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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Ferris]
    #8826089 - 08/25/08 05:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> and benevolent

Benevolent?  You have to be joking?  This is the douche that pushed the RAVE Act through by sticking in the Amber Alert Bill.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Seuss]
    #8826113 - 08/25/08 05:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Biden is not going to have any power as a VEEP, since he isn't going to be one.  I wonder if he'll pull a Lieberman and still run for re-election as a Senator at the same time.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP *DELETED* [Re: Seuss]
    #8826178 - 08/25/08 05:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Ferris

Reason for deletion: .



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Ferris]
    #8826233 - 08/25/08 05:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ah, a Biden apologist.  Sorry, but I don't buy it.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and the democrats certainly haven't prevented us from living in a fundamentalist christian state.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Seuss]
    #8826430 - 08/25/08 06:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I fucking hate Joe Biden.  I'm voting for Nader.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Seuss]
    #8828646 - 08/26/08 01:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Ah, a Biden apologist.  Sorry, but I don't buy it.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and the democrats certainly haven't prevented us from living in a fundamentalist christian state.



There's little they can do. Ferris is right; most people support the war on drugs, so candidates fight against it at their peril. The Christian Right (and other groups) are extremely powerful in the US, particularly at the Federal level. The most we can hope for is decriminalisation at the state level.

Drug legislation is not one of the issues at this election - the economy, fuel prices, immigration and Iraq are. If a candidate tried to make it an issue, his opponent will make sure he'd lose.

The fight to change the public's perception of drugs is a much bigger battle than this election, unfortunately.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Ferris]
    #8829247 - 08/26/08 05:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
The RAVE act has no effect on drugs that aren't listed as controlled substances, it simply enforces the law on those drugs already made illegal. 



The RAVE act so far has been used to shut down a NORML fundraiser and a Students for Sensible Drug Policy fundraiser.

Quote:

DEA Abuses Authority Under New Federal "RAVE Act" To Trample First Amendment
http://www.norml.com/index.cfm?Group_ID=5663




Quote:

"But from a policy perspective, it’s a disaster. Biden has sponsored more damaging drug war legislation than any Democrat in Congress. Hate the way federal prosecutors use RICO laws to take aim at drug offenders? Thank Biden. How about the abomination that is federal asset forfeiture laws? Thank Biden. Think federal prosecutors have too much power in drug cases? Thank Biden. Think the title of a “Drug Czar” is sanctimonious and silly? Thank Biden, who helped create the position (and still considers it an accomplishment worth boasting about). Tired of the ridiculous steroids hearings in Congress? Thank Biden, who led the effort to make steroids a Schedule 3 drug, and has been among the blowhardiest of the blowhards when it comes to sports and performance enhancing drugs. Biden voted in favor of using international development aid for drug control (think plan Columbia, plan Afghanistan, and other meddling anti-drug efforts that have only fostered loathing of America, backlash, and unintended consequences). Oh, and he was also the chief sponsor of 2004’s horrendous RAVE Act."
http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/23/biden/




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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Ferris]
    #8829326 - 08/26/08 06:15 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> and benevolent

Benevolent?  You have to be joking?  This is the douche that pushed the RAVE Act through by sticking in the Amber Alert Bill.




The RAVE act has no effect on drugs that aren't listed as controlled substances, it simply enforces the law on those drugs already made illegal.  Don't get me wrong, I still totally disagree with it, but if you're calling him malevolent because he enforces drug law, then you are asking him to go against the will of the people.  The solution to ending the war on drugs is to end public support, not to have unrealistic expectations of politicians.

(attaching an ammendment to a surefire bill of that sort is standard practice unfortunately.  If democrats didn't do it, we'd be living in a fundamentalist christian state by now).





It does not simply enforce the law as to drugs.

Commiting a drug crime is a criminal offense, and hence there is a mens rea element that can provide aquital for those not having the guilty intent, proved beyond a reasonable doubt.  Additionally, their are statutory mens rea elements of the common drug crimes.


The rave act allowed civil penalties for people who in some way facilitate an event where drugs are used.  While their are knowing elements, these are only to be proven by a preponderance of the evidence, and not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Thus a jury could conclude that someone who has a "chill room" in a club is knowing that a quieter more relaxed room could only be enjoyed or intended for drug users, and not people tired of dancing and sick of loud music, and asses civil penalties.


The difference is that the knowing element is only proved by a most likely standard, with things such as chill rooms and glow sticks being mentioned as things promoters sell for drug use in the findings of the law, and not beyond a reasonable doubt.  And since their is no requirement that the promoter/owner use drugs himself or have anything to do with drugs, just knowing that they will be used is enough (say good bye to schools), the civil penalties are unfair and stifle property rights.


You see a law that requires a low civil standard against someone who knows that drug users will be at his event, and even, gasp, sells glowsticks, and enforces such with draconian penalties, to be just enforcing the drug laws?

Enforcing the drug laws would be arresting drug users/dealers, not arresting/sueing people who knowing rent to people who know will be using drugs in some percentage.

While teh actual text of the law seems to have reassuring safeguards, the fact that glowsticks are cited, idiotic, as well as chillrooms, makes me really dislike the law (those the citations are in the law they are not enforcable at least).

Could someone be sued for providing a place with knowledge that drug use would be present?  It would seem by understanding such he would intend that the place be used by everyone who is likely to come, and if he knows those are drug users, surely he intends to make the place available for drug users, even if that is not the overriding purpose?


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: johnm214]
    #8829398 - 08/26/08 07:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I was already considering the first ammendment implications, but if what chemy says is true, the situation is clearly worse than I thought.

Still mostly irrelevant to the election though.  The veep candidate patches the holes to one of the most liberal pres candidates that we have ever seen.  Hopefully this is a step to even more liberal people in the future.

Let's hope Obama gets elected and some conservative judges die (with as much respect as I can hold towards them).  He WILL be appointing judges that would shoot down laws like the rave act, or at the very least be limiting them.  It would help if we keep the majority in the house and senate to ease the confirmations.  The larger the better.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Seuss]
    #8829403 - 08/26/08 07:15 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

And people wonder why Obama didn't go with Hillary as his running mate.  :wink:




Um yeah.  But no worries.  McCain will win this one hands down thanks to racism in America and in the old cunts, er, racist, sexist bitches in the Democrat party.

I am more ashamed to be a Democrat now than I have ever been (and that's saying something).

So ladies, when do we bring out the Hillary 2012 signs?

Hillary?  2012?

That's unsettling but mildly prophetic.



I hate Hillary but she might have been a better choice than Biden.  That way, if Barack survived her vice-presidency, we could be assured she'd never be president.  I consider her a greater threat to the United States than Muslim terrorists.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8829427 - 08/26/08 07:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> McCain will win this one hands down thanks to racism in America
I think Obama has a better chance than you think; polls show that race doesn't affect voters all that much. At least he's not an athiest. Then he'd have no chance.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: zouden]
    #8829457 - 08/26/08 07:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
> McCain will win this one hands down thanks to racism in America






and so it begins.....



who are the racists? Democrats? Independents?


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8829471 - 08/26/08 07:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:

  McCain will win this one hands down thanks to racism in America and in the old cunts, er, racist, sexist bitches in the Democrat party.








at least u blame some of it on the Democrats... :handth:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: zouden]
    #8829528 - 08/26/08 08:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Ah, a Biden apologist.  Sorry, but I don't buy it.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and the democrats certainly haven't prevented us from living in a fundamentalist christian state.




There's little they can do. Ferris is right; most people support the war on drugs, so candidates fight against it at their peril. The Christian Right (and other groups) are extremely powerful in the US, particularly at the Federal level.




Doesn't Biden have a duty to uphold the rights proclaimed in the Constitution as well as those natural rights endowed upon us merely by being born? It does not matter what the masses believe, it matters what is not an invasion of my rights

James Madison said in Federalist 10:
Quote:

When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens.  To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed. Let me add that it is the great desideratum by which this form of government can be rescued from the opprobrium under which it has so long labored, and be recommended to the esteem and adoption of mankind...

By what means is this object attainable? Evidently by one of two only. Either the existence of the same passion or interest in a majority at the same time must be prevented, or the majority, having such coexistent passion or interest, must be rendered, by their number and local situation, unable to concert and carry into effect schemes of oppression.




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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8829973 - 08/26/08 10:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:

  McCain will win this one hands down thanks to racism in America and in the old cunts, er, racist, sexist bitches in the Democrat party.






and please send the old cunts, er, racist, sexist bitches to the GOP.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8830423 - 08/26/08 12:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> It does not matter what the masses believe, it matters what is not an invasion of my rights

With you 100% on this one.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama picks Biden as VP [Re: Redstorm]
    #8831308 - 08/26/08 04:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
It does not matter what the masses believe, it matters what is not an invasion of my rights



Absolutely, but in practise, "what the masses believe" is extremely important. One of the downsides of democracy.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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