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Offlinelonestar2004
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Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark
    #8800536 - 08/20/08 10:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yesterday, all the signs pointed to the fact that Biden was emerging Obama’s likely VP pick -- until the Delaware senator quickly seemed to dash that speculation yesterday. “You guys have better things to do,” Biden told the reporters staking him out, as he was leaving his home in Delaware to play golf. "I'm not the guy."


Many took that to mean, he was not the pick. Turns out that wasn't what Biden meant.


A Biden source told us not to read too much into his "I’m-not-the-guy" statement, saying he was pretending not to be Biden -- rather than stating he wasn’t going to be Obama’s VP.


Biden pretending not to be himself! :rofl2:  PLEASE OBAMA PICK BIDEN TO BE YOUR RUNNING MATE!







http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/20/1277510.aspx


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8801925 - 08/20/08 05:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think we're gonna get that lucky.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8805267 - 08/21/08 11:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Obama is dumb enough to pick him.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8806599 - 08/21/08 04:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There is no substance here.

Would someone be as stupid as McCain's VP take the nomination, after his telling half the nation he wants Cindy's tits out in front of a bunch of bikers?

Doesn't sound like what McCain said, does it? That's because it's not. But that's what he meant? Where is the named informant? Anybody can said "close associate" or "confidential informant", and write what they please.






~Monk


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: numonkei]
    #8808883 - 08/21/08 11:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

numonkei said:
Would someone be as stupid as McCain's VP take the nomination, after his telling half the nation he wants Cindy's tits out in front of a bunch of bikers?

Doesn't sound like what McCain said, does it? That's because it's not. But that's what he meant? Where is the named informant? Anybody can said "close associate" or "confidential informant", and write what they please. 




What are you talking about? :confused:


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8813701 - 08/22/08 11:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A Biden source told us not to read too much into his "I’m-not-the-guy" statement, saying he was pretending not to be Biden -- rather than stating he wasn’t going to be Obama’s VP.




Source please. ??


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineOjom
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zorbman]
    #8814027 - 08/23/08 12:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Biden apparently is the guy, and thats unfortunate in my opinion.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Ojom]
    #8814329 - 08/23/08 03:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Biden apparently is the guy, and thats unfortunate in my opinion.

Good to know that he is getting us used to lies... typical of established politicians.  It is only unfortunate if you are a Great Prophet Obama supporter.  For those of us that can't stand socialism, and don't want to see Obama in office, Biden was the perfect pick.  Now, if only McCain can make the same kind of mistake... but, even then, I doubt we would get a third party candidate in office.


--------------------
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8814345 - 08/23/08 04:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

this is gonna be fun!:grin:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8814606 - 08/23/08 07:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Biden apparently is the guy, and thats unfortunate in my opinion.

Good to know that he is getting us used to lies... typical of established politicians.  It is only unfortunate if you are a Great Prophet Obama supporter.  For those of us that can't stand socialism, and don't want to see Obama in office, Biden was the perfect pick.  Now, if only McCain can make the same kind of mistake... but, even then, I doubt we would get a third party candidate in office.



First of all socialism has bad rap, when it actually isnt that bad. Second of all if any type of socialism would be involved, im sure it would have a heavy "hippie" influence.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8817226 - 08/23/08 06:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Jack Albertson said:
First of all socialism has bad rap




anything that involves me paying someone elses way through life
without my consent or active involvement isn't good, socialism
has a bad rap for a reason, it doesnt let those that need to die
do so it's government sponsored charity for the lazy


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8817488 - 08/23/08 07:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Jack Albertson said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> Biden apparently is the guy, and thats unfortunate in my opinion.

Good to know that he is getting us used to lies... typical of established politicians.  It is only unfortunate if you are a Great Prophet Obama supporter.  For those of us that can't stand socialism, and don't want to see Obama in office, Biden was the perfect pick.  Now, if only McCain can make the same kind of mistake... but, even then, I doubt we would get a third party candidate in office.



First of all socialism has bad rap, when it actually isnt that bad. Second of all if any type of socialism would be involved, im sure it would have a heavy "hippie" influence.





How is it not bad?

What are you talking about?


You think its good to take from people and give to the government that then decides whether any particular person deserves money?  Bunch of social programs that are supported through taking from people that may or may not use them and giving them to the program...



This is good?  Or what is the good you were refering to?


Maybe socialism has a bad rap because people are never able to spend money wisely and fairly with respect to those whos money it was, when they have no reason to do so.

Maybe socialism has a bad rap because it is stealing and has never worked as efficiently as the free market?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8817491 - 08/23/08 07:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

it doesnt let those that need to die do so



Yeah if people can't afford to get a kidney transplant then they obviously need to die! Money is more important than life itself!


--------------------
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                                                part of the world belongs to me
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8818890 - 08/24/08 04:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Yeah if people can't afford to get a kidney transplant then they obviously need to die!

Nice appeal to emotion.  :rolleyes:


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8818949 - 08/24/08 05:22 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

it doesnt let those that need to die do so



Yeah if people can't afford to get a kidney transplant then they obviously need to die! Money is more important than life itself!





Presuming your directing that at criticisms of socialism, and not solely at prisoner, I think your comment si silly.


1.  Why do they need to do anything?  They either get the transplant or they don't, because someone doesn't care to provide them with money to fund the operation doesn't mean they think they should die.
2.  Why is the providing of the kidney transplant funds limited to the government, and why must the patient die if he hasn't the money? 

Just like tutition rates skyrocket with more available financial aid (increasing the amount of money available to students, poor financial folks generally) providing greater funds for medical care raises the price of medical care.  The only problem comes in if you aren't in the club that gets the excess funds (and sometimes even if you are like loans). 

Before state-run socialist medical programs prices were lower for self-pays and the amount of charity hospitals was much larger.

Now, you have to qualify for public assitance or have the cash (for artificially increased prices fueled by a glut of money from private, public funding as well as artifical limitations on who can practice medicine) or you go untreated.




If we had a free market medical field who's only rule was to require full disclosure of procedures, risks, rewards, and the education of the doctor and evidence for the efficacy of the procedure/hospital/doc, you'd see prices plummet and access improve.


Now we pay to the government who decides what they want to pay and for whom they'll pay it.  And they decide, with substantial lobbying by the docs, who gets to practice medicine or even go to medical school, by limiting new schools.


If we simply went to a free market and let any new medical school/residency open that could pass well-defined criteria for licensure, we'd see prices plummet.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: johnm214]
    #8818967 - 08/24/08 05:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

But if prices plummeted, so would the quality. Hospitals would be constantly trying to cut corners just so they can undercut the competition or increase their profits. Competition can, and does, lower prices, but that can come with hidden costs.

Quote:

They either get the transplant or they don't, because someone doesn't care to provide them with money to fund the operation doesn't mean they think they should die.


Agreed. But I also think that people shouldn't die just because they can't afford an operation. I'm happy for my tax money to go towards funding necessary surgery for others; I'd only just spend it on drugs anyway. And it's good to know that if I get really sick one day I can go to hospital and never get asked for a credit card.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8819114 - 08/24/08 07:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But if prices plummeted, so would the quality. Hospitals would be constantly trying to cut corners just so they can undercut the competition or increase their profits. Competition can, and does, lower prices, but that can come with hidden costs.



And it's good to know that if I get really sick one day I can go to hospital and never get asked for a credit card.




I don't see why you need to cut quality to cut prices.

Physicians get paid alot.  Medical device manufacturers charge a lot.  Why not test them in the free market and see if they are worth what they charge?  I happen to think docs are way overpriced for many services... If I want prozac I pay 100 bucks min to get an initial appointment with someone for something I should be able to buy myself for a couple of bucks.

I'm not against physicians making a lot of money, I"m against people being gouged cuz the market is artificially limited and demand is artificially high, in some areas, due to regulation.

And the problem of cutting corners is easily remedied after the fact with lawsuits, and a great deal of premption from the threat as well.

Further, basic principles of fair advertising, contracts, would require docs and device manufacturers to provide extensive data on their history, methods, what they will be doing, what they have done, et cet enforced with lawsuits for noncompliance/fraud.

I see no reason why we must have government do essentially the same quality assurance work, though much more poorly, that private consumers could do on their own- and to which they have a right to anyways, unlike the gov't.



As an aside, what is the deal w/ UK/ Aus folk saying stuff like:  "I'm going to university" or "I'm going to hospital"

Seems weird... In US, people would say "I'm going to the university" or "I'm going to the hospital"  Kinda funny sounding in the reverse, lol


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8819176 - 08/24/08 08:11 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

it doesnt let those that need to die do so



Yeah if people can't afford to get a kidney transplant then they obviously need to die! Money is more important than life itself!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialysis

Medicare is a health insurance program for people age 65 or older, people under age 65 with certain disabilities, and people of all ages with end stage renal disease.


--------------------
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Edited by Chemy (08/24/08 12:25 PM)


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Chemy]
    #8819648 - 08/24/08 11:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

my mother is on dialysis and you can only do it for so long.


Seuss-See brazil.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8819691 - 08/24/08 11:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Biden apparently is the guy, and thats unfortunate in my opinion.

Good to know that he is getting us used to lies... typical of established politicians.  It is only unfortunate if you are a Great Prophet Obama supporter.  For those of us that can't stand socialism, and don't want to see Obama in office, Biden was the perfect pick.  Now, if only McCain can make the same kind of mistake... but, even then, I doubt we would get a third party candidate in office.






I wonder if Harriet Christian likes the pick?


&eurl=http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2008/08/clinton-insider-on-biden-pick-maybe-its.html



:smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8819775 - 08/24/08 11:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Seuss-See brazil.

Good point.  Socialism at work:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2006/09/25/brazil_murder_rate_similar_to_war_zone_data_shows/
Quote:

More than 150 Brazilians were murdered each day last year (2006) on average, putting Brazil on a par with some war zones in terms of its homicide rate, the Justice Ministry said on Monday.




http://poverty2.forumone.com/library/view/8638/
Quote:

The level of poverty in Brazil is well above the norm for a middle-income country.




http://indexmundi.com/brazil/unemployment_rate.html
Quote:

Unemployment rate (for 2007): 9.80%




http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/blumen2.html
Quote:

In Brazil, technological progress has gone into reverse, stupidity has won out over innovation, shirking takes the place of productivity, and the absurd is accepted as normal. There is a repeated visual motif of overly complex technologies that perform simple tasks badly. Many devices are broken, malfunctioning, or otherwise not user-friendly. For example, data entry workers peer at tiny computer monitors through huge magnifying glasses. A breakfast machine sprays coffee and produces soggy toast. Alarms will not shut off. These are all clear examples of bureaucratically imposed solutions that have not passed a market test.




http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/brazil-freedom-expression-under-threat-para-police-torture-reporters-200
Quote:

Press freedom and the protection of human rights is being jeopardised by the brutal actions of criminal gangs made up of off-duty police officers in Rio de Janeiro, said Amnesty International, as reports emerged of the kidnap and torture of a team of reporters by a para-policing group, known locally as milicias.




http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#10 United States
#30 Barbados
#41 Qatar
#45 Croatia
#50 Bahamas, The
#58 Libya
#63 Brazil




http://www.worldwide-tax.com/brazil/brazil_taxes.asp
Quote:

Individual Income Tax: 15% to 27.5%

Corporate Tax: Brazil's corporate tax rate for 2007 is 34%.The tax consists of a basic tax of 15%. There is also a surtax of 10% for annual income of over BRL 240,000, about $ 110,000. Additonal 9% are added for social contribution on net profits.




Thanks for pointing a great example of socialism screwing over a country.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8819789 - 08/24/08 11:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Zouden, you state that you would happily pay taxes for health care.  Why don't you just pay for the health care yourself, whether through insurance or out of pocket or with a health savings plan?  Is it perhaps because you know damn well that it isn't going to be your taxes that pay for it but rather the taxes of the top 10% of earners who pay 70% of the taxes who will actually pay.  My how cavalierly you toss about other peoples' money.  Especially when it is for yourself.  What a mensch!

As to Dr's pay it isn't all that great for most doctors.  It is true that some get quite rich but that is rather rare.  I would put the median at somewhere around $200,000.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings
That puts them in only the top 2-5% range.  This does not account for the exorbitant cost in time and money for them to acquire the degree, which time and money would almost certainly be better invested in other ways.  Should they be paid less there will certainly be fewer doctors, less competent doctors and longer waiting times.

Then we have the next danger on the list which is that some gummint bureaucrat will be deciding who gets what procedure.  A cost benefit analysis will be performed for every procedure by a bureaucrat who is not a doctor or the patient.  But, regardless of that, every person will have already paid. 

And I will end this with yet another caveat regarding gummint control.  They will expropriate the money for other things.  They always do.  From social security to lottery sales for education to tolls for road maintenance the money always seems to end up somewhere else.

Let's make no mistake about what the clamor for gummint health care is all about.  It's about a class of irresponsible bums who think they deserve something at the hands of their fellow responsible citizens.  If you want a health care handout from me then I damn well have the right to tell you to straighten your ass out, stop taking drugs, drinking and smoking, getting fat and I want you in the gym at least 1 hour a day.  Maggot.  And, oh yeah, get to fucking work too.  If you can't find a job, I'll find one for you.  Welcome to the gulag, comrade.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8819863 - 08/24/08 12:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

First, Seuss, bravo.  Excellent refutation.  Seldom is such a serious ownage seen on these boards.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What a mensch!




You're wife speak the yiddish there zap?
Quote:


As to Dr's pay it isn't all that great for most doctors.  It is true that some get quite rich but that is rather rare.  I would put the median at somewhere around $200,000.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings
That puts them in only the top 2-5% range.  This does not account for the exorbitant cost in time and money for them to acquire the degree, which time and money would almost certainly be better invested in other ways.  Should they be paid less there will certainly be fewer doctors, less competent doctors and longer waiting times.





Zappa, as I said I don't begrudge doc's for their just compensation, nor do I anyone.  I just think healthcare is far to regulated and that the costs for doc's time is inflated beyond market levels.  Even if it is not I would support deregulation, but the reduction in pay for the lower end of providers would be a nice benefit.

And I know quite a bit about healthcare, I was very interested in becoming a physician for a number of years and still may give it a go, but the docs I followed were all, but one, dissatisfied in the end and wished they'd pursued other fields.  The doc that liked it and would do it over again was into the "I serve god mentality" but I don't think that would work for me.

I don't see fewer docs with lesser pay, as the supply-demand will adjust to pay them what they deserve.  I'm not talking about price controls here, I'm talking about setting clear standards for licensure and accredation of educational facilities and letting as many schools/residencies/applicants as the market will bear.

Certainly not saying what you may infer- price controls or other artificial means.



Quote:


Then we have the next danger on the list which is that some gummint bureaucrat will be deciding who gets what procedure.  A cost benefit analysis will be performed for every procedure by a bureaucrat who is not a doctor or the patient.  But, regardless of that, every person will have already paid. 





Yep, and this is the problem.  Really, for folks with money though, the last part is the only bad part.  You will get your treatment, one payer healthcare won't change that and no one is suggesting self-pay be made illegal.  It will just be more inconvieniant and harder to find with less self-pays.

And yes, it is unfair to charge you in advance and then not let you use your taxes to support what healthcare you want despite the statistical or other consideration.

Quote:


Let's make no mistake about what the clamor for gummint health care is all about.  It's about a class of irresponsible bums who think they deserve something at the hands of their fellow responsible citizens.  If you want a health care handout from me then I damn well have the right to tell you to straighten your ass out, stop taking drugs, drinking and smoking, getting fat and I want you in the gym at least 1 hour a day.  Maggot.  And, oh yeah, get to fucking work too.  If you can't find a job, I'll find one for you.  Welcome to the gulag, comrade.




Yep, largely.

The cases such as zouden invokes are likely already covered in america, but I'd have no problem tightening up social security/medicare rules to apply more so to people truly delt a bad hand.  The obese ER abusers who refuse to check their diabetes are what worries me, and I suspect you.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: johnm214]
    #8819947 - 08/24/08 12:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm far less worried about obese abusers of a health system that they pay for than I am about gummint bureaucrats telling people how they must behave in order to access what they paid for.  If the fucking whales had to pay for their own doctors maybe they'd stop being such hogs.  If you think fighting with insurance co. bureaucrats is bad wait until the gummint runs shit.  Then you'll really learn what "no recourse" means.

Doctors are, if anything, underpaid.  Part of the problem there is that every doctor needs to have a full time staffer whose sole responsibility is to wade through insurance regulations so that they can get paid at all.  It probably takes more time to requisition for an office visit than the office visit itself.  Then there is the insurance co. tool who is supposed to make sure they don't overbill.  Both of these essentially useless pieces of baggage are paid for by the patients.  If the government takes over none of that will change at all and will almost certainly result in even greater layers of useless functionaries.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8820061 - 08/24/08 01:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

agreed on pretty much everything.

I worked in a hospital for a little over 2 years (took a year off undergrad while deciding what I wanted to do) as a tech on a med surg floor and floated to ER and Critical Care/ICU units at a county hospital.  Real eye opener.  I also was trained and worked as a unit secretary (order labs, do admissions, make sure referal doctors get the referal et cet).

Didn't have anything to do with billing, but heard lots of bitching about it.  Also followed some docs around for three days in various fields, which is where my statements come from about them not liking it- same with the folks at my hospital actually, and all but one were out of residency.

At least insurance is supposedly private, so the doc doesn't have to accept it or anything.  Really though, the insurance companies tend to match the joint commision (medicare accredation board) on requirements for reimbursment, and use the medicare pay scales and approved procedures/indications as the basis for their own reimbursment/coverage decisions- though they often are different in scope or reimbursment depending on insurer and program.


So really, even now, the government regulations bleed over to the private sector.  And a hospital has to be medicare accredited or it can't really survive unless it has a pretty lucrative niche.  I'm not even sure any hospitals do survive without accredation as they generally can't get insurance reimbursment either if they're not approved.


Add in the different standards on things for every insurer, with its own idiosyncrasies, and you get a pain in the ass, as you mention.  The biggest bullshit is insurers who won't approve a procedure untill after being billed for it.  So the patient won't know if he'll have to pay 7 gs for that operation the doctor recomends to be on the safe side untill weeks to months after the fact.


Docs really have a shitty hand at the moment in alot of ways.  I don't begrudge them their compensation.  I do begrudge the government telling me I can't buy medication I've been taking for years without paying the doc whatever he demands for self pays.  I should not need to pay one-hundred to seventy bucks to see a doc for a refill on acne medication if I'm an adult.  Same with friends who've been on the same antidepressants for years.  This isn't the doctor's fault, but is an example of government bullshit.



But you really see the fruits or lack thereof of our current system in the folks not currently covered by social security who come into the ER to get school forms signed, get their vaginal bleeding checked out, or who's kids are sick.  The ER is the only place where patients have a right to "stabilizing treatment" in the whole hospital, and in effect the work required to correctly rule out serious complications is about the same as actually treating the bullshit that you figure is just some dumb cough, so most hospitals don't invite the bad publicity that comes with turning down ER visits for bullshit.


It all hits the ER and is pretty sad.  Drug seeker (that should be able to buy their own drugs for cheap at a pharmacy till they decide to get off them), all manner of chronic conditions with no reason to be in the ER, and the general BS is found there.

I can't help but think a deregulated system would produce more charity hospitals and docs willing to take on these folks for cheap rates to fix/diagnose their gynecologial problems and primary care bullshit.


Medicare is the great charity giver and what most docs in a hospital practice or who take older folks make their living on, and it kinda obviates the need for charity hospitals or reduced rates for the docs willing to do such.


With a huge cut in taxes when social programs are cut out I'd imagine more docs willing to volunteer their time to help folks who would actually use a primary care doc if they had one.  And the fact that medicare will cover many folks who need the operations like zouden talks about kinda takes away the incentive for surgeons and others to provide care for those with reduced abilities to pay  (why should they make exceptions when everyone almost with serious problem can be covered except 'that guy'- can't save the world).  These folks that can't get medicare coverage just wait around till the problem is acutely threatening and then dump themselves upon the ER- the keys to the kingdom are then there's as teh hospital must treat them  till they are stabilized.  With someone in diabetic crises, that is often a trip to the ICU for mega bucks, and for zouden's kidney guy that is a trip to the ICU too with dialysis in the future....


Gotta wonder if the decrease in charity care is related to the increase in social programs?  I think it is, just as college tuition skyrockets as the student loans available increase.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: johnm214]
    #8820077 - 08/24/08 01:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i thnk it should just be socialized medicine and also medical all drugs and all the proceeds of the massive profits we will wreak from the drugs will go to our hospitals


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820083 - 08/24/08 01:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
i thnk it should just be socialized medicine and also medical all drugs and all the proceeds of the massive profits we will wreak from the drugs will go to our hospitals




What a well reasoned refutation of my remarks.  All handout, no head.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8820098 - 08/24/08 01:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wow really we thought the same itinerary independently
thats coo :thumbup:


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820662 - 08/24/08 03:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> i thnk it should just be socialized medicine

Why should I be required to pay for your destructive lifestyle?  If I am paying, then I damn well want control over what you do with your life.  This is how socialism ends up becoming authoritarianism/fascism.  There are no free handouts in life.

The reason why medical care is so expensive is because the system is corrupt and broken.  Rather than writing a blank check to the medical industry, signed by the taxpayer, fix the system.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820677 - 08/24/08 03:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

dude if we didnt have the drug war we would be paying no more in taxes than we did now to fund our medical system
and besides i bet your paying a lot right now for medicare but you dont view it as a tax


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820738 - 08/24/08 03:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do us a favor, and sober up a bit before posting.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820748 - 08/24/08 03:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wut i posted made perfect sense
how much do we spend on the drug war
how much would we be making if we taxed drugs
how much do u currently spend for healthcare
look at the numbers man


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820803 - 08/24/08 04:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> wut i posted made perfect sense

Lacking coherency, correct spelling, basic grammar, any punctuation, or capitalization, your previous three posts in this thread have been a far cry from making perfect sense. 

dude wut i am saying is that you dont make any fookin cents when you is spinnin like a top man cause the rest of us are in the green not the purple red zones are wicked like yeah man thats the way up and up like


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820826 - 08/24/08 04:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

yes it is lacking all of those except coherency


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820920 - 08/24/08 04:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Seuss-See brazil.

Good point.  Socialism at work:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#10 United States
#30 Barbados
#41 Qatar
#45 Croatia
#50 Bahamas, The
#58 Libya
#63 Brazil







Socialism seems quite prevalent at the top of the list.
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#2  Iceland
#3  Australia
#4  Canada
#5  Luxembourg
#6  Sweden
#7  Switzerland
#8  Ireland
#9  Belgium
#10  United States





Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you think fighting with insurance co. bureaucrats is bad wait until the gummint runs shit.  Then you'll really learn what "no recourse" means.



No, there's a fundamental difference. The employees of an insurance agency are encouraged to NOT pay for your treatment - they get bonuses in fact, and will use every trick in the book to get out of it. In contrast, Medicare (the aussie system) always pays for your treatment. Everyone is covered, and there is no fine print. The system is much simpler.

I know public health care doesn't sit well with Americans. But the people in most other developed countries voted to bring it in, and haven't regretted it.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821011 - 08/24/08 04:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Nonsense.  Insurance companies can be sued.  The gummint cannot.  Recourse.

I cannot speak to what bill of goods has been sold to the victims of socialized medicine but I have sure heard my share of complaints from them.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821031 - 08/24/08 04:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Socialism seems quite prevalent at the top of the list.

Which has nothing to do with Brazil and is only a single metric in the many that I listed.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821039 - 08/24/08 04:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But the people in most other developed countries voted to bring it in, and haven't regretted it.



Does Australia Government run healthcare pay for aggresive (and expensive) chemo like cisplatin combination therapy, and if relapse occurs, will they pay for (even more expensive) chemo drugs that will beat the chemo resistant cells?

I've been wondering about this for some time and can't find anything online about socialist healthcare treating very expensive conditions, like cisplatin resistant lymphoma or carcinoma.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8821114 - 08/24/08 04:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Nonsense.  Insurance companies can be sued.  The gummint cannot.  Recourse.



a) The goverment can be sued, and it happens a lot.
b) Suing an insurance company is a good way to lose a lot of money. And people who are sick are unlikely to have the energy to sue them, and they know it.

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Socialism seems quite prevalent at the top of the list.

Which has nothing to do with Brazil and is only a single metric in the many that I listed.



Well said. I will respond by saying that Brazil is only a single data point that can not be used to make generalisations about socialism.

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

zouden said:
But the people in most other developed countries voted to bring it in, and haven't regretted it.



Does Australia Government run healthcare pay for aggresive (and expensive) chemo like cisplatin combination therapy, and if relapse occurs, will they pay for (even more expensive) chemo drugs that will beat the chemo resistant cells?

I've been wondering about this for some time and can't find anything online about socialist healthcare treating very expensive conditions, like cisplatin resistant lymphoma or carcinoma.




That's a good question - I'll look into it when I get time (I'm about to leave for work).
Australia still has private health care - if something isn't covered you can always pay for it, just like in the US. We have private hospitals, and we have private health insurance for people who want to pay for (what they think is) better care.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821212 - 08/24/08 05:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

More bullshit.  Insurance companies get sued all the time.  And lose huge judgments.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8821257 - 08/24/08 05:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It's already started:

Quote:

MONTGOMERY, Ala. - Alabama, pushed to second in national obesity rankings by deep-fried Southern favorites, is cracking down on state workers who are too fat.
ADVERTISEMENT

The state has given its 37,527 employees a year to start getting fit — or they'll pay $25 a month for insurance that otherwise is free.

Alabama will be the first state to charge overweight state workers who don't work on slimming down, while a handful of other states reward employees who adopt healthy behaviors.

Alabama already charges workers who smoke — and has seen some success in getting them to quit — but now has turned its attention to a problem that plagues many in the Deep South: obesity.

The State Employees' Insurance Board this week approved a plan to charge state workers starting in January 2010 if they don't have free health screenings.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080822/ap_on_bi_ge/obesity_penalty


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8821444 - 08/24/08 06:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Insurance companies get sued all the time.  And lose huge judgments.

They usually settle, but they definitely get sued a lot.  Living in a tourist destination, I see a lot of lawsuits from the tourists against people on island.  Some idiot tourist gets drunk, trips, sprains his wrist, and decides that he is entitled to a few million dollars for the pain and suffering due to his drunken stupidity.  The sad part is the insurance companies will settle rather than fight these bogus lawsuits.  Very annoying.


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8821730 - 08/24/08 07:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Seuss-See brazil.

Good point.  Socialism at work:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2006/09/25/brazil_murder_rate_similar_to_war_zone_data_shows/
Quote:

More than 150 Brazilians were murdered each day last year (2006) on average, putting Brazil on a par with some war zones in terms of its homicide rate, the Justice Ministry said on Monday.




http://poverty2.forumone.com/library/view/8638/
Quote:

The level of poverty in Brazil is well above the norm for a middle-income country.




http://indexmundi.com/brazil/unemployment_rate.html
Quote:

Unemployment rate (for 2007): 9.80%




http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/blumen2.html
Quote:

In Brazil, technological progress has gone into reverse, stupidity has won out over innovation, shirking takes the place of productivity, and the absurd is accepted as normal. There is a repeated visual motif of overly complex technologies that perform simple tasks badly. Many devices are broken, malfunctioning, or otherwise not user-friendly. For example, data entry workers peer at tiny computer monitors through huge magnifying glasses. A breakfast machine sprays coffee and produces soggy toast. Alarms will not shut off. These are all clear examples of bureaucratically imposed solutions that have not passed a market test.




http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/brazil-freedom-expression-under-threat-para-police-torture-reporters-200
Quote:

Press freedom and the protection of human rights is being jeopardised by the brutal actions of criminal gangs made up of off-duty police officers in Rio de Janeiro, said Amnesty International, as reports emerged of the kidnap and torture of a team of reporters by a para-policing group, known locally as milicias.




http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#10 United States
#30 Barbados
#41 Qatar
#45 Croatia
#50 Bahamas, The
#58 Libya
#63 Brazil




http://www.worldwide-tax.com/brazil/brazil_taxes.asp
Quote:

Individual Income Tax: 15% to 27.5%

Corporate Tax: Brazil's corporate tax rate for 2007 is 34%.The tax consists of a basic tax of 15%. There is also a surtax of 10% for annual income of over BRL 240,000, about $ 110,000. Additonal 9% are added for social contribution on net profits.




Thanks for pointing a great example of socialism screwing over a country.


Brazil was fucked up long before socialism. It's the drug trade and corruption that creates brazil's problems. Not socialized healthcare. You failed to mention that they are not dependant on fossile fuels. If we werent so caught up in the money that oil produces where do you think all that extra dough would go? South america isnt even a super power, yet there isnt one state in our country where things are different. What have you shown me?


--------------------
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8821779 - 08/24/08 07:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You're the one who brought up Brazil. What were you trying to point out?


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8821833 - 08/24/08 07:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
dude if we didnt have the drug war we would be paying no more in taxes than we did now to fund our medical system
and besides i bet your paying a lot right now for medicare but you dont view it as a tax





How do you figure?

At an estimation of 50Billion state and federal drug war-related spending per year, which seems to be close to accurate all things considered last time I tried to find some accurate numbers, and a 2004 figure of 265$ B dollars spent on medicare, I see no way this is anything remotely close to accurate.

Given further that medicare spending in 04 was only 12% of spending on healthcare in the US in 04, and that the 50 billion drug war figure would need to be swallowed by the feds for exclusively healthcare with states and feds cutting their spending/taxation accordingly for the gain to be felt in toto, I don't think its realistic- bye bye excess swat/pig patrol/prosecutor/prison thug jobs and assorted other drug war employment programs.

The only other option would be that all the drug war jobs are lost and the states use their share of the excess funds exclusively on health care programs and fire all the prison guards/cops/ other crap rather than kicking it to the feds.

I should note that neither firing state workers and giving their salaries to the feds nor states running their own healthcare programs with these salaries, if the citezins want socialist care so badly, seems to be a realistic option.


While I've neglected to consider existing state-ran programs the sheer magnitude of your false promise is readily apparent allready.




This pretty much sums up the problem of letting the government manage the money.  You think they will make cuts to fund a program?  Nope, not if it means taking heat from politicians and families that have lived quite comfortably working for the criminal justice industry and prosecuting victimless crimes for a decent proportion of their salary.  Check out the rural legislators in areas with huge prisons... guess who is "tough on crime"? 

While we should end the drug war, it would take time to get the monies back from the bloated criminal justice fields and into the treasury, and the gain wouldn't be anywhere close to enough to cover healthcare.  Hell, it wouldn't even be close to enough to cover existing medicare programs (before the prescription drug bill, mind you).


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Redstorm]
    #8821836 - 08/24/08 07:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i was talking about socialism not being so bad. He was talking about a bunch of issues he feels socialism is responsible for. Socialism isnt the cause.


--------------------
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TRANSCEND



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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Redstorm]
    #8821870 - 08/24/08 07:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You're the one who brought up Brazil. What were you trying to point out?





1:  Socialism is bad
2:  No it isn't. 
1:  Yes it is, it is wrong and bad for the country.
2.  No it isn't, check out Brazil
1:  Brazil is bad [source]
2:  Yes Brazil is bad, but it has a rich history of being bad. And it is also socialist mind you.
1:  :confused:
2:  I win


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: johnm214]
    #8821919 - 08/24/08 08:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

it's not about winning.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8823542 - 08/25/08 06:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

it's not about winning.




Well, socialism certainly isn't about winning, that's for sure.




Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleJack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Phred]
    #8823595 - 08/25/08 07:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

winning what? that doesnt even make any sense.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleShnezbit
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8823664 - 08/25/08 08:19 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I can't believe people aren't making a bigger deal about Biden blatantly lieing to us that he wasn't the pick. We really are a bunch of sheep.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Shnezbit]
    #8823744 - 08/25/08 08:50 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> I can't believe people aren't making a bigger deal about Biden blatantly lieing to us that he wasn't the pick.

Oh, he was just pretending that he wasn't Biden.  :rolleyes:

(In the grand scheme of lies that politicians tell, regardless of political party, this is really pretty minor.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinetomnl
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8823757 - 08/25/08 08:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
Been away so long I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey disconnect the phone
I'm back in the USSA
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSA


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: tomnl]
    #8823781 - 08/25/08 09:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Joe Biden Has a Much Higher IQ Than You




http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8b5_1219507341



BTW

"He didn't get a full scholarship, and the partial scholarship he received was based purely on financial need, not academic excellence. He graduated 76th of 85 students, not "in the top half" of his class. He didn't get "three degrees" in college; he got one degree in a double major, which is hardly some sort of amazing feat. (Where did he get three degrees from? No idea. Captain Ed suggests that math was obviously not one of the three.)


http://ace.mu.nu/



--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by lonestar2004 (08/25/08 09:04 AM)


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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8823909 - 08/25/08 09:50 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that's a shitty remark, it would have been great to hear the response if he were to say that at a MENSA meeting.

But this was the '88 elections. He likely was right, look at the competition. One of the worst crops in a presidential primary/election in the history of the country.

:shrug:



~Monk


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: numonkei]
    #8825869 - 08/25/08 04:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think the intelligence of a presidential candidate affects the voters in any big way...:sad:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8825927 - 08/25/08 04:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> I don't think the intelligence of a presidential candidate affects the voters in any big way...:sad:

And I hate to admit it, but I don't think intelligence is important in being a good president. Jimmy Carter is my example.  One of the smartest people to ever hold the office, yet an absolute horrid failure of a president.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8826032 - 08/25/08 05:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think it shows that the president isn't as powerful as we would like to think; there are other forces at work (aka the media, big business and lobby groups)


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8826126 - 08/25/08 05:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

How about......Wait for it>>>>>>>??????? Here it comes..........It's a doozy>>>>>>>>>>????????<<<<<<<<<<












The fucking Congress.  Yes, that's right THE pre-eminent legislative body in the US government.  Yowzah Yowzah Yowzah.


--------------------


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