Home | Community | Message Board


Sporeworks
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Seeds Store Buy Cannabis Seeds, Buy CBD   Amazon Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinenumonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God
    #8797913 - 08/19/08 09:25 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I've been inspired from a recent post here to ask this of the community members.

My grandfather received his PHD from Yale in philosophy and theism in 1944. His graduate thesis was on the work, "Process and Reality" by Alfred North Whitehead

I have yet to have the opportunity to actually read this work, but my grandfather, whom I met in Asheville, NC, for a family visit a few months past, spoke of in relative terms to me when I asked him, "How do you continue to pray to Jesus if you don't believe the literal interpretation of the bible or sovereignty of Jesus Christ as God/Son-of-God/?"

His answer, paraphrased, was that: 'He was raised Christian, at the turn of the century, my grandfather just turned 99). His family was devoutly religious, baptist and catholic families, and he was raised as most all of the children from that time in the southern American states, in the idea of god with Jesus as the son, to return to heaven, ect.

I spoke, "I don't believe in the divinity of Christ, do you worry you may not see me in heaven?

But, as he replied, to my interjection, also paraphrased:

"It's not the hope of god or the fear, nor the love of god. It's the idea in a cosmic intelligence that we obviously are. Otherwise, why would we be here? Why would God bring us here to do his bidding if he couldn't be part of it? Experience it? Why would he ONLY live through Jesus, or Mohammed, or Joseph, or L. Ron Hubbard; if he were to experience the world, why then. Why that faith? When other faiths have similar codes, why do they fight?

'If god wanted to play hide-and-seek with himself, how would he do so? Would he want to live forever? Would he want to go to a heaven he created? Would he make others kill each other over only himself?

'Or would he want the change, the alternatives, the learning, the amusement, the beauty of seeing through fresh eyes. We don't pray to God. We don't pray to Jesus. we don't pray to ourselves. We pray, because it's something to do.

Then, paraphrased, I asked, (OK this actually is the quote), "But Why?"

And he smiled, as old and seemingly wise-folk tend to do, and told me:

'If you know you are going to win, why do you play the game?"

Now, my questions follow, I am unfamiliar with Whitehead, and likely much relevant literature, but I'd love to see what my fellow members would have to share.

1) What is the relationship between this and 'Process and Reality' by Albert North Whitehead? What is this book about? I have not yet had the chance to read it, but it seems like rather advanced philosophy, even from ~3/4 of a century ago.

2) Is my grandfather Christian? Scratch That. Why does my grandfather pray to Christ at grace when his heroes are: Bhudda, Jesus Christ, and Mahatma Gandhi; as apparent from his response.

3) The above is paraphrased. But minus semantics, is the general course of his answers. Do you find anything that he may be trying to 'pass on' or 'emphasize' from my paraphrasing?

And:

4) May there be credence to this idea of a 'Cosmic Intelligence'? I know this has been covered, but if a religious man can speak of something like this, and a eastern zen-master can speak of respecting sovereignty of a religious icon without allowing authority or monopoly on sovereignty, what does this imply for our religious/spiritual development in an era where instad of telegrams we have IM's and PM's.

5) Why does the idea of a 'Cosmic Intelligence', outside of your closest idea to 'God'; scare you, make you happy; confuse you; placate you, ect.

My family is my family, but my especially intelligent family plays games with concepts. I'm only trying to get some alternative points of view from my general situation with this discussion.

Any constructive input would be helpful, and if anyone has read 'Process and Reality' by Albert North Whitehead, and could provide some key ideas that may relate to the above discussion, that would also be invaluable to me.

:smile:




~Monk


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: numonkei]
    #8798101 - 08/19/08 10:04 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I just want to share an excerpt from Alan Watts "The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" because you mentioned God's game of hide-and-seek..

Quote:

God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing
outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over
this difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of
hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people
in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the
stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of
which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams,
for when he wakes up they will disappear.

Now when God plays hide and pretends that he is you and I, he does
it so well that it takes him a long time to remember where and how he
hid himself. But that's the whole fun of it—just what he wanted to do.
He doesn't want to find himself too quickly, for that would spoil the
game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we
are God in disguise, pretending not to be himself. But when the game
has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and
remember that we are all one single Self—the God who is all that there
is and who lives for ever and ever.



For more: http://www.wedietorememberwhatwelivetoforget.com/AlanWatts.html


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: elbisivni]
    #8798845 - 08/20/08 12:37 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

4) May there be credence to this idea of a 'Cosmic Intelligence'? I know this has been covered, but if a religious man can speak of something like this, and a eastern zen-master can speak of respecting sovereignty of a religious icon without allowing authority or monopoly on sovereignty, what does this imply for our religious/spiritual development in an era where instad of telegrams we have IM's and PM's.

Think about all of this disembodied information.
I have no idea who you are.
You have no idea who I am.
And yet our collective entity has shared this information.
A quick google search will show you just how cosmic the intelligence is.



5) Why does the idea of a 'Cosmic Intelligence', outside of your closest idea to 'God'; scare you, make you happy; confuse you; placate you, ect.

It helps me trust that there is a physical guiding force and thus actually relax. Relaxation was not for me before improved cosmic awareness.

It makes me a little useasy because after seeing cosmic pattern I trust the stability of this socio-system less and less. Cosmic curiosity is really the sort of force that drew me into learning hypnosis as well. I consider existential states like meditation, hypnosis, dream, and psychedelic experience to be of cosmic relevance.

Cosmic coincidence


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinenumonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8801341 - 08/20/08 04:56 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango Said:
It makes me a little useasy because after seeing cosmic pattern I trust the stability of this socio-system less and less. Cosmic curiosity is really the sort of force that drew me into learning hypnosis as well. I consider existential states like meditation, hypnosis, dream, and psychedelic experience to be of cosmic relevance.





This is one issue that does bother me extremely in regard to religion. It is based ENTIRELY on the knowledge from previous socio-systems.

For example, the golden rule was written in the bible. Claimed to be original by most of it's devout followers, this has been a mantra as long as recorded history has shown conscious humans with any sense of morals/ethics with parallels to the modern set. Even if the morals/ethics diverge, this golden rule is by no means 'novel' at the time of Jesus. (See Confucius, circa ~500 BCE, or any other of the hundreds of linguistic reflections of this same rule.)

But the regard is cultural, at least in the USA. Credit is given where credit is not due. Where does a man go from being a thoughtful, individualistic sort into...the son of God.

By today's standards, anyone who would claim to be the 'Son of God' would likely be subjected to many tests of polygraph, theism, moral subjectivity, and the most important...social acceptance.

If Jesus were to return now, he would likely be considered a monster, or a homeless folk providing threat of danger to children and adults. The church would wait for something better. The REAL Jesus, with guns and grenades and body armor, RAPTURE Jesus. (I speak only of fundamentalist, literal readers of scripture of ANY religion that is not recent... and recently, Scientology is the ultimately really convincing visual to organized religion and the economic value of such as a marketing tool.

These marketing systems were in place, to some extent, at the time that the 'Roman Catholic Church' came into existence.)

My grandfather comes from a long time ago compared to many members of this community at the Shroomery; yet he allows the differentiation between metaphor and fact/reality to occur based on reason and understanding of past history. Of course Jesus didn't rise BODILY into heaven. How many Judaists would be able to get rich stealing that body, (at the time of death? Many). Especially if the burial was true.

I'm venting at this point, and I'll stop... soon. But the man tried to speak to the people about love and peace and forgiveness and god, (all arguable terms in philosophy, but some prevail over others)... yet this is the world view from so long ago, in which that sort of cultural perspective is a hindering factor when applied to hindsight and current knowledge.

The craving for some past world-view has been close to, and may ultimately be, the death-shot of modern western culture and the US and similar areas. If history in two thousand years reflects on this, the ultimate empires and the necessary ultimate collapse based on dilution and compromise from ideals, they tend to occur. Then why is fundamentalism such a strong force? Because it feels safe. It may not be right, but if it FEELS right, it's right, right?

Why can't we, as people, reconcile what we experience with what we are taught is truth? On a smaller scale, it's understandable. You know, as a truth, that the beautiful middle-school girl is popular; while you as the fat kid is hazed excessively. Your mother tells you the tables will turn.

Well, five years later, you are super-beautiful, (or at least fuckable), the other girl is not liked, despised, and hated for being ego-maniacal. Tables turn.

On a larger scale, however, we have no excuse to not permeate these religious/idealistic/nihilistic lines with similarities instead of fighting over obscurities. We can communicate via screen images. This eliminates otherwise dormant, yet real, prejudice.

So let's save the world, for ourselves. Us, people. C'mon , people now, smile on your brother...

:smile:

Staying static is dangerous. Much more-so when extremists can make a devastating weapon at home and use it, in any way, against the thinkers of society.




~Monk


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMr.Al
Alphabet soup
Male


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,380
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: numonkei]
    #8801401 - 08/20/08 05:09 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

God is like unto the pasteurized, colonized, bulk substrate.  We are as the trippy mushrooms growing out of the substrate.  We all have the same source and are made of the same essential materials.  The individualized sparks of consciousness all become bonfires once they merge again with the source from which they came.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
You are under arrest!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 44,781
Loc: Urban Jungle
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8801422 - 08/20/08 05:14 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

"like unto"

Is this the way you speak in your daily conversations?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8801426 - 08/20/08 05:14 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Verily!  :smile:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
You are under arrest!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 44,781
Loc: Urban Jungle
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: Veritas]
    #8801431 - 08/20/08 05:16 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Orgonally!


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMr.Al
Alphabet soup
Male


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,380
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8801444 - 08/20/08 05:20 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Just some religious humor friend.  Don't worry I don't take myself too serious.  Unlike some people.....  To answer you r question yes.  The God subject is something that religion has screwed up royally.  God is found within, not with out.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8803526 - 08/21/08 01:19 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

It may not be right, but if it FEELS right, it's right, right?

The only 'right' is the one we believe.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 10,347
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 8 hours, 23 seconds
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8804664 - 08/21/08 11:21 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Of course intelligence is universal, we're all part of the same whole.  All knowledge is just a part of this universe, with each intelligent mind being a pocket in God's infinite coat.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMr.Al
Alphabet soup
Male


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,380
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: xFrockx]
    #8804919 - 08/21/08 12:07 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

It is like consensus reality is living on the surface.  The God stuff is in the depths and that appears to be what we are evolving towards.  As far as beliefs are concerned, the  whole thing seems a lot stranger than any simplistic belief model my limited hardware can come up with. Observing a tibetan mandala with some lucy showed this universe to be a fractal image of a greater whole.  That was before I saw anything about the "fractal universe" online.

"As above, so below???".  Religion is polluted, but you can find some useful stuff.  Kinda like picking through a junkyard, you can find some older model parts for free...

A psychedelic colored labcoat?  That would be fun for the festies. That and a chicken mask.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 13,390
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 35 minutes
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: numonkei]
    #8806771 - 08/21/08 07:14 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

To really get at process thought in a Christian theological contect, you really should read A.N. Whithead, but even moreso Charles Hartshorne's A Natural Theology for Our Time, and Cobb & Griffin's Process Theology.

I am not going to summarize these books since I read them in seminary 30 years ago, but you should first acquaint yourself with some definitions:
theistic
pantheistic
panentheistic

However, before you even do that, get yourself an attitude adjustment about 'old' philosophers. I just purchased a collected works of Plato, and I am reveiwing Plotinus, the Neoplatonist who formed a complete system out of Plato's scattered sayings and works. Plotinus wrote about 200 CE and influenced Christianity more than any other single philosopher. He also has influence on Islam and Kabbalistic Judaism. As one person said: "Plato IS philosophy, everone else is just a footnote." A gross exaggeration, but if you think 75 years makes these modes of thought obsolete, then you don't have a feel for the invariant and timeless themes that philosophy seeks to explicate.

In what Huxley called "The Perennial PhilosophY," Cosmic Consciousness is best manifested through certain personages. Jesus is the person whose tradition your grandfather was raised in. Jesus may epitomize Cosmic Consciousness to the greatest degree for a number of philosophical and theological reasons. The personal dimension of God is recognized in Christ, and God is at least personal, because humans can not love or be in relationship to an Impersonal Absolute, or a Transpersonal Absolute. Thinking, feeling, talking with God in prayer is an outward manifestation of a wordless [comm]union with Ultimate Reality that happens between human being and its source in Being.

Technology has nothing to do with philosophy or theology - that perception only reveals how identified you are with temporal developments in the world of form, not the eternal in the temporal. Electronic gadgetry has done nothing to touch the depth of human beinghood, just the surface structures which include the shallow social structures whose existential alienation just keeps sucking people from their own depths into a world of the pleasure and power principles - the illusion - Plato's cave - the land of bullshit. But his is an opinion, although Ken Wilber and some other contemporary philosophers who are on the same page would agree. The Existentialist would NOT agree.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8809350 - 08/22/08 04:21 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Don't be so absurd. Technology afforded you and your beautiful wife to live like kings in your own self created paradise. Had you lived in the Medieval times, you would not have an extensive library to read about [previously] ancient hidden knowledge, in comfort. And if you plan on sticking around in 20 years, I'm confident your view will change, at least slightly. In fact, in a few years, you'll be able to print some Persian tile work on wood if you want, and lay those around your house... doesn't sound too bad to me, if you ask.

To say you are not attached to technology at all is a limited, dishonest view.

In fact, I would wager that because of technology the human race as a whole has become more enlightened considering only the amount of information that has become available.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8809678 - 08/22/08 08:23 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
"like unto"

Is this the way you speak in your daily conversations?




"Methinks"  "uh-huh"

Same question.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 13,390
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 35 minutes
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: psyka]
    #8811852 - 08/22/08 05:46 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't say anything about attachment. Of course I am egoistically attached to my standard of living inasmuch as I am identified with my embodied ego-mind.
What I said was that technology has nothing to do with the deep values that philosophy and theology attempt to understand or at least to symbolize (in order to practice some ritual-symbolism which embodies a Mystery which cannot be understood rationally).

What you just did was to interpret my post, project your quick interpretation onto me, and then react to your own projection! It's called Projective Identification.

If you want clarification, ask for it. You're just being reactive. On the other hand, perhaps you are an Existentialist and believe that your essential being IS all the 'stuff' that your outer life is about, and your attachments to those outer things. I (as ego) would be devastated if a hurricane razed my home, for example, but that devastation is not going to touch my core values or annihilate the insights around which my core values formed. The same thing with my Lady, if she predeceases me. My core values will not be touched. Impermanence is not news. I will not stop self-examining my life or abandon Compassion as human essence because my ego has taken a beating.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
You are under arrest!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 44,781
Loc: Urban Jungle
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8812386 - 08/22/08 07:41 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, that is the way I speak. Mayhaps this image of me will clear things up for you.



--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,439
Loc: mumuland
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8814369 - 08/23/08 06:40 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

the difference between you and a pomo existentialist is that you believe you (and others) have a core


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 13,390
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 35 minutes
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8814612 - 08/23/08 09:52 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, true...and my 'core' your 'core' and everyone's 'core' is the Atman, before the word became overlayed with egoic misunderstanding. That is to say, our 'core' opens up into Infinity, it is the Infinite in the finite, and the Heart Cave is its 'portal.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Whitehead - Universal Intelligence and God [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8814614 - 08/23/08 09:53 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Not my core. Speak for yourself. My core is the BatMan. And I have just as much chance of being correct as you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Seeds Store Buy Cannabis Seeds, Buy CBD   Amazon Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* God's sovereignty and man's free will
( 1 2 all )
Frog 1,532 26 04/25/04 10:37 AM
by Protester
* When will you all understand? There is no god!
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 all )
Fliquid 16,967 263 09/22/11 12:30 PM
by Cactilove
* Religion and God
( 1 2 3 all )
RandalFlagg
2,610 40 09/19/03 03:49 PM
by Clover
* Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
( 1 2 3 all )
falcon 2,397 41 09/16/03 03:17 PM
by gnrm23
* What is intelligence?
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 1,315 32 11/15/03 12:01 AM
by ZenGecko
* Intelligent Design
( 1 2 all )
djd586 2,445 22 12/18/03 05:32 PM
by fireworks_god
* Trance Music and god johnnyfive 1,201 18 03/15/03 04:53 PM
by Strumpling
* Primordial Intelligence Source 2,610 15 04/22/04 03:38 PM
by seeker

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,253 topic views. 2 members, 3 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
SoulSpeciosa Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2018 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.04 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 18 queries.