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InvisibleMinstrel
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So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7
    #8810916 - 08/22/08 02:21 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html

Their analysis from a few years ago didn't seem adequate enough for people not to get funny ideas in their heads and do unpatriotic things like ask questions, so they decided to come up with a new one.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8810974 - 08/22/08 02:32 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Cool, glad it is finally settled.  Also glad they sought expert advice...
Quote:

NIST complemented its in-house expertise with private-sector technical experts




Done and done.  Next conspiracy.


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OfflineGroomies
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8810996 - 08/22/08 02:35 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

so from what i understand from that video.  if a fire starts in a building and the sprinklers fail to work then the whole thing is coming down. wow its so clear to me now. its the sprinklers that brought down the WTC's.  DAMN THOSE SHITTY SPRINKLERS!


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:hotidea::hotidea::hotidea:


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8810999 - 08/22/08 02:36 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

not to get funny ideas in their heads and do unpatriotic things like ask questions




That is an irrelevant appeal to emotion. 

Nobody ever said questioning anything is unpatriotic, ever.  Americans are constantly encouraged to question things.  I dont know where you people get these ideas...  Ive been encouraged to question things my entire life.  Thats why Im patriotic, because the government allows and encourages me to question things... even the government itself.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8811266 - 08/22/08 03:29 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

That was a joke, not an argument, my appologies :tongue2:.


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Edited by Minstrel (08/22/08 03:29 PM)


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8811310 - 08/22/08 03:36 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I'm going to start a business:  A demolition company.

Other demolition companies will do it the old-fashioned way. They bring down their tall buildings with lots of expensive time and work, with RDX and shaped charges, but my demolition company will do it at much less cost.

Here's how we'll do it: Fire.  We'll start a few fires around the building, and induce the same thermal effects as what occurred in WTC7.  Now that NIST has provided us with this never-before-seen mechanism of collapse, it will only be a matter of time before it's perfected, to be used commercially!  I predict huge success.

No expensive man-power, no explosives, just fire.  Building comes down, just as good as controlled demolition.  You won't be able to tell the difference.  :grin:


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Edited by Minstrel (08/22/08 03:40 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8811691 - 08/22/08 04:53 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

> You won't be able to tell the difference.  :grin:

As long as you ignore the damage to other buildings in the area.


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
    #8812020 - 08/22/08 06:24 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I dont believe every conspiracy theory but this one is different b/c there's evidence supporting both claims,the government's and a lot of the civilian population's. Time has shown me that in life, the coincidences, ideas, and people that are deemed "crazy" are usually the truth.


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Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8812056 - 08/22/08 06:32 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Time has shown me that in life, the coincidences, ideas, and people that are deemed "crazy" are usually the truth.


  Usually?  Please, that is certainly not true.  Millions of crazy people in history were in fact crazy.  Very few people who were deemed crazy have ever been shown to be truthful.

Also, there is not evidence that supports both sides.  There is conjecture and fear of the government on one side, and conjecture and evidence on the other.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8812103 - 08/22/08 06:39 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Here is a good letter.  Call it 'conspiracy theory' if you want, even if it is peer reviewed, just don't argue that you lose anything by taking the time to read it:

Open Civil Engineering Journal:  Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction

Abstract:
Reports by FEMA and NIST lay out the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center on
9/11/2001. In this Letter, we wish to set a foundation for productive discussion and understanding by focusing on those
areas where we find common ground with FEMA and NIST, while at the same time countering several popular myths
about the WTC collapses.


I found NIST's rational for not investigating for explosives rather silly:

Quote:

14. Search for Explosive or Thermite Residues
From a NIST FAQ:
[Question: ] “Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."
[Answer: ] NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel” [3].

We agree; there is no evidence that NIST tested for residues of thermite or explosives. This is another remarkable admission. Probing for residues from pyrotechnic materials including thermite in particular, is specified in fire and explosion investigations by the NFPA 921 code: Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials [26].

Traces of thermite in residues (solidified slag, dust, etc.) would tell us a great deal about the crime and the cause of thousands of injuries and deaths. This is standard procedure for fire and explosion investigations. Perhaps NIST will explain why they have not looked for these residues? The code specifies that fire-scene investigators must be prepared to justify an exclusion [26].

NIST has been asked about this important issue recently, by investigative reporter Jennifer Abel:

Abel: "..what about that letter where NIST said it didn't look for evidence of explosives?”
Neuman [spokesperson at NIST, listed on the WTC report]: "Right, because there was no evidence of that."
Abel: But how can you know there's no evidence if you don't look for it first?
Neuman: "If you're looking for something that isn't there, you're wasting your time... and the taxpayers’ money.” [27].




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Edited by Minstrel (08/22/08 07:10 PM)


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Offlinedtugg
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8812958 - 08/22/08 10:32 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

So they publishing a report where they actually argree with the government is somehow proof of a conspiracy?

The reason that they didn't test for thermite is because the wholeidea is stupid. Steven Jones just made the whole thing up. There is a reason that his thermite hypothesis will not show up in any kind of peer reviewed publication - real scientists know that it makes no sense.


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: DieCommie]
    #8813240 - 08/22/08 11:33 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Time has shown me that in life, the coincidences, ideas, and people that are deemed "crazy" are usually the truth.


  Usually?  Please, that is certainly not true.  Millions of crazy people in history were in fact crazy.  Very few people who were deemed crazy have ever been shown to be truthful.

Also, there is not evidence that supports both sides.  There is conjecture and fear of the government on one side, and conjecture and evidence on the other.


So that fact that you say so makes you right? You seriously need to stop trying to make your arguments one sided. I think you just disagree for the sake of argument.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
    #8813793 - 08/23/08 01:55 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dtugg said:
So they publishing a report where they actually argree with the government is somehow proof of a conspiracy?
The reason that they didn't test for thermite is because the wholeidea is stupid. Steven Jones just made the whole thing up. There is a reason that his thermite hypothesis will not show up in any kind of peer reviewed publication - real scientists know that it makes no sense.




'Stupid' is your own personal perception of the hypothesis; it is not a sound basis for an argument (at least its not going to be of much consequence to anyone).  Once again (especially now that you are in Sci and Tech) I'd ask to to please provide your evidence to support your claim that S. Jones 'made the whole thing up',  I'm really eager to know the details.  Btw, the letter I presented was from a mainstream civil engineering journal; a peer reviewed publication.  Given your first question, I would really like to ask if you read any of it beyond the title and abstract?

So far all you've done is foam at the mouth and resort to ad hominems, some ad populum, and most notoriously in the Pol thread, before Phred was wise enough to close it, ad baculum (nuts like me need to be put down).


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Edited by Minstrel (08/23/08 02:16 AM)


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Offlinedtugg
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8813881 - 08/23/08 02:14 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I have read his stupid paper. It is very clear that he made the whole thing up. He started with the idea that the the towers were brought down with a controlled demo. Since there were no extremely louds sounds associated with a regular one, he had to think of some way that it might have been done more or less silently. Ah thermite! Maybe that could do it. He makes no effort to prove that this could have been done, or show exactly how it would have been done. By this, I mean saying approximately how much thermite would be needed and where it would have been placed (without anybody noticing, esecially important because they would have had expose the columns and place it directly on them). The only "evidence" that he cites is that certain elements that were found in some dust were the same as would be found in a thermite reaction. Of course, he totally ignores the fact that all of these elements would have been there anyway. This is not real science and anybody with a brain can see that.

The letter that you presented does not really go into his thermite theory, that is why it was able to pe published in a real journal. Don't you wonder why the paper that outlines his thermite BS was only published in the same journal where he is a founder and editor?


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
    #8813935 - 08/23/08 02:26 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Once again, you have to start out by needing to qualify something as 'stupid', and saying it's simply 'very clear he made the whole thing up', and proceed to give an explanation of his work as perceived simply by YOU.  Sorry, I'm still waiting.

Have a good night.



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Edited by Minstrel (08/23/08 02:32 AM)


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OfflineKarenTandy
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* [Re: Minstrel]
    #8814015 - 08/23/08 02:48 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

*


Edited by KarenTandy (08/13/09 10:09 PM)


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Offlinedtugg
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8814245 - 08/23/08 04:19 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
Once again, you have to start out by needing to qualify something as 'stupid', and saying it's simply 'very clear he made the whole thing up', and proceed to give an explanation of his work as perceived simply by YOU.  Sorry, I'm still waiting.

Have a good night.






Honestly, I really don't care enough to go read through that crap again to find any specific examples and I am sure that you wouldn't change your mind even if I did. You want so badly for it to be an inside job that you will not listen to reason.

One point, I will make without looking at it again, is why the hell didn't he at least show it was possible for thermite to cut through large steel beams "like a hot knife through butter?" All he would have to do is get a steel beam like was used in the WTC and some thermite and try it out. Since he used to be a professor at a large university (before being forcing into retirement because his lack of professionalism), I am sure that he could have arranged it if he wanted to. If he did this, I would at least give him some credit. BTW, some truther tried this at Burning Man and failed miserably.

I'll leave the argument at this:

Why is it, do think that Jones has failed to get his thermite work published in any scientific or engineering publications? No, the one where is an editor doesn't count. Is it because they all being paid off or intimidated by the vast conspiracy so the public won't see the thermite truth? Or is it because there is nothing scientific about his work at all?


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Offlinedtugg
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Minstrel]
    #8814271 - 08/23/08 04:40 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, I think that another deranged truther, Judy Wood*, might be onto something. Did the NIST test ground zero for signs that the towers were brought down using a directed energy beam from space? If not, I think this is evidence a Star Wars weapon is really what brought down the towers and the NIST is covering it up.



*Most people have probably never heard of Judy Wood. She is a batshit crazy woman who really believes that the US government demolished the twin towers by using some sort of super secret directed energy weapon from space. A lot of truthers dismiss her as a disinfo agent planted to make their movement look stupid, but she really is that far gone. The sad thing is that she has several degrees in relevent fields including a PhD in Materials Engineering Science. Surprisingly, Clemson University, where she used to teach, declined to continue her employment after she started telling people about her theories.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: dtugg]
    #8814336 - 08/23/08 06:08 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

> Did the NIST test ground zero for signs that the towers were brought down using a directed energy beam from space?

Didn't some highly decorated physics professor from BYU find residual traces of high energy photons lingering about in the rubble?  With residual traces of high energy photons laying around, there can be no question.  Aliens created crop circles, just before the attacks, to allow the US government to redirect the output from the HARM device, located on the dark side of the moon, directly at the towers.  In return, the aliens were given all of the people from the planes to use in experiments.  The planes were filled with dead opossum remains and slaughterhouse leftovers before being crashed.  (sarcasm for the impaired)


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Offlinemagicbastard
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Re: So, after 7 years, we finally know what happened in WTC7 [Re: Seuss]
    #8814411 - 08/23/08 07:43 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The fall of the 47-story World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) in New York City late in the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, was primarily due to fires




Quote:

“Video and photographic evidence combined with detailed computer simulations show that neither explosives nor fuel oil fires played a role in the collapse of WTC 7,”




So...if I read that right...the plane crashes didn't start the fires...that means terrorists must have ran into the towers after crashing the planes and started fires, so the planes were just a decoy to distract everybody from them starting fires, simple as that.


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