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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24362044 - 05/30/17 01:44 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..




Well, insurance companies take 20% of the money to "manage costs", how effective have they been the past 30 years?  A disaster.

What incentive do insurance companies have to control costs?  None, in fact they need costs to go higher to see any growth themselves.




So insurance companies are the problem, not healthcare x2



When profit gets involved in the healthcare industry normal people suffer so insurance companies can get higher profits. A universal single payer system would prevent these abuses of power. This is a fine example of why everything should not be privatized.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24362046 - 05/30/17 01:45 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
So insurance companies are the problem, not healthcare x2



That's why we should replace private insurance with a Single Payer plan.  (x2)


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24362053 - 05/30/17 01:47 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
So insurance companies are the problem, not healthcare x2



That's why we should replace private insurance with a Single Payer plan.  (x2)



I think Cinnamon also missed the fact the US is ranked 37 in healthcare.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24362062 - 05/30/17 01:48 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:


For the third time "everyone had free housing, free education, free healthcare, a job, plenty of food, etc."




Round and round we go.



Exactly.

"Here's how it's good, how does it suck?"
"It sucked under Stalin"
"Can you provide any examples of how communism was really bad after Stalin?
"Here's a sarcastic but totally made up reply!"
"But can you provide any real examples"
"Here's an example how it sucked under Stalin"
But can you provide any examples of how communism was really bad after Stalin?
repeat, repeat, repeat...

I'll ask again, "can you provide any non sarcastic real examples of how it sucked after Stalin???  :popcorn:"

Please stop going in circles and just answer the question.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
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Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24362130 - 05/30/17 02:04 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Sure, let's do some single-payer.
Can you make it affordable?
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article151960182.html

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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24362138 - 05/30/17 02:04 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Asked and answered previously.

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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 4 hours, 32 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24362159 - 05/30/17 02:09 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Soooo the insurance companies are the problem.. not the healthcare..




Well, insurance companies take 20% of the money to "manage costs", how effective have they been the past 30 years?  A disaster.

What incentive do insurance companies have to control costs?  None, in fact they need costs to go higher to see any growth themselves.




So insurance companies are the problem, not healthcare x2




They're a major part of the problem, if they could actually reduce costs and make the system more efficient they could serve a purpose, but that doesn't happen for obvious reasons.

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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24362160 - 05/30/17 02:10 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Sure, let's do some single-payer.
Can you make it affordable?
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article151960182.html




Since US healthcare is less efficient and effective we spend more this doesn't mean we couldn't do single payer just that we need to restructure the current system so its more effective and possibly spend less on the military so we can have it without raising taxes.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,160
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 33 minutes
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: qman] * 5
    #24362166 - 05/30/17 02:11 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Lets dispense with the notion that the free market doesnt know what its doing. The free market knows exactly what its doing.


--------------------

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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 3
    #24362172 - 05/30/17 02:12 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Lets dispense with the notion that the free market doesnt know what its doing. The free market knows exactly what its doing.



Road to serfdom

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OfflineCinnamon
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Registered: 03/09/12
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24362177 - 05/30/17 02:13 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
So insurance companies are the problem, not healthcare x2



That's why we should replace private insurance with a Single Payer plan.  (x2)



I think Cinnamon also missed the fact the US is ranked 37 in healthcare.




Quote:

The current proposals for U.S. health care reform focus mostly on extending insurance coverage, decreasing the growth of costs through improved efficiency, and expanding prevention and wellness programs. The policy debate has been overwhelmingly centered on the first two of these elements. Achieving universal insurance coverage in the United States would protect households against undue financial burdens at the same time that it was saving an estimated 18,000 to 44,000 lives.4,5 However, narrowing the gap in health outcomes between the United States and other high-income countries or even slowing its descent in the rankings would require much more than insurance expansion. Given the vast number of preventable deaths associated with smoking (465,000 per year), hypertension (395,000), obesity (216,000), physical inactivity (191,000), high blood glucose levels (190,000), high levels of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (113,000), and other dietary risk factors, there are huge opportunities to enact policies that could make a substantial difference in health system performance ā€” and in the population's health.4 More investments that are targeted at promoting proven strategies ā€” including tobacco taxation and smoking-cessation programs, screening and treatment for high cholesterol and blood pressure, banning of trans fat, creating incentives for people to engage in physical activity, and subsidizing the cost of consumption of nāˆ’3 fatty acids ā€” could dramatically reduce mortality and enhance the performance of the U.S. health care system. - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064#t=article




U.S Is the 2nd fattest country on earth, why are you surprised healthier European countries are healthier thus not burdening their healthcare
system?


Edited by Cinnamon (05/30/17 02:17 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24362318 - 05/30/17 02:42 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'll ask again, "can you provide any non sarcastic real examples of how it sucked after Stalin???  :popcorn:"

Please stop going in circles and just answer the question.



Asked and answered previously.



No, it wasn't answered.  You gave a response that was disproven, and then claimed your response was 'sarcasm'.  You said "say it with me SUCKED.", but never gave a real reason it sucked other than how it sucked under Stalin.

Ok, I'll make you another deal.  Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided.  One that doesn't merely show the US was better (I agreed with that a LONG time ago), but that Soviet communism actually sucked after Stalin.

If you provide an example you gave, I'll give you five shrooms.  If you fail to provide an example, you're clearly lying, just like you were the first time I offered you five shrooms.

GO.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24362335 - 05/30/17 02:47 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Sure, let's do some single-payer.
Can you make it affordable?
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article151960182.html



Nothing in your article says healthcare costs would go up as a result of Single Payer.  Just that it shifts the expenses from individuals to taxes.  The net cost is the same or better.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 3
    #24362517 - 05/30/17 03:41 PM (7 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
You think universal healthcare will fix ANYTHING other than the access to it?
I mean you're more than welcome to come experience it here, assuming you can get a bed and a doctor given the fact they're on strike all the time.
and assuming you don't die in the waiting room or while waiting months for the procedure.</font></font>



Interestingly, healthcare in New Zealand was ranked #41, even behind the United States at #37.  No wonder Cinnamon hates it.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24364011 - 05/31/17 01:24 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
You think universal healthcare will fix ANYTHING other than the access to it?
I mean you're more than welcome to come experience it here, assuming you can get a bed and a doctor given the fact they're on strike all the time.
and assuming you don't die in the waiting room or while waiting months for the procedure.</font></font>



Interestingly, healthcare in New Zealand was ranked #41, even behind the United States at #37.  No wonder Cinnamon hates it.  :shrug:




And it's universal.
a Free utopia.

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OfflineTNK
Pleasures of Africa
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24364018 - 05/31/17 01:26 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Sounds like you guys just did it wrong.

:shrug:


--------------------
Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: TNK]
    #24364020 - 05/31/17 01:28 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

:awesomenod:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineCinnamon
Stranger


Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
Loc: Nelson Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24364035 - 05/31/17 01:44 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'll ask again, "can you provide any non sarcastic real examples of how it sucked after Stalin???  :popcorn:"

Please stop going in circles and just answer the question.



Asked and answered previously.



No, it wasn't answered.  You gave a response that was disproven, and then claimed your response was 'sarcasm'.  You said "say it with me SUCKED.", but never gave a real reason it sucked other than how it sucked under Stalin.

Ok, I'll make you another deal.  Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided.  One that doesn't merely show the US was better (I agreed with that a LONG time ago), but that Soviet communism actually sucked after Stalin.

If you provide an example you gave, I'll give you five shrooms.  If you fail to provide an example, you're clearly lying, just like you were the first time I offered you five shrooms.

GO.












https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1984-629-2-Johnson.pdf

Will you be changing the definition of sucked now?

people tout how good free healthcare is until they actually have to use it.

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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24364057 - 05/31/17 02:08 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24364467 - 05/31/17 07:45 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, I'll make you another deal.  Tell me specifically what non sarcastic real example of how things sucked after Stalin you already provided.  One that doesn't merely show the US was better (I agreed with that a LONG time ago), but that Soviet communism actually sucked after Stalin.

If you provide an example you gave, I'll give you five shrooms.  If you fail to provide an example, you're clearly lying, just like you were the first time I offered you five shrooms.

GO.












https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1984-629-2-Johnson.pdf

Will you be changing the definition of sucked now?

people tout how good free healthcare is until they actually have to use it.



Great, this new pitt.edu report appears to support your position.  That's what I've been asking for this whole time.  Did you previously provide this?  If so, provide a link to your original post and I'll give you five shrooms.

The report says the Soviet standard of living was one-third the American level, and somewhat less than half the level of France and West Germany, but it doesn't say how they arrived at that figure.  Did they factor in free housing, free healthcare, free education, and the like?  Did they factor in that public transportation was so good, that few people required a car?  Do they factor in that consumer goods are far more affordable?  I don't know, the data just isn't there; only the conclusions.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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