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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24360886 - 05/30/17 08:12 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.




North Korea.


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24360897 - 05/30/17 08:21 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Starvation isn't something that occurs under capitalism.







:rofl2:

:facepalm:

:sad:




Where's the starvation?
Find me all the dead American's dying from starvation.
I can find you millions dying from obesity.

I feel like you've convinced yourself America is so awful and capitalism so heartless you're unable to look around and see how good everything is.



Oh cinnamon many people starved to death in the us before the advent of programs designed to prevent that... Do some reading on America before the new deal.





Oh really?

Quote:

Until the early 19th century, even the poorest citizens of the United States were generally protected from hunger by a combination of factors. The ratio of productive land to population was high. Upper class Americans often still held to the old European ideal of Noblesse oblige and made sure their workers had sufficient food. Labour shortages meant the poor could invariably find a position - although until the American Revolution this often involved indentured servitude, this at least protected the poor from the unpredictable nature of wage labor, and sometimes paupers were rewarded with their own plot of land at the end of their period of servitude. Additionally, working class traditions of looking out for each other were strong




Quote:

The number of hungry and homeless people in the U.S. increased in the 1870s due to industrialization. Though economic developments were hugely beneficial overall, driving America's Gilded Age, they had a negative impact on some of the poorest citizens. As was the case in 19th century Britain, many influential Americans believed in classical liberalism and opposed government intervention to help the hungry, as they thought it could encourage dependency and would disrupt the operation of the free market. The 1870s saw the AICP and the American branch of the Charity Organization Society successfully lobby to end the practice where city official would hand out small sums of cash to the poor. Unlike in Britain though, there was no nationwide restrictions on private efforts to help the hungry, and civil society immediately began to provide alternative aid for the poor, establishing soup kitchens in U.S. cities.




Quote:

By the turn of the century, improved economic conditions were helping to reduce hunger for all sections of society, even the poorest.[58] The early 20th century saw a substantial rise in agricultural productivity; while this led to rural unemployment even in the otherwise "roaring" 1920s, it helped lower food prices throughout the United States. During World War I and its aftermath, the U.S. was able to send over 20 millions of food to relieve hunger in Europe. The United States has since been a world leader for relieving hunger internationally, although her foreign aid has sometimes been criticised for being poorly targeted and politicised. An early critic who argued against the U.S. on these grounds in the 1940s was Lord Boyd-Orr, the first head of the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization.[59]






In poor economies people starve, in good economies people live.
Why is this so difficult to grasp?

The goal should be keeping the economy strong, so people can help themselves and others, humans are social creatures that don't like to witness others suffering needlessly.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 29,703
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Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 3
    #24360941 - 05/30/17 09:03 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.




North Korea.




North Korea isnt safe. They live under a brutal dictatorship under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation.


--------------------


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24360975 - 05/30/17 09:28 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.




North Korea.




North Korea isnt safe. They live under a brutal dictatorship under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation.




It's pretty safe, so long as you abide by their obscene laws, hell they even permit tourism.
South Korea lives under the threat of nuclear annihilation also, would you consider it unsafe?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 5,790
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 3
    #24360985 - 05/30/17 09:35 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-starving-his-people-pay-nuclear-weapons-573015%3famp=1


Roughly 18 million people in North Korea are not getting enough food, a United Nations report released this week found. That means 70 percent of the isolated nation's population relies on food assistance to get by, including 1.3 million children under the age of five.

"Amidst political tensions, an estimated 18 million people across DPRK [North Korea] continue to suffer from food insecurity and undernutrition, as well as a lack of access to basic services," the U.N. report said. "Furthermore, 10.5 million people, or 41 percent of the total population, are undernourished."


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24360992 - 05/30/17 09:42 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-starving-his-people-pay-nuclear-weapons-573015%3famp=1


Roughly 18 million people in North Korea are not getting enough food, a United Nations report released this week found. That means 70 percent of the isolated nation's population relies on food assistance to get by, including 1.3 million children under the age of five.

"Amidst political tensions, an estimated 18 million people across DPRK [North Korea] continue to suffer from food insecurity and undernutrition, as well as a lack of access to basic services," the U.N. report said. "Furthermore, 10.5 million people, or 41 percent of the total population, are undernourished."



Free health care
Free education
food available.

North Korea after Kim Jong-Il is not that bad.


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Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24360997 - 05/30/17 09:47 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Where's the starvation?







There are children in rural KY/TN/WV/NC counties, and probably LA and MS, that their only source of food comes from their public school.  The source of their starvation could be debated, whether it's general poverty, shitty, drug/alcohol addicted parents who don't place their childs' needs ahead of their own, or you could blame the industries that long ago pulled their factories/warehouses from these places, or BIG-AG who has helped, in conjunction with the gov't, to lower the price of corn/soybeans/tobacco to prices so low many already poor people and/or poor people with small tracts of land can't make enough of a profit to justify the risk (if they can even get loans from financial institutions based on the risk.)


Regardless, you're naive and a fool to think there aren't children starving in the USA, especially during the summer when there is no school in session, and no public funding for summer programs for schools.



However, you probably think starving = starving to death, which is simply not the whole of it.


You're really quite the high-horse rider.  Why don't you leave your country and come see this shit for yourself.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #24361021 - 05/30/17 10:02 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

http://mashable.com/2016/07/14/child-hunger-united-states/#6jPzQsk0Yaqk

An estimated 48.8 million Americans , including 16.2 million children, live in households that lack the means to get enough nutritious food on a regular basis. As a result, about 1 in 5 children go hungry at some point during the year.


Thank you Capitalism!


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24361023 - 05/30/17 10:03 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Where's the starvation?







There are children in rural KY/TN/WV/NC counties, and probably LA and MS, that their only source of food comes from their public school.  The source of their starvation could be debated, whether it's shitty, drug/alcohol addicted parents who don't place their childs' needs ahead of their own, or you could blame the industries that long ago pulled their factories/warehouses from these places, or BIG-AG who has helped, in conjunction with the gov't, to lower the price of corn/soybeans/tobacco to prices so low many already poor people and/or poor people with small tracts of land can't make enough of a profit to justify the risk (if they can even get loans from financial institutions based on the risk.)


Regardless, you're naive and a fool to think there aren't children starving in the USA, especially during the summer when there is no school in session, and no public funding for summer programs for schools.



However, you probably think starving = starving to death, which is simply not the whole of it.


You're really quite the high-horse rider.  Why don't you leave your country and come see this shit for yourself.




I'm in the visa process to come see your alleged third world shit hole you oh-so hate, would you like to swap places and come here to enjoy our wonderfully inefficient, underfunded, understaffed, overworked public hospitals?
Where we also have kids starving and only get food at school?
As well as the highest rate of domestic violence of any country per 100,000?
Perhaps come enjoy our 90,000 teenage unemployment paradise?
Or our ridiculously high average Auckland housing/rent prices?

These are issues created by worthless government policies.

Quote:

BIG-AG who has helped, in conjunction with the gov't, to lower the price of corn/soybeans/tobacco to prices so low many already poor people and/or poor people with small tracts of land can't make enough of a profit to justify the risk




This meme, 'big-ag' is inherently big.
meaning more.
meaning more food.
meaning lower food prices.
Farmers selling their fields to Monsanto or other "BIG-AG" companies doesn't mean there will be less food, it means there will be more of it.

While I get that it sucks people can't make a commercial living off it as much as they used to, I don't think we need to grind the entire system to a halt to ensure these farmers can compete, it's much better to ensure the best most efficient, cheapest system wins out which will benefit millions of people.

And you're right, kids going hungry in the west in almost in every instance down to the parents, it's the same shit here.
However, some evil decadent free market capitalists have worked out how to feed these poor kids https://www.eatmylunch.nz/
It's actually pretty fucking delicious too, while the government and liberals are flopping around demanding higher taxes, smart people are working out solutions to such problems.

I'm not trying to pretend this is the solution to world hunger, but these systems are found everywhere and benefit millions of people, I'm trying to be the devils advocate, this forum is infested with leftism where the only solution is government and people only declare the USSR as "not that bad".

yes, I am a high-horse rider, I love the view from up here.


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24361051 - 05/30/17 10:18 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
http://mashable.com/2016/07/14/child-hunger-united-states/#6jPzQsk0Yaqk

An estimated 48.8 million Americans , including 16.2 million children, live in households that lack the means to get enough nutritious food on a regular basis. As a result, about 1 in 5 children go hungry at some point during the year.


Thank you Capitalism!





Quote:

In the U.S., hunger is caused by the prevalence of poverty, not food scarcity. Stable food access is often blocked for low-income families that struggle to balance the need for food with other basic necessities.






I wonder if basic necessities include cigarettes and netflix?

So plenty of food, people still hungry, charity springs up and calls for volunteering, donating and supporting come out.

It again comes down to personal responsibility, if you have a child and you can't afford to support that child, I'd consider that child abuse.
but that doesn't solve the issue.

I would put more emphasis on awareness and charity.
This is an issue in all countries, capitalism is not at fault, in fact capitalist countries don't even make the top 100 of under nourished countries, the U.S is doing pretty damn well.

So no, no one is literally starving to death in the U.S.
The U.S has everything right regards to food, it boils all the way down to human choice, then you know you've done it right.

EDIT: some graphing for scale of hunger to add context


Totals:




https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/79436/ap-072.pdf?v=42622

"malnutrition" is a tricky thing to measure, kids may be eating a lot of garbage food that is cheap and be well-fed, even over fed, but they will show up on the statistics because they aren't eating what is defined as a 'balanced' diet, I'd be considered food insecure because I eat out most every night, given how cheap and quick fast food is, I'm almost certain a lot of kids subsist on a diet exclusively of take-out.
Ergo: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/HealthyLiving/HealthyKids/ChildhoodObesity/Overweight-in-Children_UCM_304054_Article.jsp#.WS2DT2iGMdU

Quote:

One in three American kids and teens is overweight or obese. The prevalence of obesity in children more than tripled from 1971 to 2011




It doesn't paint the picture of mass-starvation tbh, it's certainly a problem that needs to be addressed however, no denying that.



Edited by Cinnamon (05/30/17 10:37 AM)


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Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361053 - 05/30/17 10:19 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Where's the starvation?







There are children in rural KY/TN/WV/NC counties, and probably LA and MS, that their only source of food comes from their public school.  The source of their starvation could be debated, whether it's shitty, drug/alcohol addicted parents who don't place their childs' needs ahead of their own, or you could blame the industries that long ago pulled their factories/warehouses from these places, or BIG-AG who has helped, in conjunction with the gov't, to lower the price of corn/soybeans/tobacco to prices so low many already poor people and/or poor people with small tracts of land can't make enough of a profit to justify the risk (if they can even get loans from financial institutions based on the risk.)


Regardless, you're naive and a fool to think there aren't children starving in the USA, especially during the summer when there is no school in session, and no public funding for summer programs for schools.



However, you probably think starving = starving to death, which is simply not the whole of it.


You're really quite the high-horse rider.  Why don't you leave your country and come see this shit for yourself.




I'm in the visa process to come see your alleged third world shit hole you oh-so hate, would you like to swap places and come here to enjoy our wonderfully inefficient, underfunded, understaffed, overworked public hospitals?
Where we also have kids starving and only get food at school?
As well as the highest rate of domestic violence of any country per 100,000?
Perhaps come enjoy our 90,000 teenage unemployment paradise?
Or our ridiculously high average Auckland housing/rent prices?

These are issues created by worthless government policies.

Quote:

BIG-AG who has helped, in conjunction with the gov't, to lower the price of corn/soybeans/tobacco to prices so low many already poor people and/or poor people with small tracts of land can't make enough of a profit to justify the risk




This meme, 'big-ag' is inherently big.
meaning more.
meaning more food.
meaning lower food prices.
Farmers selling their fields to Monsanto or other "BIG-AG" companies doesn't mean there will be less food, it means there will be more of it.

While I get that it sucks people can't make a commercial living off it as much as they used to, I don't think we need to grind the entire system to a halt to ensure these farmers can compete, it's much better to ensure the best most efficient, cheapest system wins out which will benefit millions of people.

And you're right, kids going hungry in the west in almost in every instance down to the parents, it's the same shit here.
However, some evil decadent free market capitalists have worked out how to feed these poor kids https://www.eatmylunch.nz/
It's actually pretty fucking delicious too, while the government and liberals are flopping around demanding higher taxes, smart people are working out solutions to such problems.

I'm not trying to pretend this is the solution to world hunger, but these systems are found everywhere and benefit millions of people, I'm trying to be the devils advocate, this forum is infested with leftism where the only solution is government and people only declare the USSR as "not that bad".

yes, I am a high-horse rider, I love the view from up here.






you're attributing lots of sentiments in your posts, towards me, that i have simply not shared.  maybe you are confusing me with someone else?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24361112 - 05/30/17 10:42 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

You're right.
I'm sorry.

You did call me a naive and a fool, as well as a high-horse rider, figured you wouldn't mind a equally attributed sentiments.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 29,703
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24361128 - 05/30/17 10:48 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What communist country are people starving in?

Qualifiers:

- has to be true communism
- nation has to be safe
- situation is happening currently


I can play this game too.




North Korea.




North Korea isnt safe. They live under a brutal dictatorship under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation.




It's pretty safe, so long as you abide by their obscene laws, hell they even permit tourism.
South Korea lives under the threat of nuclear annihilation also, would you consider it unsafe?




No, because the life expectanct rate is probabably double, and their violent crime rate about half, of that of the DPRK.

Lets not pretend North Korea is "pretty safe."


--------------------


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24361135 - 05/30/17 10:49 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Lets not pretend North Korea is "pretty safe."




Okay and if it were safe it would succeed, just like the south.

Edit: some actual 'known' info on N.K crime, for giggles.
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=S3B1BgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA122&pg=PA122&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


Edited by Cinnamon (05/30/17 10:52 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 29,703
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 3
    #24361152 - 05/30/17 10:53 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, now i can say the USSR would succeed if it werent under a brutal dictator, and were back to square 1.

I could say the same about anyone current capitalist failure, too.


--------------------


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24361161 - 05/30/17 10:57 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Ok, now i can say the USSR would succeed if it werent under a brutal dictator, and were back to square 1.

I could say the same about anyone current capitalist failure, too.




But it didn't succeed when it wasn't under a brutal dictator lol
So no, you've moved up several squares on the path to revelation.

Capitalism will succeed in safe environments with law and order
Communism will not succeed in safe environments with law and order, in fact it needs extreme law and order to barely function.


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Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24361189 - 05/30/17 11:14 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
You're right.
I'm sorry.

You did call me a naive and a fool, as well as a high-horse rider, figured you wouldn't mind a equally attributed sentiments.





you made a claim that is simply not true.  i was giving you the benefit of the doubt of being naive on the subject, as opposed to calling you HU (aka an outright liar and rabble-rouser).  and as far as the high-horse rider, you do tend to preach or, at the least, make large, sweeping claims.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/10/12
Posts: 865
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Last seen: 10 months, 9 days
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24361227 - 05/30/17 11:28 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
You're right.
I'm sorry.

You did call me a naive and a fool, as well as a high-horse rider, figured you wouldn't mind a equally attributed sentiments.





you made a claim that is simply not true.  i was giving you the benefit of the doubt of being naive on the subject, as opposed to calling you HU (aka an outright liar and rabble-rouser).  and as far as the high-horse rider, you do tend to preach or, at the least, make large, sweeping claims.




I'll accept that, however, I feel I've adequately backed up my statements in lieu of making baseless claims.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 29,703
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24361375 - 05/30/17 12:29 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Ok, now i can say the USSR would succeed if it werent under a brutal dictator, and were back to square 1.

I could say the same about anyone current capitalist failure, too.




But it didn't succeed when it wasn't under a brutal dictator lol
So no, you've moved up several squares on the path to revelation.

Capitalism will succeed in safe environments with law and order
Communism will not succeed in safe environments with law and order, in fact it needs extreme law and order to barely function.




Communism has never existed in a safe nation ruled by law and order.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 34,887
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24361399 - 05/30/17 12:37 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Ok, now i can say the USSR would succeed if it werent under a brutal dictator, and were back to square 1.

I could say the same about anyone current capitalist failure, too.




But it didn't succeed when it wasn't under a brutal dictator lol
So no, you've moved up several squares on the path to revelation.

Capitalism will succeed in safe environments with law and order
Communism will not succeed in safe environments with law and order, in fact it needs extreme law and order to barely function.




Communism has never existed in a safe nation ruled by law and order.




And it never will, it goes against human nature.


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