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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24364473 - 05/31/17 09:47 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
News from the Utopia
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/05/too-much-pressure-on-mental-health-services-auditor-general.html

Come on guys, it's great, give it a go!



Ya, no thanks to New Zealand care.  It was only rated #41 in the world.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24368131 - 06/01/17 04:30 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Circular.
Circular.
Circular.


This is a meme falcon, gimme my 5 shrooms and we'll be done with this nonsense.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24368431 - 06/01/17 06:27 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular.
Circular.
Circular.

This is a meme falcon, gimme my 5 shrooms and we'll be done with this nonsense.



Actually, your last post was FINALLY non-circular.  The pitt.edu report was the first piece of evidence you provided that supported your point of view that Russia sucked after Stalin.

Like I already said, it's an extremely weak report, as it doesn't explain how/why it arrived at its conclusions, but at least its conclusions align with yours, so I'll give you five shrooms if you provide me a link to where you had previously presented that report.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24368813 - 06/01/17 08:54 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Circular.
Circular.
Circular.

This is a meme falcon, gimme my 5 shrooms and we'll be done with this nonsense.



Actually, your last post was FINALLY non-circular.  The pitt.edu report was the first piece of evidence you provided that supported your point of view that Russia sucked after Stalin.

Like I already said, it's an extremely weak report, as it doesn't explain how/why it arrived at its conclusions, but at least its conclusions align with yours, so I'll give you five shrooms if you provide me a link to where you had previously presented that report.




Quote:

Ok, I'll make you another deal.  Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided.  One that doesn't merely show the US was better (I agreed with that a LONG time ago), but that Soviet communism actually sucked after Stalin.

If you provide an example you gave, I'll give you five shrooms.  If you fail to provide an example, you're clearly lying





No, we don't change the deal.

For information on the sucky healthcare housing and all-things starchy food related see: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf

For general 'status' report of the USSR AFTER STALIN that is, communism AFTER Stalin, according to research funded by National Council for Soviet Studies and East European research...
See: https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1984-629-2-Johnson.pdf

For further information on Soviet housing, during 1950 and through to 1970, see: https://www.jstor.org/stable/151234?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents



For more info on how the poor health system impacted housing and the workforce, notably production rates.
see: https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=79haNx8rZBQC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Henry+W.+Morton+USSR&source=bl&ots=bi724J4BVI&sig=pOKTnPdpMS6oEKID3uf2GarX638&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-rKOd7p3UAhVDspQKHeRSAUIQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=Henry%20W.%20Morton%20USSR&f=false



All boiling down to USSR sucked with and without Stalin, nothing was rosy red, except maybe the communal bathrooms in the communal apartments of which you shared with strangers.

that you CAN learn from NZ in which free housing is provided, though it leads to nasty ghetto like areas and general poverty, I consider myself well versed in that aspect, thus I sympathize with our Soviet friends and black youth in the U.S.


What did we learn? it sucked hardest with Stalin, scoring a 100/100 on the suck-o-meter and about a 80/100 after Stalin.
Not really something you should be out advocating for, not that you are, but some people look at 'free housing, free healthcare, free food' and think that's all there is to it, I wouldn't assume that of you, of course.

5.
shrooms.
please.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24369079 - 06/01/17 10:27 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Your last post was FINALLY non-circular.  The pitt.edu report was the first piece of evidence you provided that supported your point of view that Russia sucked after Stalin.

Like I already said, it's an extremely weak report, as it doesn't explain how/why it arrived at its conclusions, but at least its conclusions align with yours, so I'll give you five shrooms if you provide me a link to where you had previously presented that report.




Quote:

Ok, I'll make you another deal.  Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided.  One that doesn't merely show the US was better (I agreed with that a LONG time ago), but that Soviet communism actually sucked after Stalin.

If you provide an example you gave, I'll give you five shrooms.  If you fail to provide an example, you're clearly lying




No, we don't change the deal.



I didn't change the deal.  You kept insisting you had provided examples, and I insisted you didn't, and offered five shrooms if you "Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided"

When you couldn't find an example, you did more research and posted the pitt.edu report, which is what I had been asking for all along. 

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
For information on the sucky healthcare housing and all-things starchy food related see: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf



We already discussed that and how you misrepresented what the report actually said.  I even pulled out excerpts to show you were lying about it.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
For general 'status' report of the USSR AFTER STALIN that is, communism AFTER Stalin, according to research funded by National Council for Soviet Studies and East European research...
See: https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1984-629-2-Johnson.pdf

For further information on Soviet housing, during 1950 and through to 1970, see: https://www.jstor.org/stable/151234?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents



For more info on how the poor health system impacted housing and the workforce, notably production rates.
see: https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=79haNx8rZBQC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Henry+W.+Morton+USSR&source=bl&ots=bi724J4BVI&sig=pOKTnPdpMS6oEKID3uf2GarX638&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-rKOd7p3UAhVDspQKHeRSAUIQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=Henry%20W.%20Morton%20USSR&f=false



Did you post these before or after I offered five shrooms?  If it was before my offer then I'll give you 5 shrooms.  If it was after, then it didn't meet the terms of my offer.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24369115 - 06/01/17 10:44 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, I'll make you a deal. Show me where the CIA report says people are limited to "high-starch food, some bread, some potato maybe some soup". Show me where it says "if you complain, off to the gulag". Show me where it says people "stand in this long ass line in the cold and wait for food". If you do, I'll give you a five shroom rating. If you can't you're clearly just lying. I'll even help you by pointing you to the "DIET" section on page 62 of the CIA report:


 

You honestly couldn't infer from that what was sarcastic?


Quote:

You said Soviet healthcare sucks, but failed to show the quality was that bad.




Quote:

"Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided"



https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24360798#24360798

I showed you an example of the healthcare sucking in the report listed above, I even isolated the exact text.
That is, by definition, something 'sucking' AFTER Stalin.
I have also further included MORE sucky things AFTER Stalin, including
  • Food lines
  • Housing
  • Poor GDP
  • Low labor productivity
  • Inefficient farm production, despite more labor and land
  • Limited food access, aside from basic staple foods due to lack of consumer sector investment

Shrooms.
please.

You're not good with deals, not very trust worthy, starting to feel a bit ripped off, like I made a deal with Trump.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24369218 - 06/01/17 11:26 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, I'll make you a deal. Show me where the CIA report says people are limited to "high-starch food, some bread, some potato maybe some soup". Show me where it says "if you complain, off to the gulag". Show me where it says people "stand in this long ass line in the cold and wait for food". If you do, I'll give you a five shroom rating. If you can't you're clearly just lying. I'll even help you by pointing you to the "DIET" section on page 62 of the CIA report:


 

You honestly couldn't infer from that what was sarcastic?



If it was sarcasm, then it didn't prove your point, did it?

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You said Soviet healthcare sucks, but failed to show the quality was that bad.

Quote:

"Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided"



https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000497165.pdf

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24360798#24360798

I showed you an example of the healthcare sucking in the report listed above, I even isolated the exact text.
That is, by definition, something 'sucking' AFTER Stalin.



Here's what your report said about healthcare:

"Although the Soviet health care system is extensive (37 physicians per 10,000 compared with 19 per 10,000 in the United States) and available to everyone free of charge, the quality of service is uneven.  The general public is served by a system of hospitals and outpatient polyclinics that provide a relatively low standard of care.  According to several observers and emigres, drugs are difficult to find, hospitals are overcrowded and dirty, and a patient's family must often bring food from home to supplement the hospital diet."

So more physicians than the US, crowded hospitals similar to what we see in the US, and families often bring patients food so they don't have to eat crappy hospital food.  Again, that's not that bad.


Since we're not seeing eye to eye, let's ask people reading this how they feel.  I'll do what they feel is right.


Did Cinnamon meet the terms of Falcon's offer?
You may choose only one
Yes, he provided evidence that Russia was worse than 'not that bad' when the bet was made. Give him 5 shrooms.
No, he provided no evidence that Russia was worse than 'not that bad' until after the bet was made. Don't give him 5 shrooms.


Votes accepted from (06/01/17 11:23 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24369250 - 06/01/17 11:38 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Poll is useless.
this is a forum dominated by left-wing supporters, you'd be insane to think they find the soviet union 'sucky' because they think like you do:
Free healthcare.
Free food
Free housing
lots of jobs

Why on fucking earth would they vote in a poll about evidence going against all of that?


Quote:

So more physicians than the US, crowded hospitals similar to what we see in the US, and families often bring patients food so they don't have to eat crappy hospital food.  Again, that's not that bad.




"low standard of care"

Not that bad?
fuck me side ways, they'd literally have to be executing the disabled for it to tip over your measure of 'not that bad'.

and now you're comparing to the U.S
which I was asked not to do, because apparently everyone was doing poorly compared to the U.S at the time, so I wasn't permitted to use it as a marker.

This is fucking retarded lol


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24369296 - 06/01/17 11:52 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Poll is useless.
this is a forum dominated by left-wing supporters, you'd be insane to think they find the soviet union 'sucky' because they think like you do:
Free healthcare.
Free food
Free housing
lots of jobs

Why on fucking earth would they vote in a poll about evidence going against all of that?



There is NO evidence against ANY of that.  :facepalm:

And I've agreed that the US was better; my whole point was that communism wasn't that bad.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
"low standard of care"

Not that bad?



No, not "low standard of care".  "relatively low standard of care".  Meaning not as good as the US.  You can only make your point by lying.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
and now you're comparing to the U.S
which I was asked not to do, because apparently everyone was doing poorly compared to the U.S at the time, so I wasn't permitted to use it as a marker.

This is fucking retarded lol



You were permitted to use it as a marker.  And I agreed that Russia wasn't as good as the US.  I simply noted that Russia was better than many other capitalist countries, that's all.  Stop making things up.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24369335 - 06/02/17 12:03 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

You're insane.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24369400 - 06/02/17 12:25 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Ok, I'll make you a deal. Show me where the CIA report says people are limited to "high-starch food, some bread, some potato maybe some soup". Show me where it says "if you complain, off to the gulag". Show me where it says people "stand in this long ass line in the cold and wait for food". If you do, I'll give you a five shroom rating. If you can't you're clearly just lying. I'll even help you by pointing you to the "DIET" section on page 62 of the CIA report:


 

You honestly couldn't infer from that what was sarcastic?







Websterisms at their finest


:raisemyglass:


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24373770 - 06/03/17 03:22 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Shrooms.
please.

You're not good with deals, not very trust worthy, starting to feel a bit ripped off, like I made a deal with Trump.



Since we're not seeing eye to eye, let's ask people reading this how they feel.  I'll do what they feel is right.



The final poll after two days shows that 5 people feel you didn't make your case that Russia sucked after Stalin, 0 felt you did.  So you're not getting ripped off, even though Trump is ripping us off.  :shrug:

There's no question that US capitalism was better, but communism after Stalin wasn't all that bad.  And that's based primarily on talking to people who grew up in the Soviet Union and who now live in California today, rather than basing it on US propaganda.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleCyrus19
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24373786 - 06/03/17 03:28 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Shrooms.
please.

You're not good with deals, not very trust worthy, starting to feel a bit ripped off, like I made a deal with Trump.



Since we're not seeing eye to eye, let's ask people reading this how they feel.  I'll do what they feel is right.



The final poll after two days shows that 5 people feel you didn't make your case that Russia sucked after Stalin, 0 felt you did.  So you're not getting ripped off, even though Trump is ripping us off.  :shrug:

There's no question that US capitalism was better, but communism after Stalin wasn't all that bad.  And that's based primarily on talking to people who grew up in the Soviet Union and who now live in California today, rather than basing it on US propaganda.



Yep there is a quite a large russian immigrant community in my city. I've talked with them about it they said it was fine. Sure there weren't 499 different kinds of cereal but people survived just fine. Arguably the Russian education system is also world class they did beat the US into space after all and still to this day are a leader in that field.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24375794 - 06/04/17 09:11 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Amazing, a poll on a left-wing dominated forum turned out predictably.
I wonder if a poll of California would turn out majority democrat.

Russia sucked after Stalin, acknowledge it or not, it doesn't change the evidence.


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InvisibleCyrus19
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24375841 - 06/04/17 09:44 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Amazing, a poll on a left-wing dominated forum turned out predictably.
I wonder if a poll of California would turn out majority democrat.

Russia sucked after Stalin, acknowledge it or not, it doesn't change the evidence.




So all the people I've talked to are lying?


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24375863 - 06/04/17 09:55 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

What even is, anecdotal evidence?
There's hard-core Juche people in North Korea, if you talked to them would you tell me North Korea 'is not that bad' ?


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InvisibleCyrus19
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Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24375872 - 06/04/17 09:59 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
What even is, anecdotal evidence?
There's hard-core Juche people in North Korea, if you talked to them would you tell me North Korea 'is not that bad' ?



Well the US has a vested interest in making the USSR look bad because there economic system is antithetical to our way of life. I'm not saying government control of the economy was good just that it was not like Mordor as US propoganda portrays it as. If given a choice I would want to to live in the US with some minor changes.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19] * 3
    #24375911 - 06/04/17 10:15 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah but i dont have the requisite gray matter to see that much gray area.

US good. USSR bad. Capitalism good. Communism bad. Why does it need to be any more nuanced than that?


--------------------


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InvisibleCyrus19
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24375921 - 06/04/17 10:17 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Yeah but i dont have the requisite gray matter to see that much gray area.

US good. USSR bad. Capitalism good. Communism bad. Why does it need to be any more nuanced than that?



LOL yes that is the typical american viewpoint


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24375936 - 06/04/17 10:24 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

And I never once looked at propaganda.
I looked at the fact of reality.
it sucked, sucked harder than the U.S and sucked in general, as the evidence suggests.

I'm not insinuating it was a life or death struggle day in day out, not insinuating it was the worst place on earth.
Just that it sucked and its model is not one people should consider following or implementing because of some perceived injustice in their own country, like the U.S.

I'm sure people have fond memories of the time, I do of my childhood ghetto and friends that didn't mean it was all good, some shit sucked, some shit didn't, if you asked me I'd say it was "fine", people obviously remember good things rather than bad things.


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