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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #8819775 - 08/24/08 11:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Seuss-See brazil.

Good point.  Socialism at work:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2006/09/25/brazil_murder_rate_similar_to_war_zone_data_shows/
Quote:

More than 150 Brazilians were murdered each day last year (2006) on average, putting Brazil on a par with some war zones in terms of its homicide rate, the Justice Ministry said on Monday.




http://poverty2.forumone.com/library/view/8638/
Quote:

The level of poverty in Brazil is well above the norm for a middle-income country.




http://indexmundi.com/brazil/unemployment_rate.html
Quote:

Unemployment rate (for 2007): 9.80%




http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/blumen2.html
Quote:

In Brazil, technological progress has gone into reverse, stupidity has won out over innovation, shirking takes the place of productivity, and the absurd is accepted as normal. There is a repeated visual motif of overly complex technologies that perform simple tasks badly. Many devices are broken, malfunctioning, or otherwise not user-friendly. For example, data entry workers peer at tiny computer monitors through huge magnifying glasses. A breakfast machine sprays coffee and produces soggy toast. Alarms will not shut off. These are all clear examples of bureaucratically imposed solutions that have not passed a market test.




http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/brazil-freedom-expression-under-threat-para-police-torture-reporters-200
Quote:

Press freedom and the protection of human rights is being jeopardised by the brutal actions of criminal gangs made up of off-duty police officers in Rio de Janeiro, said Amnesty International, as reports emerged of the kidnap and torture of a team of reporters by a para-policing group, known locally as milicias.




http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#10 United States
#30 Barbados
#41 Qatar
#45 Croatia
#50 Bahamas, The
#58 Libya
#63 Brazil




http://www.worldwide-tax.com/brazil/brazil_taxes.asp
Quote:

Individual Income Tax: 15% to 27.5%

Corporate Tax: Brazil's corporate tax rate for 2007 is 34%.The tax consists of a basic tax of 15%. There is also a surtax of 10% for annual income of over BRL 240,000, about $ 110,000. Additonal 9% are added for social contribution on net profits.




Thanks for pointing a great example of socialism screwing over a country.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8819789 - 08/24/08 11:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Zouden, you state that you would happily pay taxes for health care.  Why don't you just pay for the health care yourself, whether through insurance or out of pocket or with a health savings plan?  Is it perhaps because you know damn well that it isn't going to be your taxes that pay for it but rather the taxes of the top 10% of earners who pay 70% of the taxes who will actually pay.  My how cavalierly you toss about other peoples' money.  Especially when it is for yourself.  What a mensch!

As to Dr's pay it isn't all that great for most doctors.  It is true that some get quite rich but that is rather rare.  I would put the median at somewhere around $200,000.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings
That puts them in only the top 2-5% range.  This does not account for the exorbitant cost in time and money for them to acquire the degree, which time and money would almost certainly be better invested in other ways.  Should they be paid less there will certainly be fewer doctors, less competent doctors and longer waiting times.

Then we have the next danger on the list which is that some gummint bureaucrat will be deciding who gets what procedure.  A cost benefit analysis will be performed for every procedure by a bureaucrat who is not a doctor or the patient.  But, regardless of that, every person will have already paid. 

And I will end this with yet another caveat regarding gummint control.  They will expropriate the money for other things.  They always do.  From social security to lottery sales for education to tolls for road maintenance the money always seems to end up somewhere else.

Let's make no mistake about what the clamor for gummint health care is all about.  It's about a class of irresponsible bums who think they deserve something at the hands of their fellow responsible citizens.  If you want a health care handout from me then I damn well have the right to tell you to straighten your ass out, stop taking drugs, drinking and smoking, getting fat and I want you in the gym at least 1 hour a day.  Maggot.  And, oh yeah, get to fucking work too.  If you can't find a job, I'll find one for you.  Welcome to the gulag, comrade.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8819863 - 08/24/08 12:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

First, Seuss, bravo.  Excellent refutation.  Seldom is such a serious ownage seen on these boards.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What a mensch!




You're wife speak the yiddish there zap?
Quote:


As to Dr's pay it isn't all that great for most doctors.  It is true that some get quite rich but that is rather rare.  I would put the median at somewhere around $200,000.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings
That puts them in only the top 2-5% range.  This does not account for the exorbitant cost in time and money for them to acquire the degree, which time and money would almost certainly be better invested in other ways.  Should they be paid less there will certainly be fewer doctors, less competent doctors and longer waiting times.





Zappa, as I said I don't begrudge doc's for their just compensation, nor do I anyone.  I just think healthcare is far to regulated and that the costs for doc's time is inflated beyond market levels.  Even if it is not I would support deregulation, but the reduction in pay for the lower end of providers would be a nice benefit.

And I know quite a bit about healthcare, I was very interested in becoming a physician for a number of years and still may give it a go, but the docs I followed were all, but one, dissatisfied in the end and wished they'd pursued other fields.  The doc that liked it and would do it over again was into the "I serve god mentality" but I don't think that would work for me.

I don't see fewer docs with lesser pay, as the supply-demand will adjust to pay them what they deserve.  I'm not talking about price controls here, I'm talking about setting clear standards for licensure and accredation of educational facilities and letting as many schools/residencies/applicants as the market will bear.

Certainly not saying what you may infer- price controls or other artificial means.



Quote:


Then we have the next danger on the list which is that some gummint bureaucrat will be deciding who gets what procedure.  A cost benefit analysis will be performed for every procedure by a bureaucrat who is not a doctor or the patient.  But, regardless of that, every person will have already paid. 





Yep, and this is the problem.  Really, for folks with money though, the last part is the only bad part.  You will get your treatment, one payer healthcare won't change that and no one is suggesting self-pay be made illegal.  It will just be more inconvieniant and harder to find with less self-pays.

And yes, it is unfair to charge you in advance and then not let you use your taxes to support what healthcare you want despite the statistical or other consideration.

Quote:


Let's make no mistake about what the clamor for gummint health care is all about.  It's about a class of irresponsible bums who think they deserve something at the hands of their fellow responsible citizens.  If you want a health care handout from me then I damn well have the right to tell you to straighten your ass out, stop taking drugs, drinking and smoking, getting fat and I want you in the gym at least 1 hour a day.  Maggot.  And, oh yeah, get to fucking work too.  If you can't find a job, I'll find one for you.  Welcome to the gulag, comrade.




Yep, largely.

The cases such as zouden invokes are likely already covered in america, but I'd have no problem tightening up social security/medicare rules to apply more so to people truly delt a bad hand.  The obese ER abusers who refuse to check their diabetes are what worries me, and I suspect you.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: johnm214]
    #8819947 - 08/24/08 12:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm far less worried about obese abusers of a health system that they pay for than I am about gummint bureaucrats telling people how they must behave in order to access what they paid for.  If the fucking whales had to pay for their own doctors maybe they'd stop being such hogs.  If you think fighting with insurance co. bureaucrats is bad wait until the gummint runs shit.  Then you'll really learn what "no recourse" means.

Doctors are, if anything, underpaid.  Part of the problem there is that every doctor needs to have a full time staffer whose sole responsibility is to wade through insurance regulations so that they can get paid at all.  It probably takes more time to requisition for an office visit than the office visit itself.  Then there is the insurance co. tool who is supposed to make sure they don't overbill.  Both of these essentially useless pieces of baggage are paid for by the patients.  If the government takes over none of that will change at all and will almost certainly result in even greater layers of useless functionaries.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8820061 - 08/24/08 01:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

agreed on pretty much everything.

I worked in a hospital for a little over 2 years (took a year off undergrad while deciding what I wanted to do) as a tech on a med surg floor and floated to ER and Critical Care/ICU units at a county hospital.  Real eye opener.  I also was trained and worked as a unit secretary (order labs, do admissions, make sure referal doctors get the referal et cet).

Didn't have anything to do with billing, but heard lots of bitching about it.  Also followed some docs around for three days in various fields, which is where my statements come from about them not liking it- same with the folks at my hospital actually, and all but one were out of residency.

At least insurance is supposedly private, so the doc doesn't have to accept it or anything.  Really though, the insurance companies tend to match the joint commision (medicare accredation board) on requirements for reimbursment, and use the medicare pay scales and approved procedures/indications as the basis for their own reimbursment/coverage decisions- though they often are different in scope or reimbursment depending on insurer and program.


So really, even now, the government regulations bleed over to the private sector.  And a hospital has to be medicare accredited or it can't really survive unless it has a pretty lucrative niche.  I'm not even sure any hospitals do survive without accredation as they generally can't get insurance reimbursment either if they're not approved.


Add in the different standards on things for every insurer, with its own idiosyncrasies, and you get a pain in the ass, as you mention.  The biggest bullshit is insurers who won't approve a procedure untill after being billed for it.  So the patient won't know if he'll have to pay 7 gs for that operation the doctor recomends to be on the safe side untill weeks to months after the fact.


Docs really have a shitty hand at the moment in alot of ways.  I don't begrudge them their compensation.  I do begrudge the government telling me I can't buy medication I've been taking for years without paying the doc whatever he demands for self pays.  I should not need to pay one-hundred to seventy bucks to see a doc for a refill on acne medication if I'm an adult.  Same with friends who've been on the same antidepressants for years.  This isn't the doctor's fault, but is an example of government bullshit.



But you really see the fruits or lack thereof of our current system in the folks not currently covered by social security who come into the ER to get school forms signed, get their vaginal bleeding checked out, or who's kids are sick.  The ER is the only place where patients have a right to "stabilizing treatment" in the whole hospital, and in effect the work required to correctly rule out serious complications is about the same as actually treating the bullshit that you figure is just some dumb cough, so most hospitals don't invite the bad publicity that comes with turning down ER visits for bullshit.


It all hits the ER and is pretty sad.  Drug seeker (that should be able to buy their own drugs for cheap at a pharmacy till they decide to get off them), all manner of chronic conditions with no reason to be in the ER, and the general BS is found there.

I can't help but think a deregulated system would produce more charity hospitals and docs willing to take on these folks for cheap rates to fix/diagnose their gynecologial problems and primary care bullshit.


Medicare is the great charity giver and what most docs in a hospital practice or who take older folks make their living on, and it kinda obviates the need for charity hospitals or reduced rates for the docs willing to do such.


With a huge cut in taxes when social programs are cut out I'd imagine more docs willing to volunteer their time to help folks who would actually use a primary care doc if they had one.  And the fact that medicare will cover many folks who need the operations like zouden talks about kinda takes away the incentive for surgeons and others to provide care for those with reduced abilities to pay  (why should they make exceptions when everyone almost with serious problem can be covered except 'that guy'- can't save the world).  These folks that can't get medicare coverage just wait around till the problem is acutely threatening and then dump themselves upon the ER- the keys to the kingdom are then there's as teh hospital must treat them  till they are stabilized.  With someone in diabetic crises, that is often a trip to the ICU for mega bucks, and for zouden's kidney guy that is a trip to the ICU too with dialysis in the future....


Gotta wonder if the decrease in charity care is related to the increase in social programs?  I think it is, just as college tuition skyrockets as the student loans available increase.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: johnm214]
    #8820077 - 08/24/08 01:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i thnk it should just be socialized medicine and also medical all drugs and all the proceeds of the massive profits we will wreak from the drugs will go to our hospitals


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820083 - 08/24/08 01:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
i thnk it should just be socialized medicine and also medical all drugs and all the proceeds of the massive profits we will wreak from the drugs will go to our hospitals




What a well reasoned refutation of my remarks.  All handout, no head.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8820098 - 08/24/08 01:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wow really we thought the same itinerary independently
thats coo :thumbup:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820662 - 08/24/08 03:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> i thnk it should just be socialized medicine

Why should I be required to pay for your destructive lifestyle?  If I am paying, then I damn well want control over what you do with your life.  This is how socialism ends up becoming authoritarianism/fascism.  There are no free handouts in life.

The reason why medical care is so expensive is because the system is corrupt and broken.  Rather than writing a blank check to the medical industry, signed by the taxpayer, fix the system.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820677 - 08/24/08 03:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

dude if we didnt have the drug war we would be paying no more in taxes than we did now to fund our medical system
and besides i bet your paying a lot right now for medicare but you dont view it as a tax


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820738 - 08/24/08 03:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do us a favor, and sober up a bit before posting.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820748 - 08/24/08 03:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wut i posted made perfect sense
how much do we spend on the drug war
how much would we be making if we taxed drugs
how much do u currently spend for healthcare
look at the numbers man


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Coaster]
    #8820803 - 08/24/08 04:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> wut i posted made perfect sense

Lacking coherency, correct spelling, basic grammar, any punctuation, or capitalization, your previous three posts in this thread have been a far cry from making perfect sense. 

dude wut i am saying is that you dont make any fookin cents when you is spinnin like a top man cause the rest of us are in the green not the purple red zones are wicked like yeah man thats the way up and up like


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820826 - 08/24/08 04:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

yes it is lacking all of those except coherency


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: Seuss]
    #8820920 - 08/24/08 04:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Seuss-See brazil.

Good point.  Socialism at work:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#10 United States
#30 Barbados
#41 Qatar
#45 Croatia
#50 Bahamas, The
#58 Libya
#63 Brazil







Socialism seems quite prevalent at the top of the list.
Quote:

Human Development Index:
#1 Norway
#2  Iceland
#3  Australia
#4  Canada
#5  Luxembourg
#6  Sweden
#7  Switzerland
#8  Ireland
#9  Belgium
#10  United States





Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you think fighting with insurance co. bureaucrats is bad wait until the gummint runs shit.  Then you'll really learn what "no recourse" means.



No, there's a fundamental difference. The employees of an insurance agency are encouraged to NOT pay for your treatment - they get bonuses in fact, and will use every trick in the book to get out of it. In contrast, Medicare (the aussie system) always pays for your treatment. Everyone is covered, and there is no fine print. The system is much simpler.

I know public health care doesn't sit well with Americans. But the people in most other developed countries voted to bring it in, and haven't regretted it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821011 - 08/24/08 04:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Nonsense.  Insurance companies can be sued.  The gummint cannot.  Recourse.

I cannot speak to what bill of goods has been sold to the victims of socialized medicine but I have sure heard my share of complaints from them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821031 - 08/24/08 04:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Socialism seems quite prevalent at the top of the list.

Which has nothing to do with Brazil and is only a single metric in the many that I listed.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821039 - 08/24/08 04:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But the people in most other developed countries voted to bring it in, and haven't regretted it.



Does Australia Government run healthcare pay for aggresive (and expensive) chemo like cisplatin combination therapy, and if relapse occurs, will they pay for (even more expensive) chemo drugs that will beat the chemo resistant cells?

I've been wondering about this for some time and can't find anything online about socialist healthcare treating very expensive conditions, like cisplatin resistant lymphoma or carcinoma.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8821114 - 08/24/08 04:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Nonsense.  Insurance companies can be sued.  The gummint cannot.  Recourse.



a) The goverment can be sued, and it happens a lot.
b) Suing an insurance company is a good way to lose a lot of money. And people who are sick are unlikely to have the energy to sue them, and they know it.

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Socialism seems quite prevalent at the top of the list.

Which has nothing to do with Brazil and is only a single metric in the many that I listed.



Well said. I will respond by saying that Brazil is only a single data point that can not be used to make generalisations about socialism.

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

zouden said:
But the people in most other developed countries voted to bring it in, and haven't regretted it.



Does Australia Government run healthcare pay for aggresive (and expensive) chemo like cisplatin combination therapy, and if relapse occurs, will they pay for (even more expensive) chemo drugs that will beat the chemo resistant cells?

I've been wondering about this for some time and can't find anything online about socialist healthcare treating very expensive conditions, like cisplatin resistant lymphoma or carcinoma.




That's a good question - I'll look into it when I get time (I'm about to leave for work).
Australia still has private health care - if something isn't covered you can always pay for it, just like in the US. We have private hospitals, and we have private health insurance for people who want to pay for (what they think is) better care.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Biden's "I'm Not The Guy" Remark [Re: zouden]
    #8821212 - 08/24/08 05:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

More bullshit.  Insurance companies get sued all the time.  And lose huge judgments.


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