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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Last seen: 9 years, 8 days
Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry
    #8809502 - 08/22/08 05:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I want to yell at whoever made it but all I can do is yell at my computer screen.
There is so much wrong with it I don't know where to begin.  :crankey:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: zouden]
    #8809591 - 08/22/08 07:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, care to elaborate?


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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: wisp]
    #8809669 - 08/22/08 08:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

oh I probably should have posted it, rofl

Fuck you Jack Chick!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: zouden]
    #8809696 - 08/22/08 08:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why would an idea disturb you?  The world abounds with people who hold erroneous ideas.  Ideas don't disturb me half as much as actions.  Or are the actions of the people that hold those ideas what really disturb you?

There are two sides of a coin here.

Christians, Muslims and other religions that have committed despicable acts.

Atheists and agnostics have also done the same.

Therefore, the only conclusion we can draw from these facts is that religion isn't an insulator from heinous acts.

I do not believe anyone has absolute control over their behavior.  A debatable point, nevertheless, I believe it.  (this in not an invitation to sidetrack this thread with a debate on this issue)

:peace:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
We be jammin', mon!
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 44,925
Loc: Urban Jungle
Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8810270 - 08/22/08 12:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Therefore, the only conclusion we can draw from these facts is that religion isn't an insulator from heinous acts.





I am not going to dig up a link as this has been covered many times, but large scale social studies show that agnostics/athiests have somewhat higher moral standards/behaviours than religious folk. Go figure...


--------------------


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8810416 - 08/22/08 12:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

not so strange

Christians haven't created the idea of morality and ethics
atheists, agnostics, philosophers, scientists, sure Christians detached in someway or those who've high-jacked morals have

might as well say humans behave more civilized than raccoons


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8810422 - 08/22/08 12:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

From what I see, most pro-lifers are also in favor of killing kids in Iraq (and sometimes abortion doctors too).

Freak out over killing a clump of cells, but real dead children are not a problem. Go figure.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: zouden]
    #8810426 - 08/22/08 12:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I understand where you're coming from, but I'd actually have to agree with that comic.  If you take away an all-powerful being laying out morality on a metaphysical basis, you take away a fundamental foundation to a "true" morality.

Without God, you're left with either the ethical relativism inherent in fellow humans dictating what is moral and what isn't, or you're forced to rely upon biological mores coded into us by our genetic structure.  Either way, this is far less meaningful than any morals that transcend space/time by their innate sense of divine truth. (Of course, I'm not saying these latter morals exist--in fact, as a materialistic cynic erring on the side of nihilism, I'd say that no absolute morals exist whatsoever--just that the lack of an ethical God makes immorality far easier.)


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: deCypher]
    #8810550 - 08/22/08 01:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you take away an all-powerful being laying out morality on a metaphysical basis, you take away a fundamental foundation to a "true" morality.




Hmm...so if humans weren't utilizing the threat of a (probably) imaginary supernatural being, we would not be able to apply amoral rules in order to facilitate security and community?  Does it seem to you that invented morals are doing a good job of changing human behaviors?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
We be jammin', mon!
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: Diploid]
    #8810554 - 08/22/08 01:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Are you using logic... AGAIN?! :nonono:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: deCypher]
    #8810608 - 08/22/08 01:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I understand where you're coming from, but I'd actually have to agree with that comic.  If you take away an all-powerful being laying out morality on a metaphysical basis, you take away a fundamental foundation to a "true" morality.

Without God, you're left with either the ethical relativism inherent in fellow humans dictating what is moral and what isn't, or you're forced to rely upon biological mores coded into us by our genetic structure.  Either way, this is far less meaningful than any morals that transcend space/time by their innate sense of divine truth. (Of course, I'm not saying these latter morals exist--in fact, as a materialistic cynic erring on the side of nihilism, I'd say that no absolute morals exist whatsoever--just that the lack of an ethical God makes immorality far easier.)




Yea I agree. Despite the obvious dimwittedness of it, its clearly a real issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: Veritas]
    #8810759 - 08/22/08 01:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

If you take away an all-powerful being laying out morality on a metaphysical basis, you take away a fundamental foundation to a "true" morality.




Hmm...so if humans weren't utilizing the threat of a (probably) imaginary supernatural being, we would not be able to apply amoral rules in order to facilitate security and community?  Does it seem to you that invented morals are doing a good job of changing human behaviors?




Well, there's a difference between a system of absolute morality, where we follow rules simply because the rules are "good", and a system of laws that facilitates security and community.  If you want to stop senseless violence and death, laws are a good idea--but if you claim the nonexistence of a Deity and the nonexistence of a self-complete Good, you can't claim that the laws are truly moral as they were put in place by fellow humans like us.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: deCypher]
    #8810764 - 08/22/08 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

you can't claim that the laws are truly moral as they were put in place by fellow humans like us.




How is this different from the current arrangement?  Oh, right, some of us are pretending that these laws were put in place by a non-human.  :lol:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: Veritas]
    #8810785 - 08/22/08 01:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, if you take the attitude that God and the whole system of religious ethics is a fraud, then there is no difference.  All I'm saying is if you accept that premise, you have much more of a reason to behave morally than otherwise.  Exposing the system for what it is--an authoritarian system of control through tradition and appeal to an imaginary higher power--makes any other supposed foundation for morality rather shakier.  The person who believes in God has a much greater reason for acting morally than the person who does not believe in any kind of absolute metaphysical principles.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: deCypher]
    #8810794 - 08/22/08 01:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What about empathy and a sense of justice as foundations for ethical decision-making?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: Veritas]
    #8810805 - 08/22/08 02:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)


I am for secularizing society as much as it benefits society as a whole but I do not jump on this bandwagon of secular idealism. Secularity will not magically fix the problems that are often correlated with morality. We might be a bit more clear-minded this way, but we would still be governed by fear of punishment.

A good idea in my opinion would be an explicit social contract between government and the people, as proposed by Jean-Jacques Rousseau. This would be a great improvement on an international scale, as it would dissolve the basis for crusades which our current claim to "sacred" human rights compels us to. But it would not change anything  intrinsically concerning the will to power.

Herein we are still faced with a choice between the uniform will to power, and a dualistic control/limitation of it - morality or ethics, it makes no difference because they are both substantiated in the same basic way - irrationally. There is no rational reason that the individual should heed society outside the basic idea that he is forced to. The people are controlled by the fear of punishment, whether it is God or the state. Concerning the theme of this comic, secularization would make no difference. Sure, the comic is idiotic, but I think I would probably disagree with most of you for the reasons why.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: daytripper23]
    #8810819 - 08/22/08 02:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Ethical development can progress beyond the childish fear of punishment.  It's rare, certainly, but IMO this has more to do with a lack of education/guidance than an actual limitation of the organism.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: daytripper23]
    #8810842 - 08/22/08 02:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
What about empathy and a sense of justice as foundations for ethical decision-making?




Empathy might be viable, but still--what incentive is there for me to not commit evil?  Just because I can feel your pain doesn't logically imply that I should help you.

And how do you get your sense of justice?  Is this an absolute or a relative idea of fairness?  If the former, how do you know?  And if the latter, it's clear that since every individual must have a different concept of justice, then no stable solution for a world without evil can satisfy everyone equally.  This seems to make for a very inconsistent foundation for ethical decision-making, IMO.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: Veritas]
    #8810857 - 08/22/08 02:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Blewmeanie's signature pic makes me so angry [Re: deCypher]
    #8810889 - 08/22/08 02:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It seems to me that the classic "do unto others" would be a fair standard for what is just.  If combined with a developed sense of empathy, the result would be compassion.  Of course, it is highly unlikely that the entire human population will become compassionate, but this does not contradict the quality of the ideal.

As I am not religious, my ethics are based upon the idea of being a citizen of the world in which I would like to live. This works well for me, and seems to work well for those around me, too.


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