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Minstrel
Man of Science



Registered: 03/15/05
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So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7
#8810916 - 08/22/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html
Their analysis from a few years ago didn't seem adequate enough for people not to get funny ideas in their heads and do unpatriotic things like ask questions, so they decided to come up with a new one.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8810974 - 08/22/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Cool, glad it is finally settled. Also glad they sought expert advice...
Quote:
NIST complemented its in-house expertise with private-sector technical experts
Done and done. Next conspiracy.
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Groomies
Ghost



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8810996 - 08/22/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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so from what i understand from that video. if a fire starts in a building and the sprinklers fail to work then the whole thing is coming down. wow its so clear to me now. its the sprinklers that brought down the WTC's. DAMN THOSE SHITTY SPRINKLERS!
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
#8810999 - 08/22/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
not to get funny ideas in their heads and do unpatriotic things like ask questions
That is an irrelevant appeal to emotion.
Nobody ever said questioning anything is unpatriotic, ever. Americans are constantly encouraged to question things. I dont know where you people get these ideas... Ive been encouraged to question things my entire life. Thats why Im patriotic, because the government allows and encourages me to question things... even the government itself.
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
#8811266 - 08/22/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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That was a joke, not an argument, my appologies .
Edited by Minstrel (08/22/08 01:29 PM)
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8811310 - 08/22/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm going to start a business: A demolition company.
Other demolition companies will do it the old-fashioned way. They bring down their tall buildings with lots of expensive time and work, with RDX and shaped charges, but my demolition company will do it at much less cost.
Here's how we'll do it: Fire. We'll start a few fires around the building, and induce the same thermal effects as what occurred in WTC7. Now that NIST has provided us with this never-before-seen mechanism of collapse, it will only be a matter of time before it's perfected, to be used commercially! I predict huge success.
No expensive man-power, no explosives, just fire. Building comes down, just as good as controlled demolition. You won't be able to tell the difference.
Edited by Minstrel (08/22/08 01:40 PM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8811691 - 08/22/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> You won't be able to tell the difference. 
As long as you ignore the damage to other buildings in the area.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8812020 - 08/22/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I dont believe every conspiracy theory but this one is different b/c there's evidence supporting both claims,the government's and a lot of the civilian population's. Time has shown me that in life, the coincidences, ideas, and people that are deemed "crazy" are usually the truth.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Jack Albertson]
#8812056 - 08/22/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Time has shown me that in life, the coincidences, ideas, and people that are deemed "crazy" are usually the truth.
Usually? Please, that is certainly not true. Millions of crazy people in history were in fact crazy. Very few people who were deemed crazy have ever been shown to be truthful.
Also, there is not evidence that supports both sides. There is conjecture and fear of the government on one side, and conjecture and evidence on the other.
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
#8812103 - 08/22/08 04:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here is a good letter. Call it 'conspiracy theory' if you want, even if it is peer reviewed, just don't argue that you lose anything by taking the time to read it:
Open Civil Engineering Journal: Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction
Abstract: Reports by FEMA and NIST lay out the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001. In this Letter, we wish to set a foundation for productive discussion and understanding by focusing on those areas where we find common ground with FEMA and NIST, while at the same time countering several popular myths about the WTC collapses.
I found NIST's rational for not investigating for explosives rather silly:
Quote:
14. Search for Explosive or Thermite Residues From a NIST FAQ: [Question: ] “Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter." [Answer: ] NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel” [3].
We agree; there is no evidence that NIST tested for residues of thermite or explosives. This is another remarkable admission. Probing for residues from pyrotechnic materials including thermite in particular, is specified in fire and explosion investigations by the NFPA 921 code: Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials [26].
Traces of thermite in residues (solidified slag, dust, etc.) would tell us a great deal about the crime and the cause of thousands of injuries and deaths. This is standard procedure for fire and explosion investigations. Perhaps NIST will explain why they have not looked for these residues? The code specifies that fire-scene investigators must be prepared to justify an exclusion [26].
NIST has been asked about this important issue recently, by investigative reporter Jennifer Abel:
Abel: "..what about that letter where NIST said it didn't look for evidence of explosives?” Neuman [spokesperson at NIST, listed on the WTC report]: "Right, because there was no evidence of that." Abel: But how can you know there's no evidence if you don't look for it first? Neuman: "If you're looking for something that isn't there, you're wasting your time... and the taxpayers’ money.” [27].
Edited by Minstrel (08/22/08 05:10 PM)
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8812958 - 08/22/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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So they publishing a report where they actually argree with the government is somehow proof of a conspiracy?
The reason that they didn't test for thermite is because the wholeidea is stupid. Steven Jones just made the whole thing up. There is a reason that his thermite hypothesis will not show up in any kind of peer reviewed publication - real scientists know that it makes no sense.
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
#8813240 - 08/22/08 09:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Time has shown me that in life, the coincidences, ideas, and people that are deemed "crazy" are usually the truth.
Usually? Please, that is certainly not true. Millions of crazy people in history were in fact crazy. Very few people who were deemed crazy have ever been shown to be truthful.
Also, there is not evidence that supports both sides. There is conjecture and fear of the government on one side, and conjecture and evidence on the other.
So that fact that you say so makes you right? You seriously need to stop trying to make your arguments one sided. I think you just disagree for the sake of argument.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8813793 - 08/22/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dtugg said: So they publishing a report where they actually argree with the government is somehow proof of a conspiracy? The reason that they didn't test for thermite is because the wholeidea is stupid. Steven Jones just made the whole thing up. There is a reason that his thermite hypothesis will not show up in any kind of peer reviewed publication - real scientists know that it makes no sense.
'Stupid' is your own personal perception of the hypothesis; it is not a sound basis for an argument (at least its not going to be of much consequence to anyone). Once again (especially now that you are in Sci and Tech) I'd ask to to please provide your evidence to support your claim that S. Jones 'made the whole thing up', I'm really eager to know the details. Btw, the letter I presented was from a mainstream civil engineering journal; a peer reviewed publication. Given your first question, I would really like to ask if you read any of it beyond the title and abstract?
So far all you've done is foam at the mouth and resort to ad hominems, some ad populum, and most notoriously in the Pol thread, before Phred was wise enough to close it, ad baculum (nuts like me need to be put down).
Edited by Minstrel (08/23/08 12:16 AM)
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dtugg
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8813881 - 08/23/08 12:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have read his stupid paper. It is very clear that he made the whole thing up. He started with the idea that the the towers were brought down with a controlled demo. Since there were no extremely louds sounds associated with a regular one, he had to think of some way that it might have been done more or less silently. Ah thermite! Maybe that could do it. He makes no effort to prove that this could have been done, or show exactly how it would have been done. By this, I mean saying approximately how much thermite would be needed and where it would have been placed (without anybody noticing, esecially important because they would have had expose the columns and place it directly on them). The only "evidence" that he cites is that certain elements that were found in some dust were the same as would be found in a thermite reaction. Of course, he totally ignores the fact that all of these elements would have been there anyway. This is not real science and anybody with a brain can see that.
The letter that you presented does not really go into his thermite theory, that is why it was able to pe published in a real journal. Don't you wonder why the paper that outlines his thermite BS was only published in the same journal where he is a founder and editor?
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8813935 - 08/23/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Once again, you have to start out by needing to qualify something as 'stupid', and saying it's simply 'very clear he made the whole thing up', and proceed to give an explanation of his work as perceived simply by YOU. Sorry, I'm still waiting.
Have a good night.
Edited by Minstrel (08/23/08 12:32 AM)
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KarenTandy
scientist


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*
Edited by KarenTandy (08/13/09 08:09 PM)
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8814245 - 08/23/08 02:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said: Once again, you have to start out by needing to qualify something as 'stupid', and saying it's simply 'very clear he made the whole thing up', and proceed to give an explanation of his work as perceived simply by YOU. Sorry, I'm still waiting.
Have a good night.
Honestly, I really don't care enough to go read through that crap again to find any specific examples and I am sure that you wouldn't change your mind even if I did. You want so badly for it to be an inside job that you will not listen to reason.
One point, I will make without looking at it again, is why the hell didn't he at least show it was possible for thermite to cut through large steel beams "like a hot knife through butter?" All he would have to do is get a steel beam like was used in the WTC and some thermite and try it out. Since he used to be a professor at a large university (before being forcing into retirement because his lack of professionalism), I am sure that he could have arranged it if he wanted to. If he did this, I would at least give him some credit. BTW, some truther tried this at Burning Man and failed miserably.
I'll leave the argument at this:
Why is it, do think that Jones has failed to get his thermite work published in any scientific or engineering publications? No, the one where is an editor doesn't count. Is it because they all being paid off or intimidated by the vast conspiracy so the public won't see the thermite truth? Or is it because there is nothing scientific about his work at all?
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8814271 - 08/23/08 02:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Actually, I think that another deranged truther, Judy Wood*, might be onto something. Did the NIST test ground zero for signs that the towers were brought down using a directed energy beam from space? If not, I think this is evidence a Star Wars weapon is really what brought down the towers and the NIST is covering it up.
*Most people have probably never heard of Judy Wood. She is a batshit crazy woman who really believes that the US government demolished the twin towers by using some sort of super secret directed energy weapon from space. A lot of truthers dismiss her as a disinfo agent planted to make their movement look stupid, but she really is that far gone. The sad thing is that she has several degrees in relevent fields including a PhD in Materials Engineering Science. Surprisingly, Clemson University, where she used to teach, declined to continue her employment after she started telling people about her theories.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8814336 - 08/23/08 04:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> Did the NIST test ground zero for signs that the towers were brought down using a directed energy beam from space?
Didn't some highly decorated physics professor from BYU find residual traces of high energy photons lingering about in the rubble? With residual traces of high energy photons laying around, there can be no question. Aliens created crop circles, just before the attacks, to allow the US government to redirect the output from the HARM device, located on the dark side of the moon, directly at the towers. In return, the aliens were given all of the people from the planes to use in experiments. The planes were filled with dead opossum remains and slaughterhouse leftovers before being crashed. (sarcasm for the impaired)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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magicbastard



Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 791
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8814411 - 08/23/08 05:43 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The fall of the 47-story World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) in New York City late in the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, was primarily due to fires
Quote:
“Video and photographic evidence combined with detailed computer simulations show that neither explosives nor fuel oil fires played a role in the collapse of WTC 7,”
So...if I read that right...the plane crashes didn't start the fires...that means terrorists must have ran into the towers after crashing the planes and started fires, so the planes were just a decoy to distract everybody from them starting fires, simple as that.
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: magicbastard]
#8814418 - 08/23/08 05:57 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
magicbastard said:
Quote:
The fall of the 47-story World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) in New York City late in the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, was primarily due to fires
Quote:
“Video and photographic evidence combined with detailed computer simulations show that neither explosives nor fuel oil fires played a role in the collapse of WTC 7,”
So...if I read that right...the plane crashes didn't start the fires...that means terrorists must have ran into the towers after crashing the planes and started fires, so the planes were just a decoy to distract everybody from them starting fires, simple as that.
It is very clear that you haven't even bothered to try to understand what they are saying.
The fires in WTC7 were caused by debris from WTC1 hitting it when it collapsed. They unambiguously state this.
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8814519 - 08/23/08 06:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dtugg said: Actually, I think that another deranged truther, Judy Wood*, might be onto something. Did the NIST test ground zero for signs that the towers were brought down using a directed energy beam from space? If not, I think this is evidence a Star Wars weapon is really what brought down the towers and the NIST is covering it up.
*Most people have probably never heard of Judy Wood. She is a batshit crazy woman who really believes that the US government demolished the twin towers by using some sort of super secret directed energy weapon from space. A lot of truthers dismiss her as a disinfo agent planted to make their movement look stupid, but she really is that far gone. The sad thing is that she has several degrees in relevent fields including a PhD in Materials Engineering Science. Surprisingly, Clemson University, where she used to teach, declined to continue her employment after she started telling people about her theories.
Your bringing up of Judy Wood's wild ideas betrays your purpose here. She is a data falsifier, and a no planer.
Here is some relevant literature, which it would have been prudent for you to post:
Judy Wood's own website: http://www.drjudywood.com/
A critique of her space-beam weapons theory: Scientific Critique of Judy Wood’s Paper “The Star Wars Beam Weapon”
A critique of her request for revision to NIST: A Brief Analysis of Dr. Judy Wood’s Request for Correction to NIST: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Did you honestly think you can garner credibility by (even mockingly) citing someone who endorses the quackery of the hutchinson effect? I really don't understand why you brought this up out of no-where. It represents poor judgment on your part. A pitiful straw-man.
Edited by Minstrel (08/23/08 07:35 AM)
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Rayn
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815122 - 08/23/08 10:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I would say it's more than a little coincidental that in one day 3 steel framed buildings collapsed from fire for the first time in known history.
--------------------
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815207 - 08/23/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Of course I know that Wood is full of shit, I made that very clear in my post so it's not like I tried to mislead people. That was my point. Just because someone has a doctorate doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Are you one of the people that says she is disinfo, or you acknowledge that she is just crazy?
Jones has just as much science and evidence backing his theory up as she does: None. He just comes off as likable and not so crazy. The fact that other thruthers criticize her and not Jones mean little to me. Actually, I think it is hilarious how much in fighting is going on in the "truth" movement. They will never accomplish anything for sure except for make a little money peddling their crap to gullible people.
I am waiting for you to come up with a reason as to why Jones hasn't been able to publish his thermite paper anywhere except the publication where he is an owner and editor.
Edited by dtugg (08/23/08 11:15 AM)
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Rayn]
#8815306 - 08/23/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rayn said: I would say it's more than a little coincidental that in one day 3 steel framed buildings collapsed from fire for the first time in known history.
Actually, the first two didn't collapse just because of fires. They fell because fucking big ass planes also crashed into them severly damaging their structure. Fire played a big role too, but both were needed for the collapse. Do you know what NIST says the mechanism for collapse initiation was? It's slightly more complicated thats planes>fire>collapse and is supported by a great deal of evidence.
Edited by dtugg (08/23/08 11:38 AM)
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8815377 - 08/23/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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>Of course I know that Wood is full of shit, I made that very clear in my post so it's not like I tried to mislead people. That was my point. Just because someone has a doctorate doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Are you one of the people that says she is disinfo, or you acknowledge that she is just crazy?
Labeling anyone as such isn't a way to facilitate any objective appraisal of information. Rather, it undermines it.
I'm still waiting for you to provide proof Dr. Jones is lying about anything.
So far you've done is just yammer on and on and give your own opinions and emotions. I'm not interested in your opinions and feelings. Back up your claims. I'm eagerly awaiting.
Edited by Minstrel (08/23/08 12:01 PM)
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dtugg
Druggie



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815465 - 08/23/08 12:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said: I'm still waiting for you to provide proof S. Jones is lying about....anything?
So far you just yammer on and on and give your own opinion. I'm not interested in your opinion. Back up your claims.
Nice dodge.
1) He is lying when he says therm?te can cut through huge steel beams. I don't need to back anything up here for Jones to be a liar, he has to back it up for him not to be a liar. Unless he can come up with some sort of proof that this can be done, he is a liar who made the whole thing up. I don't expect he'll ever try this out because he would likely just further expose to the whole world what a fraud he has been for the past three years.
2) He is lying when he says some reside found near ground zero is proof that there was therm?te using in the destruction in the towers. The same elements that one would find in a therm?te reaction would be expected to be found there anyway. Look it up. I am sure he knows this but totally ignoring it makes him a liar and a fraud.
None of this is my opinion. It is fact. He hasn't proven that therm?te can easily cut through large steel beams. Finding residue somewhat consistent with a therm?te reaction is not proof at all that therm?te brought down the towers. Therefore, he is a liar and a fraud. There is plenty more, but I really don't want to read his paper again to find specific examples, I already gave enough to show him as a liar without having to read that drivel again.
Now, please tell me why Dr. Jones can't get his therm?te paper published anywhere except in a journal that he owns and edits.
Edited by dtugg (08/23/08 12:16 PM)
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Minstrel
Man of Science



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815627 - 08/23/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't tell me to look anything up. You look it up and bring it here. You need to support the claims, not me.
Jones not having all the answers, and admitting he doesn't have all the answers makes him a liar? How so? Newton couldn't explain how gravity had action at a distance, but was still able to quantify it's effect. Does this make Newton a liar and a fraud?
You also expect scientists to provide 'absolute proof'. Such an idea is ridiculous. They can only support conclusions from evidence. Extremely high temperatures (NIST admits are well in excess of what a normal fire can reach), tiny iron spheres, and elements contained therein having their respective ratios to be consistent with thermite, and high temperature oxidation/sulfidation is the evidence thermite was used, determined by XDS and microscopy. NIST even admits the presence of many of these anomalies themselves, and makes no attempt to determine the source.
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dtugg
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815721 - 08/23/08 01:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I really hope you're not trying to compare Jones to Newton. The idea is laughable.
Look this is simple, if you are going to make the claim thermite can cut through large steel beams and that's how they brought down the towers, you need to at least show that thermite can in fact cut through steel beams. This is something that can be done with simple experimentation. Jones has made no effort to do that (although another truther did and failed horribly), ergo he made the whole thing up.
Of course there were anomalies. These were amazingly complex events, and it would be impossible for them to explain exactly what happened with everything. That doesn't mean that thermite brought the buildings down. Jones doesn't even attempt to find other, more rational explanations. And he hasn't even released his samples to other scientists so they can study for them either. He is a fraud.
Yeah there were fires hotter than normal ones in the rubble. But normal fires also don't have millions of tons of debris on top of them. It's pretty simple, it acted sort of like a blast furnace. NIST doesn't really go into it because that was outside their mandate. Their job was to find out how the buildings collapsed and what could be done in the future to prevent it. What was going on in the rubble after the fact has nothing to do with that.
It's not like these high temperatures even support some kind of controlled demolition/thermite theory anyway. Have you ever heard of a controlled demo that left extremely high temperatures weeks later? Thermite that is still burning weeks after it's been ignited? I would love for somebody to explain exactly how controlled demo/thermite could have caused these anomalies. But no truther ever will because they can't support that idea with anything.
I will keep asking this:
Why has Jones failed to get his thermite work published anywhere except for a journal where he is an editor?
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LightShedder
Trading currencies



Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 3,026
Loc: AustinDenverLA
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8815735 - 08/23/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The movie Loose Change is good. That's all I'm gonna say.
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Minstrel
Man of Science



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815741 - 08/23/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm done. It's like talking to a brick. You don't cite anything to support your claims.
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: LightShedder]
#8815751 - 08/23/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
LightShedder said: The movie Loose Change is good. That's all I'm gonna say.
I hope you are fucking kidding me. That has got to be the worst "documentary" that I have ever seen. Dylan Avery started out as making it fictional and admits so himself. If I ever see that douchebag, I am going to punch him in the face for lying to so many people.
If you are serious, here are a couple of debunkings of it:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/ http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
Fun Fact: Jason Bermas, one of the Loose Change idiots, said on camera that the fire fighers were paid off.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815758 - 08/23/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Citing claims is pretty pointless at this point, because the same things have been cited again and again and again. You know where to read the peer reviewed articles mainstream publications that show one side, and the non peer reviewed articles and alternative media that show the other side.
To me the things he is saying make common sense, so I dont really need a citation. Its a laughable 'debate', like debating evolution or brown gas.
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8815767 - 08/23/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said: I'm done. It's like talking to a brick. You don't cite anything to support your claims.
I did support my claims. You just don't want to hear it. Jones doesn't even attempt to prove that thermite can cut through huge steel beems, so he made the whole thing up and is a liar. It's not like I have to find some way to prove that it can't happen. The burden of proof is on him. Maybe that's why he can't get published.
It's cool, you lost and cannot support any kind of conspiracy with any facts. Peace.
Edited by dtugg (08/23/08 01:42 PM)
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cb_brooklyn
Stranger

Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 18
Loc: New York City
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: magicbastard]
#8817389 - 08/23/08 07:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Lenin, the first Communist dictator after the takeover of Russia in 1917, is widely credited with the following quotation, "The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves."
WTC 7 is a red herring designed to distract us from exotic weaponry usage on 9/11.
WHY ELSE would Larry Silverstein tell PBS they "pulled it"?
WHY ELSE would PBS air Silverstein's "pull it" statement?
Exotic weaponry was used on 9/11:
Check out Hurricane Erin near NYC on 9/11! http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/CB_Brooklyn/TM-FES-GEA/010911_wtc_terra1_cbc.jpg
See Dr Wood's new paper for info on Erin and learn of it's relation to the 9/11 events: http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/erin/
Hutchison Effect-like technology was used on 9/11. The pictorial comparisons make this more than obvious! http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/JJ/
Magnetometer data from alaska.edu shows the earth's magnetic field shifted with every 9/11 "event". This includes the plane-shaped holes appearing in the towers. The World Trade Center was destroyed with directed energy weapons. See this analysis by former Clemson University Professor of Mechanical Engineering Dr Judy Wood for info on the magnetometer data: http://drjudywood.com/articles/erin/erin5.html
Why were there shifts in the earth's magnetic field when the plane shaped holes appeared???
Answer: because those holes were created with directed energy weapons. There were NO plane crashes at the WTC; if there were, there would have been reports of permanent hearing damage when a wide-body commercial airliner hit the towers at full throttle at 600 ft. Instead, people reported hearing "nothing".
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8817801 - 08/23/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dude, I hope you're not serious.
The Silverstien "pull it" quotes are hugely debunked. http://debunking911.com/pull.htm .
He meant to pull firefighters from WTC7. As if he would admit the conspiracy to the enitre world on TV. "Pull it" is firefighter terminology. The only way it is used in demolition is when buildings are manually pulled down by attaching cables to columns and pulling them. WTC7 was very large and it wouldn't have been possible that.
Judy Wood? LOL! Bitch is crazy as hell and I can't believe anybody listens to her. Read criticism of her Minstrel provided earlier by other truthers earlier. For real, that shit is fucking stupid as hell.
Edited by dtugg (08/23/08 09:07 PM)
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RuNE
bomberman



Registered: 09/23/00
Posts: 2,331
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8817951 - 08/23/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Who cares if 'we' did it or not.
But it's pretty neat and convenient how it ended with us having a central base in the middle east! 
-------------------- ~Happy sailing~
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cb_brooklyn
Stranger

Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 18
Loc: New York City
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8818217 - 08/23/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dtugg said: Dude, I hope you're not serious.
The Silverstien "pull it" quotes are hugely debunked. http://debunking911.com/pull.htm .
He meant to pull firefighters from WTC7. As if he would admit the conspiracy to the enitre world on TV. "Pull it" is firefighter terminology. The only way it is used in demolition is when buildings are manually pulled down by attaching cables to columns and pulling them. WTC7 was very large and it wouldn't have been possible that.
Judy Wood? LOL! Bitch is crazy as hell and I can't believe anybody listens to her. Read criticism of her Minstrel provided earlier by other truthers earlier. For real, that shit is fucking stupid as hell.
You completely misunderstand my point about WTC 7
The point is: WTC 7 DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE IT IS A RED HERRING.
Calling Dr Wood names only proves yourself ignorant on the facts. Try debating the evidence, if you have the balls.
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: magicbastard]
#8818485 - 08/24/08 12:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just shows you. You'll never know what the fucking truth is...or you may you'll just never hear it from our government.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Esophagus]
#8818825 - 08/24/08 03:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you also a believer of the no plane/tv fakery BS?
"Debating" with someone that believes energy beams from space destroyed the WTC is pointless because it is glaringly obvious that you know nothing about science and are probably as crazy as Wood. I'm not going to go to her website and read her crazy rantings because it as Maddox would say, it's like being bukakked with stupid. It's not that I don't have "the balls" it is just that the whole thing is so stupid. People like you are a case study that people will believe anything.
Anybody lurkers interested, watch this interview with Wood and decide for yourself whether she is sane and whether her rantings are based on science.
Do you also believe in David Icke's reptilians. If not read one of his books, I'm sure he will convince you. There is probably more "evidence" for his theories that Woods'.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: cb_brooklyn]
#8818873 - 08/24/08 04:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> Magnetometer data from alaska.edu shows the earth's magnetic field shifted with every 9/11 "event".
Don't forget about the crop circles. The use the crop circles to direct the energy from the HARM device located on the dark side of the moon. By triangulating the crop circles, you can see what their target was, though you have to be quick. The tend to burn the crop circles with radiation to hide the evidence, and make it look like an alien craft landed instead.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8819034 - 08/24/08 06:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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LOL,
Thats embarrassing. One of the most important buildings in America and it can't even withstand a bit of fire without collapsing. 
Still sounds dodgy to me though.
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Ego Death]
#8819101 - 08/24/08 07:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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How exactly was WTC7 one of the most important buildings in America? I sure as hell had never heard of it before 9/11.
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8819568 - 08/24/08 10:41 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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same with the pentagon. It's one of the most highly guarded buildings in the world. It has more surveillance cameras then any other building in America that I know of. Yet nothing came out to back up the claims of what exactly hit it. The FBI and Representatives were the first on the scene to cover up any small debree. If a 747 really hit that fucking building than how in the hell did they pick up all the debree in less then a couple of hours...then covered up all the forensic evidence with rock and gravel? Then has nothing to show for it afterwords. No tapes because they're top secret? O and the hole was the size of a small missile.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
Loc: SOLARIS
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Esophagus]
#8819843 - 08/24/08 12:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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this thread is sickening.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8820024 - 08/24/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Esophagus said: same with the pentagon. It's one of the most highly guarded buildings in the world. It has more surveillance cameras then any other building in America that I know of. Yet nothing came out to back up the claims of what exactly hit it. The FBI and Representatives were the first on the scene to cover up any small debree. If a 747 really hit that fucking building than how in the hell did they pick up all the debree in less then a couple of hours...then covered up all the forensic evidence with rock and gravel? Then has nothing to show for it afterwords. No tapes because they're top secret? O and the hole was the size of a small missile.
Seven years later and people are still spewing this same crap that has been debunking over and over again. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
1) You have no idea whether there were cameras at the Pentagon capable of capturing a clear image of the plane going into it. Just because you think there should have been, doesn't mean there were. This is called and argument from incredulity and is a logical fallacy. Unless you can show that there were cameras pointing at the right angle, with sufficient resolution, and actually recording (and at a good enough frame rate), your argument means nothing.
2) American Flight 77 was definitely hijacked. People called their loved ones and told them this. One was Barbara Olsen, the wife of the Solicitor General. Are you one of those people that thinks the calls were faked? What happened to the plane if it didn't go into the Pentagon?
3) A lot of people saw the plane flying into the Pentagon. One I recall off the top off my head was a pilot who reported to CNN that same day that he definitely saw an American Airlines 757 fly into the building. Remember, it flew over a busy highway and would be hard to miss. Nobody saw a missile. And don't dare bring up the "it was like a cruise missile with wings" quote. It was taken entirely out of context, the same guy said right before that it was an American Airlines jet but of course conspiracy theorists don't include that part. I can find video to prove it if you don't believe me.
4) Remains from the scene were positively ID'd to all but one person that was on AA77.
5) I've never seen evidence that the debris was all picked up in a couple of hours, although if it was it doens't really matter. They also didn't cover up any debris with gravel. They did put gravel there after debris in its path was picked up to build a road for brand new dumptrucks to put the debris in because the grass in the area was too soft. Also, of course the FBI was involved in collecting the debris. It was, after all a federal crime scene.
There is plenty more debunking all this crap but I don't really feel like typing anymore. Please refer to these websites for further debunking:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Pentagon http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6 http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon.html http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary
If you can read the evidence there and still believe a missile or whatever hit the Pentagon, you sir are an idiot.
Edited by dtugg (08/24/08 01:43 PM)
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Jack Albertson]
#8820038 - 08/24/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jack Albertson said: this thread is sickening.
I agree. It is very sickening that some people would rather blame to some imaginary government conspiracy from who was really responsible.
Edited by dtugg (08/24/08 01:01 PM)
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8820127 - 08/24/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Honestly, Thank You. I am an idiot and I am going off by what the zeitgeist movie is saying and other 'youtube' videos.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
Loc: SOLARIS
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8820288 - 08/24/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dtugg said:
Quote:
Jack Albertson said: this thread is sickening.
I agree. It is very sickening that some people would rather blame to some imaginary government conspiracy from who was really responsible.
Please. Spare me your nonsense.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Esophagus]
#8820330 - 08/24/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Esophagus said: Honestly, Thank You. I am an idiot and I am going off by what the zeitgeist movie is saying and other 'youtube' videos.
No problem at all. That is why I bothered to post my reply. Since you were able to see the error of your ways given evidence, you are not an idiot. It just means you were a little bit gullible. I must admit, I was the same way when I first saw these videos until I did real research. That is probably why I am so passionate about my hatred of 9/11 liars (Dylan Avery, et. al.).
I hope you learned your lesson; that you cannot trust everything you see/read on the internet.
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LightShedder
Trading currencies



Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 3,026
Loc: AustinDenverLA
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Jack Albertson]
#8820357 - 08/24/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dtugg you have a very strong way of starting out ur posts to automatically start making ur opposer look bad such as.... (dtuggs first sentences in this thread)
1.Seven years later and people are still spewing this same crap that has been debunking over and over again. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
2.I have read his stupid paper.
3.Honestly, I really don't care enough to go read through that crap again to find any specific examples and I am sure that you wouldn't change your mind even if I did.
4.Actually, I think that another deranged truther, Judy Wood*, might be onto something.
5.It is very clear that you haven't even bothered to try to understand what they are saying.
6.Of course I know that Wood is full of shit, I made that very clear in my post so it's not like I tried to mislead people. That was my point.
7.Nice dodge.
8.I really hope you're not trying to compare Jones to Newton. The idea is laughable.
9.I hope you are fucking kidding me. That has got to be the worst "documentary" that I have ever seen.
10.Dude, I hope you're not serious.
11.Are you also a believer of the no plane/tv fakery BS?
And all your mainly doing is saying..."dude all of the people you are talking about were paid off ANYBODY WITH HALF A FUCKING BRAIN KNOWS THAT!!!" Which is not very convincing. I mean couldn't your references have just as easily been paid off. Or especially the U.S. Government (which is who you are defending) could easily pull this thing off and then pay/kill or whatever anybody to manipulate what people like us hear so I mean I'm not totally outright disagreeing with you I'm just saying that you haven't given anybody solid proof. Unfortunately when it comes to topics like these, it's hard to take anything as solid evidence.
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Jack Albertson]
#8820387 - 08/24/08 02:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jack Albertson said:
Quote:
dtugg said:
Quote:
Jack Albertson said: this thread is sickening.
I agree. It is very sickening that some people would rather blame to some imaginary government conspiracy from who was really responsible.
Please. Spare me your nonsense.
I speak no nonsense at all. There is no evidence for a government conspiracy (if there is please present it because I haven't heard it). There is mountains of evidence it was Islamic terrorists (including the mastermind confessing to Al Jazeera before he was captured). Therefore, conspiracy theorists wish to shift blame to a US government conspiracy for which there is no evidence, from an Islamic Jihad conspiracy for which there is a lot of evidence. This makes them (the 9/11 deniers) pieces of shit, if you ask me.
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LightShedder
Trading currencies



Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 3,026
Loc: AustinDenverLA
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8820393 - 08/24/08 02:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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wow chill out dude
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: LightShedder]
#8820449 - 08/24/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I speak no nonsense at all. There is no evidence for a government conspiracy (if there is please present it because I haven't heard it). There is mountains of evidence it was Islamic terrorists (including the mastermind confessing to Al Jazeera before he was captured). Therefore, conspiracy theorists wish to shift blame to a US government conspiracy for which there is no evidence, from an Islamic Jihad conspiracy for which there is a lot of evidence. This makes them (the 9/11 deniers) pieces of shit, if you ask me.
Wait what? Evidence? Of course they're is not going to be evidence. hat's why it's a conspiracy.
Quote:
There is mountains of evidence it was Islamic terrorists (including the mastermind confessing to Al Jazeera before he was captured).
Go figure.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
#8820488 - 08/24/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
LightShedder said:
And all your mainly doing is saying..."dude all of the people you are talking about were paid off ANYBODY WITH HALF A FUCKING BRAIN KNOWS THAT!!!" Which is not very convincing. I mean couldn't your references have just as easily been paid off. Or especially the U.S. Government (which is who you are defending) could easily pull this thing off and then pay/kill or whatever anybody to manipulate what people like us hear so I mean I'm not totally outright disagreeing with you I'm just saying that you haven't given anybody solid proof. Unfortunately when it comes to topics like these, it's hard to take anything as solid evidence.
Yeah, I make no secret of my disdain for 9/11 deniers. I think that without exception they are ignorant/stupid/crazy/liars (at least one of these but probably a combination). That is also not everything that I am saying however.
And I do think that the notion that the US government could kill 3,000 people in such a huge conspiracy without anybody coming forward is stupid, there would be thousands that know and that many people cannot be trusted to keep such a huge secret. A President cannot even get blowjob in the Oval Office, or burglarize an office, or conduct a little torture without the whole world finding out.
Shit, there are plenty of other less complicated ways (less possible leaks) that they could have accomplished the same thing. I can think of many off the top of my head if you want.
If I was an insider to the 9/11 conspiracy, I would go to the Bob Woodward and spill the beans. If they killed me or whatever, it would be already too late and further evidence of the conspiracy.
One thing that 9/11 deniers cannot answers is this: If the government is so evil and cunning to kill so many people without getting caught to get the country in war with Iraq on the false pretense of WMDs why the fuck didn't they plant them there to completely justify their actions? It would have been much simpler than 9/11.
Edited by dtugg (08/24/08 02:58 PM)
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8820540 - 08/24/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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IMO...You'll never know the truth.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8820847 - 08/24/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> Yeah, I make no secret of my disdain for 9/11 deniers.
It isn't worth getting worked up over. No matter how much sense you make, no matter how much time you take, no matter how hard you try, you will not change anybodies mind any more than they are going to change your mind. In the immortal words of Joshua, "Strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 355
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8821070 - 08/24/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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You have somewhat of a point, Seuss. However, I have converted a few truthers before so it is worth the effort to me to try here.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8821493 - 08/24/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Theres no answer. Everyone has a valid point but theres still no truth. Thats why conspiracy theories exist be them true or false.
A conspiracy theory is equal to a government explanation. Neither are solid prove. They are both based on belief.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Ego Death]
#8821645 - 08/24/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> A conspiracy theory is equal to a government explanation. Neither are solid prove. They are both based on belief.
For people like you and me, our opinions are based upon belief, but for the government reports, their opinions are based upon hundreds of thousands of man hours of research, education, simulation, testing, and experience.
If your child deathly ill, do you trust a professional medical doctor or the crazy guy on the street preaching about the healing power of faith? To ignore the experience and training of the professional engineers (for the most part, they are not government employees) and instead go with the wild conspiracy theories is much like trusting the crazy dude on the street over the advice of a professional medical doctor.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8821670 - 08/24/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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So what you're saying is the entire government including scientists or anyone ... EVERYONE of those type of the GOVERNMENT couldn't possibly know this was a cover up. They couldn't anyways. Like every government official would take a veow(tell me if I spelled that wrong) to keep it a secret. Now I see where you're coming from. Don't listen to FBI officials because honestly they're untrustworthy. Listen to scientists or the people that possibly build the towers? It just puts out more that those people could be paid off to not tell. If they did they'd be assasinated. It's been done before.
But I do agree with you o some points but it's and up and down type of thing.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
Loc: SOLARIS
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8821809 - 08/24/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > A conspiracy theory is equal to a government explanation. Neither are solid prove. They are both based on belief.
For people like you and me, our opinions are based upon belief, but for the government reports, their opinions are based upon hundreds of thousands of man hours of research, education, simulation, testing, and experience.
If your child deathly ill, do you trust a professional medical doctor or the crazy guy on the street preaching about the healing power of faith? To ignore the experience and training of the professional engineers (for the most part, they are not government employees) and instead go with the wild conspiracy theories is much like trusting the crazy dude on the street over the advice of a professional medical doctor.
This is ridiculous. The west always thought the far east was crazy for their methods of healing and practicing medicine. But in theses times, yoga is at an all time high, as are herbal remedies. How could any person in their right mind believe some scientists that are backing up the governments story as to why this happened. The government has admitted in the past and recently in the desclassification of mj12 documents that they are willing to use misinformation and other tactics to keep people quiet about things they feel the public should not know about.This is just more propaganda against the middle east to increase the publics disdain for muslims, so that we are more willing to die for causes that are of no significance to us. And the public is just eating it up. Calling truthers "nutjobs" and "crazies" is the same thing. Just to make the idea that your government would ever do anything to hurt their own people laughable. So that the next staged incident goes over a lot better than this last tragedy. If it were such and accident then why isnt the government helping the 1st responders? These people were told the air was safe to breathe, and now years later they are dying far too young, and the government they gave their health for is nowhere to be found.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Esophagus]
#8821818 - 08/24/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
So what you're saying is the entire government including scientists or anyone ... EVERYONE of those type of the GOVERNMENT couldn't possibly know this was a cover up
The president couldn't keep a blowjob secret... do you really expect me to believe that the government is able to force hundreds of engineers, with no political motives, that work for various private firms, to lie about the cause of whatever?
Even the people that do keep secrets for the government are regular everyday folk. I know, I used to be one of them, and many of my friends still are. One of my friends was literally in one of the offices in the pentagon that got destroyed. I have another friend that is in the Air Force and works at norad. I have another friend that was a USMC sniper (retired) that used to do not so nice things in central america. I know one of the guys that was on the team that searched for WMDs in Iraq. Although these people have some nasty jobs, they are not the type that would hide the mass murder of thousands of US citizens anymore than I would. And these are people that the government trusts, that have been through ten months (or more) of background checks to get clearance, not contract engineers with some firm. A little critical thinking can go a long way. Drop the hollywood x-files BS and realize that the average government worker is no different than the lady at the DMV.
> It just puts out more that those people could be paid off to not tell. If they did they'd be assasinated.
Again, too much TV. One person with proof is all it would take to protect the group. The government cant kill hundreds of engineers that all worked on the same report. It would be a bit obvious. Would you take a payoff to keep quiet? Why do you think everybody else would? Most engineers that I know are very well off financially. They don't really need extra money... and if they do, the rights to the story are worth enough to keep them happy forever.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Jack Albertson]
#8821850 - 08/24/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> The west always thought the far east was crazy for their methods of healing and practicing medicine.
I'm not talking about eastern medicine. I'm talking about the crazy guy on the street corner that thinks he is the messiah that can cure by touch. Don't put words into my mouth, please.
By professional medical doctor, I'm not saying western medicine. Again, don't assume.
Would you trust a medical doctor (be it eastern medicine, faith healer, western medicine, whatever) or the crazy nut on the street corner that spends most of the day talking to himself? If you answer the crazy guy, you are lying to yourself.
> These people were told the air was safe to breathe, and now years later they are dying far too young, and the government they gave their health for is nowhere to be found.
Was this conspiracy or just ineptness of those in charge at the EPA? I honestly don't know... probably a bit of both. However, a few politicians, protecting their job and downplaying danger to the public is much different than hundreds of professional engineers that have nothing to lose keeping a secret for no reason.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
Loc: SOLARIS
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8821935 - 08/24/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok. i dont need to prove anything, it's already happening, and will happen again. time will prove my point for me. Your use of the word crazy isnt helping your cause. Youre just doing what the government does best. Misinform.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
Edited by Jack Albertson (08/24/08 08:09 PM)
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8821969 - 08/24/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Seuss. You're right. Although I do believe they have government cover ups. 9/11 didn't seem like one now that you told me what seems more like on the lines of 'reality'.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Esophagus]
#8821977 - 08/24/08 08:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bottom line. You'll never know the full 'TRUTH' realistically about what happens what. IMO. I still have yet to read the articles and most likely am not going to. If everyone knew the truth our society, EVERYONE would go crazy and it would be a civil war...people vs people vs government. It would be complete chaos. Back on topic your hypothesis seems correct Seuss.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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LightShedder
Trading currencies



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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8822890 - 08/25/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dtugg said:
If I was an insider to the 9/11 conspiracy, I would go to the Bob Woodward and spill the beans. If they killed me or whatever, it would be already too late and further evidence of the conspiracy.
One thing that 9/11 deniers cannot answers is this: If the government is so evil and cunning to kill so many people without getting caught to get the country in war with Iraq on the false pretense of WMDs why the fuck didn't they plant them there to completely justify their actions? It would have been much simpler than 9/11.
Ok so since you claim that you would spill the beans I'm supposed to somehow be convinced that there's nobody who has ever kept their mouth shut about government coverups??? And to answer your question, IF this "conspiracy" were true, then 9/11 occured to make people like yourself and millions of other Americans get all riled up and say "YEAH FUCK THOSE SAND NIGGERS" so that when they did go over there (to secure their oil supply)- OH WAIT I MEAN, to stop terrorism or WMDs or whatever, most everybody would keep their mouth shut. That is one out of many possible motives I could Imagine. You've made a few statements that I would call "Patriotic" that resembles all these pro-War douches I hear and I can sense the anger that it is said with. This feeling is exactly what they would have wanted you and everybody else to feel like (if this were even true which I really am not trying to convince anybody of).
SUPPORT OUT TROOPS!!!! PROTECT OUR FREEDOM!!!!
BULLSHIT!!!!
Now I gave you one motive on the United States side. How about you give me a motive for those Islamic terrorists besides, "they are very religious folk who felt they were doing God a favor" or some bullshit. And all conspiracies aside, let's pretend like it is exactly as they say it is and it was just a bunch of pissed off Islams. Well we sure as hell are REALLY giving them something to be pissed about now. I know that this sounds all hippiedippie and it wouldn't for a second be taken seriously in any government officials eyes but, I mean if we just stuck to ourselves and left everybody alone (that means korea, the middle east, russia (that goes for you too russia) everyone would be happy. Cause they want peace, we want peace, everybody wants the same thing. And don't think that I for a second am ignorant of all the fucked up people in this world like I'm trying to say that if we ended all wars then EVERYTHING would be peaceful, because I don't believe that for a second. There will always be rape,murder,robberies, violence etc. but I just can't help but view major global conflict as anything but unneccesary.
Edited by LightShedder (08/25/08 12:30 AM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: LightShedder]
#8823456 - 08/25/08 05:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The government, military and intelligence community consists of so many different little groups that its impossible to know who's doing what. One thing is for sure - there is no master group which is controlling the world. Just thousands of small groups all with their own agendas some good, some bad depending on your perspective.
One of these groups could of helped the hijackers or pushed them in some covert way. History tells us its happened before. That doesn't mean they did though.
One truth this whole situation has revealed is just how much of the American public and the world distrust the American government.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Ego Death]
#8823504 - 08/25/08 06:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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> The government, military and intelligence community consists of so many different little groups that its impossible to know who's doing what.
Not really. Everything is kept "compartmentalized" for security purposes, thus there are lots of little groups that don't know what each other are doing, but at higher levels (president, joint chiefs, secretary of state, deputy directors, etc) this is no longer the case.
> One thing is for sure - there is no master group which is controlling the world.
Again, I disagree, a bit. There are organizations, such as the CFR, which tend to have a lot of influence in world politics. I don't think they are controlling the world, in the conspiratorial "they" sense, but these various groups are responsible for a lot of the crap that goes on in the world.
> One truth this whole situation has revealed is just how much of the American public and the world distrust the American government.
You nailed this one, and I agree completely!
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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dtugg
Druggie



Registered: 12/24/07
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
#8824064 - 08/25/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ok so since you claim that you would spill the beans I'm supposed to somehow be convinced that there's nobody who has ever kept their mouth shut about government coverups??
Sure a couple people could keep their mouths shut, namely the people that may have profited the most from it. But everybody that would have to be involved, no fucking way. Look at government coverups like Watergate, Clinton's blowjob, Iran-Contra, Abu Ghraib . They were all nowhere near the scale of 9/11 and all had people coming forward. 9/11 whistleblowers: zero.
Quote:
Now I gave you one motive on the United States side. How about you give me a motive for those Islamic terrorists besides, "they are very religious folk who felt they were doing God a favor" or some bullshit.
Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda made their motives very clear, even way before 9/11. They hate the presence of our military on their holy land, our support of Israel, and our influence on Middle East as a whole. They are willing to do anything possible to get revenge against the Great Satan for these atrocities. They really do believe that they are doing Allah's work by killing innocent people. They said this way back when Clinton was getting his dick sucked by an intern and it is a great tragedy that we didn't take them seriously enough back then.
Please answer this question: If BushCheneyHalibruton are so evil and cunning to pull off the false flag terrorist operation that is the most important event of our lifetimes to get the country riled up to go war with Iraq, why the hell didn't they plant WMDs there to make their actions seemingly 100% justified? It wouldn't be that hard to pull, at least compared to 9/11. All they would have to do is bury them in the middle of the desert, "find" them later and say Saddam put them there before the invasion.
And please don't make the mistake that I support Bush just because I can see that 9/11 fantasies are a joke. I hate the guy and I think that he has been a horrible president. Unlike many people, however, I don't let my emotions get in the way of rational thought.
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Esophagus
Mr. Poops



Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 203
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8824186 - 08/25/08 10:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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No one man is running this whole country that's for sure.
-------------------- "First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush, interview with Bob Costas at the 2008 Olympics, Beijing, China, Aug. 10, 2008
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pINNhEAD


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 235
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
#8875002 - 09/04/08 01:09 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Secret societies run banks, governments, & major corporations which sponsor media; controlling perception and feeding messages using neurolingustic programing and repeating the same messages until they become truth in the minds of the masses. Using over stimulation and mass marketing schemes to distract the public constantly is creating doublethinkers. Before i did any research i had the gut feeling i was being fed bullshit. I was in my senior year in HS on 9-11 and was cynical of the motives of the terrorists.
In your minds eye what do you see when you hear the word Terrorist?
The answer to that has nothing to do with the definition now does it?
That's a programmed response to stimulation, it's called a bind in NLP!
"His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully-constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them; to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy; to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved using doublethink."
Orwell, George (1949). Nineteen Eighty-Four.
I'm not going to provide any evidence to my claims, I'm only here to plant the seed of thought!
good night shroomery
-------------------- The above fiction is for entertainment purposes only. In no way do i intend anything stated on this site to be taken seriously.
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