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InvisibleBlueMillionMiles
Heavily Metaled
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Registered: 03/12/16
Posts: 247
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24356988 - 05/28/17 05:30 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

:facepalm:


--------------------
Intellectual property & copyright laws took care of the privileged few,  while we just pay more for less shit, have no privacy, and can't scratch our ass without a follow-up targeted ad for over-priced hemorrhoid cream.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,149
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 43 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356995 - 05/28/17 05:33 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:



Exactly. So why are you pretending that socialism is an impediment to those things?




LOL WHAT?
you're the one pretending it ENABLED those things.
by insinuating because they got shit to space it couldn't have been that bad and was actually pretty good





That wasnt me, that was someone else.


--------------------

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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24357001 - 05/28/17 05:35 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:



Exactly. So why are you pretending that socialism is an impediment to those things?




LOL WHAT?
you're the one pretending it ENABLED those things.
by insinuating because they got shit to space it couldn't have been that bad and was actually pretty good




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:



Exactly. So why are you pretending that socialism is an impediment to those things?




LOL WHAT?
you're the one pretending it ENABLED those things.
by insinuating because they got shit to space it couldn't have been that bad and was actually pretty good





That wasnt me, that was someone else.



Capitalism isn't necessary for scientific progress thats my point. I like capitalism by the way but its not perfect it needs regulations and checks.

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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24357003 - 05/28/17 05:36 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Why would such a fantastic system collapse and GDP never budge?
Truly a mystery.



Who told you GDP never budged?  That's a lie:


And the Soviet Union didn't 'collapse'.  It converted to capitalism exactly in a way the United States advised them to, by giving the country's leadership everything, making them instant billionaires so they wouldn't resist the change.  It hurt the people a lot, but those in leadership positions didn't complain.





https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf



Say it with me:
UTOPIA!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_economic_expansion#Global_economic_climate

Wow a graph showing post war-growth, really bamboozled me Falcon,  really gives you the ole Hammer sickle tickle.

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InvisibleBlueMillionMiles
Heavily Metaled
Female

Registered: 03/12/16
Posts: 247
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24357007 - 05/28/17 05:37 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:[
Capitalism isn't necessary for scientific progress thats my point. I like capitalism by the way but its not perfect it needs regulations and checks.




Yaaasssss:thumbup:


--------------------
Intellectual property & copyright laws took care of the privileged few,  while we just pay more for less shit, have no privacy, and can't scratch our ass without a follow-up targeted ad for over-priced hemorrhoid cream.

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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24357012 - 05/28/17 05:38 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:



Exactly. So why are you pretending that socialism is an impediment to those things?




LOL WHAT?
you're the one pretending it ENABLED those things.
by insinuating because they got shit to space it couldn't have been that bad and was actually pretty good




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:



Exactly. So why are you pretending that socialism is an impediment to those things?




LOL WHAT?
you're the one pretending it ENABLED those things.
by insinuating because they got shit to space it couldn't have been that bad and was actually pretty good





That wasnt me, that was someone else.



Capitalism isn't necessary for scientific progress thats my point. I like capitalism by the way but its not perfect it needs regulations and checks.




Not necessary, but it allows a hell of a lot more of it in all areas, rather than direct government focused funding like in USSR, which explains how managed space while sucking shit at everything else, despite Falcons wet dream and intentional misrepresentation of a economic shit pit.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Posts: 32,557
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24357017 - 05/28/17 05:39 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
And Nazi Germany built the first space capable rocket.
National socialism truly is the solution!

Not to mention...
  • first rocket plane
  • first rocket program
  • first tailless aircraft
  • first assault rifle


Wow! a whole world of firsts! it's almost like science and technology doesn't care about political systems, only funding and brains!




Exactly. So why are you pretending that socialism is an impediment to those things?



LOL WHAT?
you're the one pretending it ENABLED those things.



I agree with you cinnamon.  Put enough funding and brains behind something, and it will work regardless of political system.  NO ONE said it works better under one system (actually I did say I think capitalism with Government oversight works best).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineTNK
Pleasures of Africa
I'm a teapot Unread Journal User Gallery


Registered: 01/30/10
Posts: 14,237
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24357048 - 05/28/17 05:54 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

TNK said:
Wait, considering the Soviet union didn't get invaded, what's wrong with a "slashed military budget"?




The Soviet Union was invaded.




Yeah, guess I should have been more specific. Post 1950's Soviet union.


--------------------
Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/09/12
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: TNK]
    #24357082 - 05/28/17 06:02 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

TNK said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

TNK said:
Wait, considering the Soviet union didn't get invaded, what's wrong with a "slashed military budget"?




The Soviet Union was invaded.




Yeah, guess I should have been more specific. Post 1950's Soviet union.








Certainly should have slashed their budget, fun seeing the final death-throes of the USSR, couldn't compete in a cold war.
but they want to go back

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,149
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24357117 - 05/28/17 06:16 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Just them?

Have you not seen the Americans cheering on a resurgence of the cold war?


--------------------

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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24357145 - 05/28/17 06:27 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Just them?

Have you not seen the Americans cheering on a resurgence of the cold war?




I'd rather work with Russia than against them.
This email and constant Russia-baiting isn't helping that.

But I'd rather work against North Korea than with them.

Hence the need for sustained budget and you don't know what's around the corner.
I don't think the budget needs to get bigger, per se, but it shouldn't be shrunk either.
I think the U.S military is too highly geared toward unconventional warfare like in Iraq/Afghanistan and should focus more on modernized combined arms fighting.

I also hope the U.S has a diplomatic plan for the competing factions in Iraq and Syria, I don't see the kurds willingly giving up their land to Iraq when ISIS falls and I don't see the Syrian government standing either.

Also given Turkeys new.... government policy...

there's reason to be anxious in 2017 and beyond.

Edited by Cinnamon (05/28/17 06:33 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24357193 - 05/28/17 06:45 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf



Say it with me:
UTOPIA!



I NEVER made the argument that the Soviet Union performed better than the US, or that it was a utopia.  I said "it wasn't that bad".  Perhaps now that you know you've lost that argument, you're changing the bar big time.

Your document actually shows things weren't all that bad in the Soviet Union.  Here are a few excerpts:

"Some elements of  the  USSR's industrial  and  defense sectors are among the most advanced in the world"
"In terms of overall nutrition, the diet now nearly matches that of the United States"
"the USSR  is the world's leading producer of several basic raw industrial products, such as pig iron, crude and rolled steel, certain types of machine tools, electric generators, and cement."
"The Soviet economy on average grew faster than the US economy from the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineTNK
Pleasures of Africa
I'm a teapot Unread Journal User Gallery


Registered: 01/30/10
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24357213 - 05/28/17 06:53 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Considering the state of some third world countries, especially at the time of 1950-1990's, the Soviet union sounds considerably more appealing.

Meaning, living in the Soviet union wasn't "that bad" when compared to Uganda or perhaps laos. :lol:


--------------------
Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24357221 - 05/28/17 06:56 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf



Say it with me:
UTOPIA!



I NEVER made the argument that the Soviet Union performed better than the US, or that it was a utopia.  I said "it wasn't that bad".  Perhaps now that you know you've lost that argument, you're changing the bar big time.

Your document actually shows things weren't all that bad in the Soviet Union.  Here are a few excerpts:

"Some elements of  the  USSR\industrial  and  defense sectors are among the most advanced in the world"
"In terms of overall nutrition, the diet now nearly matches that of the United States"
"the USSR  is t he world's leading producer of several basic raw industrial products, such as pig iron, crude and rolled steel, certain types of machine tools, electric generators, and cement."
"The Soviet economy on average grew faster than the US economy from the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s"




Grew until it collapsed, riding the wave of post-war boost.
doesn't make the soviet union 'good' or 'not that bad' it made it lucky to exist at the right time of a world war that gave them massive manufacturing ability.

the key is how it performs in peace time.
not good.

the same document also points how, even with more land, manpower and comparable climate in peak growing seasons, the USSR still couldn't match U.S agriculture.

Again, their defense budget was comparable to the U.S that was their national focus.

and yes the soviet union has access to more raw materials, big whoop.
Some of the poorest places in Africa survive on minerals.
The U.S got most of its titanium from them in the cold war.
Whoop-de-doo.

Even with all the materials in the world they couldn't produce anything of comparable quality, even their military equipment is shit.

Nothing you said makes the soviet union 'not bad'.

what you're trying to say is the USSR was GOOD, but that makes people cringe when you say that, so you say "not that bad" while trying to demonstrate how good it was, so you can say it's 'not that bad'.

Your point sucks and so did the USSR.

It sucked.
say it with me
SUCKED.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,643
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24357300 - 05/28/17 07:23 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:

Quote:


So work is NOT voluntary as you claimed.  Since people are forced to work under capitalism, shouldn't Government set rules around employment, like minimum wage, overtime pay, safety, etc.




it's entirely voluntary, there just happens to be consequences for choosing not to.






By that reasoning, slavery was voluntary...

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/voluntary
Quote:


voluntary
/ˈvɒləntərɪ; -trɪ/
adjective
1.
performed, undertaken, or brought about by free choice, willingly, or without being asked: a voluntary donation
2.
(of persons) serving or acting in a specified function of one's own accord and without compulsion or promise of remuneration: a voluntary social worker








yes forced labor is entirely the same as someone choosing not to labor./s




Forced labor?  How does one force someone to labor other than applying consequences for choosing not to work?


--------------------


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24357323 - 05/28/17 07:30 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:


Forced labor?  How does one force someone to labor other than applying consequences for choosing not to work?




Forcing someone to work or be punished.
is not the same as someone choosing not to work and suffering preventable consequence.

Seriously, I can't believe you need to be walked through how this is flawed thinking.

If you're hungry and choose not to eat the sandwich, you're prolonging your hunger by your own will.

If you have the sandwich taken away, you're being forced to suffer at the behest of others.

No one forces you to work.
The consequences are self-inflicted if you do not.

Slavery is forced work where the consequence is handed down by others.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24357336 - 05/28/17 07:36 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

so it is more of a philosophical difference than a functional one?

either way, the choices are

1) work

or

2) face consequences.

in any event, i never said that i believed slavery to be voluntary.  I did say that your line of reasoning would seem to indicate that you do.  My only objection was to your use of the phrase "entirely voluntary".


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,149
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24357347 - 05/28/17 07:43 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Just them?

Have you not seen the Americans cheering on a resurgence of the cold war?




I'd rather work with Russia than against them.
This email and constant Russia-baiting isn't helping that.

But I'd rather work against North Korea than with them.

Hence the need for sustained budget and you don't know what's around the corner.
I don't think the budget needs to get bigger, per se, but it shouldn't be shrunk either.
I think the U.S military is too highly geared toward unconventional warfare like in Iraq/Afghanistan and should focus more on modernized combined arms fighting.

I also hope the U.S has a diplomatic plan for the competing factions in Iraq and Syria, I don't see the kurds willingly giving up their land to Iraq when ISIS falls and I don't see the Syrian government standing either.

Also given Turkeys new.... government policy...

there's reason to be anxious in 2017 and beyond.




I agree with nearly everything here.

I think if we stopped overthrowing stable governments in the middle east, not only would that give us less reason to be anxious but it could free up hundreds of billions of federal dollars for things like healthcare and education and infrastructure.


--------------------

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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24357373 - 05/28/17 07:52 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
so it is more of a philosophical difference than a functional one?

either way, the choices are

1) work

or

2) face consequences.

in any event, i never said that i believed slavery to be voluntary.  I did say that your line of reasoning would seem to indicate that you do.  My only objection was to your use of the phrase "entirely voluntary".





It's still entirely voluntary.

the consequence of not working influences most people toward working, which brings many rewards.
People are free to make the choice of not working, hence unemployment welfare.

I sympathize with the younger people, 16-25 who find it extremely difficult to get any foot on the employment ladder, despite their willingness to work.
I don't sympathize with currently employed people on minimum wage demanding more from it, which locks younger people out of it all together, particularly young black employment.

Quote:

Today black teen unemployment is more than 40 percent; nearly double that for white teens. In 2007, prior to the Great Recession, the black teen unemployment rate was about 29 percent. There is no doubt the increase in the federal minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.25 per hour contributed to the higher unemployment rate. If Congress passes a new minimum wage law that makes it illegal for employers to pay less than $9 per hour, and for workers to accept less than that amount, we can expect further erosion of the market for unskilled workers, especially black teens.  - Joseph Sabia, Richard Burkhauser, and Benjamin Hansen



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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,643
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24357385 - 05/28/17 07:56 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
so it is more of a philosophical difference than a functional one?

either way, the choices are

1) work

or

2) face consequences.

in any event, i never said that i believed slavery to be voluntary.  I did say that your line of reasoning would seem to indicate that you do.  My only objection was to your use of the phrase "entirely voluntary".





It's still entirely voluntary.

the consequence of not working influences most people toward working, which brings many rewards.
People are free to make the choice of not working, hence unemployment welfare.

I sympathize with the younger people, 16-25 who find it extremely difficult to get any foot on the employment ladder, despite their willingness to work.
I don't sympathize with currently employed people on minimum wage demanding more from it, which locks younger people out of it all together, particularly young black employment.

Quote:

Today black teen unemployment is more than 40 percent; nearly double that for white teens. In 2007, prior to the Great Recession, the black teen unemployment rate was about 29 percent. There is no doubt the increase in the federal minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.25 per hour contributed to the higher unemployment rate. If Congress passes a new minimum wage law that makes it illegal for employers to pay less than $9 per hour, and for workers to accept less than that amount, we can expect further erosion of the market for unskilled workers, especially black teens.  - Joseph Sabia, Richard Burkhauser, and Benjamin Hansen







So now you're saying that there are people who don't work, and that it is not voluntary?
I thought you said working or not was "entirely voluntary".


--------------------


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