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Invisibleseven
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Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,478
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Generations of Isolations
    #8800158 - 08/20/08 11:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

wow here goes :when you acheive an isolate then grow it out\fruit> then isolate from those spores and so on and so on. do you improve the genetics overall in the direction of the phenotypes that you are isolating for. ie: are you decresing unwanted substrains in the genetics of the strain? therefore way down the line a multispore inoculation from said isolate grow would produce more consistant results in the direction of the phenotypes you are isolatinng for.?


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Invisiblelorbitherize
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Re: Generations of Isolations *DELETED* [Re: seven]
    #8800801 - 08/20/08 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by lorbitherize

Reason for deletion: ...



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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: lorbitherize]
    #8800908 - 08/20/08 02:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes.
RR


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Invisiblespacel0rd
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Registered: 07/21/08
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8804218 - 08/21/08 07:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Good to know that it leads to improvement towards the wanted phenotypical expression of specific traits.

And of course it is great in order to avoid degeneration that COULD take place from continual successive cloning.


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: lorbitherize]
    #8804301 - 08/21/08 08:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

To some extent it IS a flea market bonanza (meiosis), but if you've done a good and exhaustive job propagating the best genetics, the resulting prints and syringes should produce similar genetics.


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Invisibleseven
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #8804444 - 08/21/08 10:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i find this amazing. im curious to how many transfers, grows and isolations it would take to get near consistant results with multispore. for a vendor this would be a great product. im sure noone could really tell me how much work it would take, but im sure it may be near decades worth of controled isolations and multiple MS grows.


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: seven]
    #8804886 - 08/21/08 12:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well there is always variability because of meiosis.  I know the mestizo strain took about a year and a half of work before it was sold to a vendor, but having said that...... since the original grower is no longer  propagating the strain for commercial distribution, the genetics are most likely different by now.  Honestly I think you have to practice the isolation/selection process every time you get a syringe or print from a vendor.  You should start on agar, isolate a few times till it's uniformly rhizomorphic, then clone to many grain jars.  Select the fastest growing and the most uniformly rhizomorphic jars and clone them into two or four more jars and repeat.  Spawn these onto your bulk substrate and only take prints from the the best grows.


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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: seven]
    #8810702 - 08/22/08 01:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

seven said:
...do you improve the genetics overall in the direction of the phenotypes that you are isolating for.




I'd say that if you're actively selecting the characteristic you are seeking to predominate in expression, I'd say yes.  However, it really depends on how you do it and the number of characteristics you are attempting to promote.  For example, if you just wanted mushrooms with the largest size, I would select from a spore inoculated culture, the mushroom with the largest mushroom cap, and take spores from that one to grow.  The spores from the largest mushroom should have a preponderance of genetic coding that instructs the mycelium to produce fruits with larger caps. Repeating the process across several generations will create a strain with large mushroom caps.  However, if you added additional criteria like mushrooms with shorter stems, mushrooms that are pure white than brown, and so on; it becomes exceedingly more difficult to do.  Selecting the best mushroom to harvest spores from becomes more of a challenge.  Also, since additional characteristics are being sought after, it also greatly increases the time with which it'll take to finally secure the characteristics that are being sought after.

However, if you are randomly taking spores from any mushroom that grows from your indoor culture method, and repeat the process through successive generations, your indoor culture method becomes the selective process.  In essence, the mushroom strains that can best adapt to your culture methods will dominate in expression.

Did that make sense?


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Invisibleseven
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Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #8812273 - 08/22/08 07:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yes, a selective "breading" of sorts.  :ie  only using spores from the fruits that express the characteristics you seek each time to strenthen genetics in your favor? so this would be a MS way of doing it?. as opposed to isolations from each grow? also in theory could you focus on one trait like the big caps until you get consistant grows with the big caps then work on another trait? seems logical. on the topic of isolation: it amazes me that an isolate has the genetic code to produce fruits with spores containing more than one substrain!


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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
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Posts: 337
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: seven]
    #8813445 - 08/23/08 12:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

seven said:
...only using spores from the fruits that express the characteristics you seek each time to strengthen genetics in your favor? so this would be a MS way of doing it?. as opposed to isolations from each grow? also in theory could you focus on one trait like the big caps until you get consistent grows with the big caps then work on another trait? ...




Yes, you got it.  This is a multispore technique as oppose to a single isolation technique.  In my humble opinion, I believe a multispore technique creates a larger gene pool to "fish" from.  If you took spores from the three of the largest mushroom caps, that gene pool may in theory have the genes for an even larger mushroom cap.

Focusing and selecting your mushroom on one trait alone does make it easier to see the results of your labor much sooner.  The good thing is that most mushrooms can be taken from spore to another generation in about six weeks.  In theory it's possible to take a mushroom through 8 to 10 generations in a year.  If you happen to come a cross a strain that exhibits outstanding characteristics, you could always clone the tissue and store it on an agar slant.  Or if you wanted greater stability, store it as lyophilized mushroom mycelium.


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There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 


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Invisibleseven
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Registered: 06/09/08
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Loc: north carolina
Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #8825000 - 08/25/08 03:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AdoreChampignons said:
Quote:

seven said:
...only using spores from the fruits that express the characteristics you seek each time to strengthen genetics in your favor? so this would be a MS way of doing it?. as opposed to isolations from each grow? also in theory could you focus on one trait like the big caps until you get consistent grows with the big caps then work on another trait? ...




Yes, you got it.  This is a multispore technique as oppose to a single isolation technique.  In my humble opinion, I believe a multispore technique creates a larger gene pool to "fish" from.  If you took spores from the three of the largest mushroom caps, that gene pool may in theory have the genes for an even larger mushroom cap.

Focusing and selecting your mushroom on one trait alone does make it easier to see the results of your labor much sooner.  The good thing is that most mushrooms can be taken from spore to another generation in about six weeks.  In theory it's possible to take a mushroom through 8 to 10 generations in a year.  If you happen to come a cross a strain that exhibits outstanding characteristics, you could always clone the tissue and store it on an agar slant.  Or if you wanted greater stability, store it as lyophilized mushroom mycelium.


THANKS for helping me understand mushroom genetics better.


--------------------
grind


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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 337
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
Re: Generations of Isolations [Re: seven]
    #8826175 - 08/25/08 07:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No problem Seven.  I did well in my biology and microbio classes. I'm glad that I was able to help you out.

Cheers,
Mycophilic One


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