the Bible had a relevant dream, which is recited by Christians to this day.

I bet you see amazing things, but they're totally indecipherable to a person without a rigidly defined system of personal values.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Right and wrong. It is your gauge and decoder ring.

In the same way that you can't interpret mystical visions with the skill of a prophet, ordinary Agnostics see amazing things in real life, and are totally blas�, because the things around us have zero underlying meaning to amoral people.

To answer something that came up earlier in the thread, yes, there is a profit motive, behind the indecisive worldview we were taught by the authorities.

Sure, you say current events mean something, but no one person can know what that thing is. So, your feelings are out to lunch. You might be moved but can't tell up from down.

I expect you meant to commiserate with other atheists about your sense of confusion...

-- not to hear about certainties and conviction.




^ That last bit made absolutely no sense to me...


:sunny:

Whatever you say chief

Ethics and morality are the weakest and most inconsequential place to stumble around when debating about Christianity IMO.

What about how ridiculous the notion of heaven and hell is, and what about fate and will when we posit a concerned creator god? See where I am going?

I wouldnt even call myself an atheist... perhaps a "pantheist" if I had to label...

Your beliefs rely totally on dogmatic faith, nothing more needs be said. I guess I just don't have the mind to put blind faith in a religion that seems so misguided. I don't really care about debating about religion anymore. I appreciate the humaness in people who get so stirred up by their religiosity... diversity is good. And at least these days it seems the Christians aren't as powerful and noisy as they once were. :sun:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Registered: 03/11/08
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10064028 - 03/29/09 02:29 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

By whose definition of bad? Are you serious? It's just generally considered to be poor form to bring those things up in a debate of this nature unless it is absolutely necessary as the atrocities committed in the name of Jesus are well known and already factored in to just about everybody's perception of the faith. It isn't a productive point to bring up and is, thus, generally avoided by people who have had this same debate time and again.


--------------------

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InvisibleAtheist
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Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 13,705
Loc: USA
Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10064272 - 03/29/09 04:16 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
I am very logical, rational, and scientific. I am also an atheist. I still have the mind blowing trips that you hear about. The key is to quiet that voice in the back of your head reminding you its just a trick. You need to learn to let go and allow the drug to own you.




WOW THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,593
Loc: Raccoon City
Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10065765 - 03/29/09 12:04 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Deuteronomist, phlebotomist.

I'm getting a kick out of people playing word games with me, but they're worried about bad form in a debate.

You are perfect examples of sliding scales of right and wrong.

I'll bring this up again, since it was glossed over the first few times:

Were bad Christians upholding a Biblical standard?

If so, where is the chapter and verse which told them to do these things?

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OfflineCMACD
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10065813 - 03/29/09 12:09 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

You're denying yourself. You don't get your morals from the bible. If you did, you'd be out trying to slaughter prostitutes & heathens right now. You get your morals from the same place everyone else gets them. Only fundamentalists get their morals from their faith's doctrine. I'm not going to sit here and explain every little fucking thing that influenced the quality of your moral compass, that would just be goofy cause it's a combination of probably a thousand life variables. You really think that a community of human beings needed a rulebook to figure out that maybe stealing from & killing & blaming others isn't the best way to go about your business?


--------------------






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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10065835 - 03/29/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Deuteronomist, phlebotomist.

I'm getting a kick out of people playing word games with me, but they're worried about bad form in a debate.

You are perfect examples of sliding scales of right and wrong.

I'll bring this up again, since it was glossed over the first few times:

Were bad Christians upholding a Biblical standard?

If so, where is the chapter and verse which told them to do these things?




Dude, really? What are you doing? You're actively trying to delve into topics that would carry the debate along for another 50 pages without anybody getting anywhere or hearing anything they haven't already heard a thousand times. Do you feel like as long as the debate is being carried out, you're winning? What's your angle?


--------------------

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10065927 - 03/29/09 12:23 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

What's your angle?



But, I plainly told you my angle, several posts ago.

Our moral compass is the interpreter of our experience.

Predatory people have a profit motive in subverting that compass.

Quote:

You really think that a community of human beings needed a rulebook to figure out that maybe stealing from & killing & blaming others isn't the best way to go about your business?



Yes, I believe all the bad people we mentioned could have used that rule book.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10065981 - 03/29/09 12:31 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

You desperately need to learn some neuropsychology. And learn what a sociopath is. And an amygdala. And the impact that defects and injuries can have on a person. It is completely possible for a person to literally not have a moral compass. Which contradicts your idea that every person knows the difference between right and wrong and then chooses wrong.


--------------------

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10066035 - 03/29/09 12:37 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Actually, I have learned about neuropsychology, and I believe that sociopaths with 'subverted compasses' get off on what they do.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10066071 - 03/29/09 12:40 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Alright, so what.

I think good and evil are concepts that are bound to arise in a spatial temporal realm with individuals. If we have any sort of decisions making/intention ability the good and the bad are bound to happen. You are a by product of some nasty things, same with me. And I guess its alright, life feeds on life, thats just the way it is. Humanity is one massive herd and yeah of course some of our repressed instincts can surface, and its sad that tyrants prey on easy prey.

If one takes your stance shouldn't we just be pissed off at God for giving us this reality anyway? Its his fault at the end of the day right?

:detectivescrotes:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: durian_2008]
    #10066117 - 03/29/09 12:46 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Actually, I have learned about neuropsychology, and I believe that sociopaths with 'subverted compasses' get off on what they do.




So your theory is that these people don't ACTUALLY have real problems, they're just pretending?


--------------------

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: andrewss]
    #10066140 - 03/29/09 12:49 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I'd say it's our fault, but nobody likes that answer.

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: Innoculus]
    #10066157 - 03/29/09 12:51 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Innoculus said:
I'd say it's our fault, but nobody likes that answer.




So things like a shrunken amygdala etc. are actually lies perpetrated by the evil medical establishment?


--------------------

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10066323 - 03/29/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

If one takes your stance shouldn't we just be pissed off at God for giving us this reality anyway? Its his fault at the end of the day right?



Great question.

The Bible says that God has laid out life and death before us and that we should choose life.

Also, the sin of man is said to have destroyed a perfect world.

At the end of the day, some would say that unhappiness is man's fault.

It could be blamed on Satan, who is supposed to tempt man to do wrong.

Remember, we were given free choice. God did not tell us to abuse it, but gave a us a roadmap, instead.

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Yes, I believe all the bad people we mentioned could have used that rule book.



Quote:

LSDreamer said:
You desperately need to learn some neuropsychology. And learn what a sociopath is. And an amygdala. And the impact that defects and injuries can have on a person. It is completely possible for a person to literally not have a moral compass. Which contradicts your idea that every person knows the difference between right and wrong and then chooses wrong.



Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Actually, I have learned about neuropsychology, and I believe that sociopaths with 'subverted compasses' get off on what they do.



Quote:

LSDreamer said:
So your theory is that these people don't ACTUALLY have real problems, they're just pretending?



No, I mean to say that all the sociopaths I've encountered are sadistic. They take pleasure in hurting others and are therefore conscious of the fact that they are doing it. That being the case, bad people do a have a moral compass, afterall. I just theorize that it's been calibrated incorrectly and I offer the Bible as a source of barings, when it is used carefully.

In the case of brain damage, I believe that a debilitated person may harm others unintentionally, but he should not gravitate toward sadistic behaviors if he is unconscious of others.

Remember, I said that the moral compass is the interpreter of our experience. You certainly wouldn't be taking life advice from the person with brain damage, would you?

So what if moral compromise takes place by emotional manipulation, or by accident? In either case, a morally subverted person can be taken advantage of, as a result of his weakness.

I have been telling you not to get taken advantage of.

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #10066606 - 03/29/09 01:40 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

Innoculus said:
I'd say it's our fault, but nobody likes that answer.




So things like a shrunken amygdala etc. are actually lies perpetrated by the evil medical establishment?




That's not really what I meant at all...

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OfflineCMACD
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: Innoculus]
    #10067675 - 03/29/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I'd kinda like to know what you meant, man. Or at least tell me what statement you were responding too (with "it's all our fault, but nobody likes that answer")


--------------------






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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: Super scientific atheistic skeptic = can't trip?? [Re: CMACD]
    #10068135 - 03/29/09 04:58 PM (15 years, 2 days ago)

I was actually responding to andrewss.  My post was in response to "If one takes your stance shouldn't we just be pissed off at God for giving us this reality anyway? Its his fault at the end of the day right?"

Sorry for any confusion.

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