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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24361483 - 05/30/17 01:08 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, I'll make you a deal.  Show me where the CIA report says people are limited to "high-starch food, some bread, some potato maybe some soup".  Show me where it says "if you complain, off to the gulag".  Show me where it says people "stand in this long ass line in the cold and wait for food".  If you do, I'll give you a five shroom rating.  If you can't you're clearly just lying.  I'll even help you by pointing you to the "DIET" section on page 62 of the CIA report



Inability to understand sarcasm?



So when I asked you to provide real examples of how communism sucked after Stalin, you gave me a bunch of sarcastic responses instead of real ones???  :flowstone:  So do you have any real examples or not?  I've asked you about a half dozen times now.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Nevertheless, the large Soviet demand for quality foods remains unmet. Because output of these quality foods is insufficient and state retail prices are low in relation to money incomes, long queues and informal rationing are widespread.  In some places, the authorities have invoked a mild form of rationing limiting the purchases of certain foods by state store customers.




Quote:

Soviets consumed more starchy staples than Americans, but the gap had narrowed somewhat.  Meanwhile, more livestock products were available; per capita consumption of meat increased 40 percent during 1970-82, although Soviet citizens on average still ate only half as much meat as Americans.






First of all, you forgot to include the opening line "Food is perhaps the brightest area in the comparative living standards picture."  and you also omitted the closing bit about collective farm markets, which is where people could get "superior quality" food (CIA's terms) that weren't in the state market.  And you assume things sucked because they ate less meat, which is ridiculous.  People eat way more meat in the US than they should, and while I'm not knocking them for it, it doesn't prove Soviets had it bad because they ate less meat.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You claimed Americans can do whatever job they like, and I proved that 70% of Americans hate their jobs.



How does that prove they can't choose their occupation?
Perhaps they chose the occupation but don't enjoy doing it for a  number of reasons?



The same way you can't prove Soviets couldn't choose their occupation.  Soviets could choose any job they wanted that they were best qualified for, just like here in the US.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
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Last seen: 10 months, 11 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24361511 - 05/30/17 01:17 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Ok, now i can say the USSR would succeed if it werent under a brutal dictator, and were back to square 1.

I could say the same about anyone current capitalist failure, too.




But it didn't succeed when it wasn't under a brutal dictator lol
So no, you've moved up several squares on the path to revelation.

Capitalism will succeed in safe environments with law and order
Communism will not succeed in safe environments with law and order, in fact it needs extreme law and order to barely function.




Communism has never existed in a safe nation ruled by law and order.




What does that tell you then?
When there is so much law and so much adherence to order
that it literally becomes unsafe in order to function.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24361516 - 05/30/17 01:18 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361524 - 05/30/17 01:20 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



Healthcare sucks right now in the US unless your in the elite...


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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 11 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24361527 - 05/30/17 01:21 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



Healthcare sucks right now in the US unless your in the elite...




Healthcare is fine, it's access to it that sucks.
I mean, didn't we remedy that with ACA?


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361545 - 05/30/17 01:27 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



Healthcare sucks right now in the US unless your in the elite...




Healthcare is fine, it's access to it that sucks.
I mean, didn't we remedy that with ACA?



ACA has nothing to do with it. I can't get a prescription I need thanks to my insurance company I can't afford 500 dollars a month for pills not to mention I pay 200 just to see the a damn doctor. Thats all the insurance companies fault. Sure though our healthcare is good :lol:.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 11 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24361551 - 05/30/17 01:29 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



Healthcare sucks right now in the US unless your in the elite...




Healthcare is fine, it's access to it that sucks.
I mean, didn't we remedy that with ACA?



ACA has nothing to do with it. I can't get a prescription I need thanks to my insurance company I can't afford 500 dollars a month for pills not to mention I pay 200 just to see the a damn doctor. Thats all the insurance companies fault. Sure though our healthcare is good :lol:.




Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361570 - 05/30/17 01:33 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

[
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



Healthcare sucks right now in the US unless your in the elite...




Healthcare is fine, it's access to it that sucks.
I mean, didn't we remedy that with ACA?



ACA has nothing to do with it. I can't get a prescription I need thanks to my insurance company I can't afford 500 dollars a month for pills not to mention I pay 200 just to see the a damn doctor. Thats all the insurance companies fault. Sure though our healthcare is good :lol:.




Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..



Healthcare is bad to doctors are overworked and misdiagnose problems all the time. Healthcare should not have a profit motive its the cause of the all the United States problems with healthcare. At least in a universal system people aren't drowning in medical debt.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 11 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24361614 - 05/30/17 01:48 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
[
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.

You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.

Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



Healthcare sucks right now in the US unless your in the elite...




Healthcare is fine, it's access to it that sucks.
I mean, didn't we remedy that with ACA?



ACA has nothing to do with it. I can't get a prescription I need thanks to my insurance company I can't afford 500 dollars a month for pills not to mention I pay 200 just to see the a damn doctor. Thats all the insurance companies fault. Sure though our healthcare is good :lol:.




Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..



Healthcare is bad to doctors are overworked and misdiagnose problems all the time. Healthcare should not have a profit motive its the cause of the all the United States problems with healthcare. At least in a universal system people aren't drowning in medical debt.</font></font></font>




LOL.

You think universal healthcare will fix ANYTHING other than the access to it?
I mean you're more than welcome to come experience it here, assuming you can get a bed and a doctor given the fact they're on strike all the time.
and assuming you don't die in the waiting room or while waiting months for the procedure.


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361628 - 05/30/17 01:53 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

It will fix people who can't afford medication. It will prevent people from drowning in medical debt. Every country that has universal healthcare is far more efficient than the US since they have an incentive to encourage patients to adopt healthy choices and not just force them take a battery of tests which causes confusion and misdiagnoses. The US is one of the least efficient rich countries when it comes to healthcare. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient

I'll cut you some slack since you don't know how good you have it overseas with a universal system but US healthcare is terrible.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Posts: 865
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24361674 - 05/30/17 02:06 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
It will fix people who can't afford medication. It will prevent people from drowning in medical debt. Every country that has universal healthcare is far more efficient than the US since they have an incentive to encourage patients to adopt healthy choices and not just force them take a battery of tests which causes confusion and misdiagnoses. The US is one of the least efficient rich countries when it comes to healthcare. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient

I'll cut you some slack since you don't know how good you have it overseas with a universal system but US healthcare is terrible.



:facepalm:


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24361715 - 05/30/17 02:18 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
It will fix people who can't afford medication. It will prevent people from drowning in medical debt. Every country that has universal healthcare is far more efficient than the US since they have an incentive to encourage patients to adopt healthy choices and not just force them take a battery of tests which causes confusion and misdiagnoses. The US is one of the least efficient rich countries when it comes to healthcare. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient

I'll cut you some slack since you don't know how good you have it overseas with a universal system but US healthcare is terrible.



:facepalm:



I mean this genuinely I really hope you don't get sick in the US.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24361819 - 05/30/17 02:41 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
It will fix people who can't afford medication. It will prevent people from drowning in medical debt. Every country that has universal healthcare is far more efficient than the US since they have an incentive to encourage patients to adopt healthy choices and not just force them take a battery of tests which causes confusion and misdiagnoses. The US is one of the least efficient rich countries when it comes to healthcare. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient

I'll cut you some slack since you don't know how good you have it overseas with a universal system but US healthcare is terrible.



:facepalm:



I mean this genuinely I really hope you don't get sick in the US.




Finding good health insurance is key.
it's certainly getting harder.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361922 - 05/30/17 03:08 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular, circular, circular.



Yes, it is circular:

"Can you provide any examples of how communism was really bad after Stalin?
"Here's a sarcastic but totally made up reply!"
"But can you provide any real examples"
"Here's an example how it sucked under Stalin"
But can you provide any examples of how communism was really bad after Stalin?
repeat, repeat, repeat...

I'll ask again, can you provide any non sarcastic real examples of how it sucked after Stalin???  :popcorn:

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
You asked me to show how healthcare sucked.
I did that.



What was your specific example?  I remember "Say it with me: S.U.C.K.E.D"

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Asked me to show they lived on mostly high-starch diet
I did that.



No, I asked you to "show me where the CIA report says people are limited to 'high-starch food, some bread, some potato maybe some soup'".  You provided a CIA report that said:

"Food is perhaps the brightest area in the comparative living standards picture.  In 1981 the daily caloric level of the Soviet diet nearly matched that of the United States.  Soviets consumed more starchy staples than Americans, but the gap had narrowed somewhat.  Meanwhile, more livestock products were available; per capita consumption of meat increased 40 percent during 1970-82, although Soviet citizens on average still ate only half as much meat as Americans. Soviet per capita protein levels nonetheless nearly matched US levels.  Protein in the Soviet food supply increased from one-third to one-half, and recommended daily per capita caloric levels in the USSR were exceeded.  The Soviet levels are higher than the US recommended caloric allowances for adults."

which didn't support your sarcastic make believe claim.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Maybe I should ask you why communism wasn't 'that bad'?



For the third time "everyone had free housing, free education, free healthcare, a job, plenty of food, etc."


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24361929 - 05/30/17 03:10 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
It will fix people who can't afford medication. It will prevent people from drowning in medical debt. Every country that has universal healthcare is far more efficient than the US since they have an incentive to encourage patients to adopt healthy choices and not just force them take a battery of tests which causes confusion and misdiagnoses. The US is one of the least efficient rich countries when it comes to healthcare. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient

I'll cut you some slack since you don't know how good you have it overseas with a universal system but US healthcare is terrible.



:facepalm:



Cyrus is right.  US healthcare was only ranked #37 in the world, WELL behind countries in which healthcare is socialized:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24361945 - 05/30/17 03:16 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..



That's why we should replace private insurance with a Single Payer plan.  It allows hospitals to stay private, but allows everyone to be insured.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/07/06
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 4
    #24361959 - 05/30/17 03:21 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..




Well, insurance companies take 20% of the money to "manage costs", how effective have they been the past 30 years?  A disaster.

What incentive do insurance companies have to control costs?  None, in fact they need costs to go higher to see any growth themselves.


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24361981 - 05/30/17 03:28 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..




Well, insurance companies take 20% of the money to "manage costs", how effective have they been the past 30 years?  A disaster.

What incentive do insurance companies have to control costs?  None, in fact they need costs to go higher to see any growth themselves.



This is an example of capitalism working against the average citizen.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24362024 - 05/30/17 03:40 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


For the third time "everyone had free housing, free education, free healthcare, a job, plenty of food, etc."




Round and round we go.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: qman]
    #24362029 - 05/30/17 03:41 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..




Well, insurance companies take 20% of the money to "manage costs", how effective have they been the past 30 years?  A disaster.

What incentive do insurance companies have to control costs?  None, in fact they need costs to go higher to see any growth themselves.




So insurance companies are the problem, not healthcare x2


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