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 elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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 All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. 
#8797304 - 08/19/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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But what happened before they began? What is the relation between the before-life and the after-life?
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If there was nothing before, then what's supposed to make me believe that there's something after? Perhaps the gift of consciousness prohibits the ability to fathom non-existence of consciousness.
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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: elbisivni]
#8797319 - 08/19/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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This leads me to think that reincarnation is very possible. If I was nothing before, and now am living, and will presumably be nothing after death...what's stopping me from coming into another life as I have this one?
As far as I know, I've got a 100% success rate of becoming life out of nothingness.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8797346 - 08/19/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nice logic. 
There was a creepy feeling of familiarity, of having "been here before" when I first broke through on DMT, which leads me to believe that's what my life was like before I was, you know, alive.
Or, just as likely, DMT makes you totally crazy! 
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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
#8797357 - 08/19/08 05:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe that's caused by the same brain mechanism that triggers déjà vu. Whether it's a realistic sensation or not, who knows?
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
#8797399 - 08/19/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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High doses of LSD always give me that eerie sensation that I've been somewhere before, and that everything that is happening has occurred exactly the same at some prior point in time.
LSD and mushrooms sometimes have given me the sensation of remembering glimpses before my birth, though they could be just hallucinations. I remember one time on a high dose of mushrooms having the feeling of a consciousness around my crown chakra split from the consciousness around my physical body, at which point I had the feeling of being contacted by spirits who told me, "When you came into this life..." Well, I forget exactly what they said, but it was quite a glimpse into a realm of consciousness much more aware than all the minds of this universe, though some mystics would say we still connect through the crown chakra.
Other than subjective experiences through meditation or hallucinogenic drugs, you're not going to really experience what happened before your birth, and even if you do you don't know if it's real.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Ravus]
#8797416 - 08/19/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, I would assume the familiarity present in earthshattering psychedelic trips is there simply because you're looking at (or blasting through) your own thought processes. The bizarreness comes from the fact that these processes are typically invisible, even if they are always present.
I just felt like sharing my first reaction. 
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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.
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 Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8797670 - 08/19/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
This leads me to think that reincarnation is very possible. If I was nothing before, and now am living, and will presumably be nothing after death...what's stopping me from coming into another life as I have this one?
Who is this I who became I?? Who has been before and will be again??
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Lion]
#8798648 - 08/19/08 09:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I imagine the after and before life would be similar.
The picture that comes to mind for me in the afterlife is the fading into relative omniscient awareness. I picture death as being the simultaneous experience of your full life before your eyes in its self-encompassment. I imagine the universe would take on different dimension, but that it would be recognizable. It seems like your beliefs of the afterlife would somehow be connected to your afterlife experience, but I do not picture a simple dogmatic relationship.
I imagine practice with expanded awareness techniques could lead to a better experience as you transitioned into death. It seems like any state you entered after that would likely be relative to your entirety.
I've never died before.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Lion]
#8798747 - 08/19/08 10:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
This leads me to think that reincarnation is very possible. If I was nothing before, and now am living, and will presumably be nothing after death...what's stopping me from coming into another life as I have this one?
Who is this I who became I?? Who has been before and will be again??
These replies don't help me. I understand that my true essense is simply the entirety of the universe, but when "I" say "I", "I'm" referring to my current body/self.
If I am not an individual, why then don't I experience everyone's point of view instead of simply my own?
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Kupo
Kupop!
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 11 years, 1 day
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8798905 - 08/19/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Isn't your point of view just a large collection, a database of sorts, of views taught to you by those before you?
And before them..and before them..and before them..
So you're in the 1st person right now.. maybe someday you'll hop into 3rd ?
I dunno man, I dunno.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8798924 - 08/19/08 10:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
If I am not an individual, why then don't I experience everyone's point of view instead of simply my own?
We have learned to shield our "eyes".
You can always see all points of view, but you have learned to discount them. It's called "disbelief".
It's not actually a way to prevent belief, it just categorizes it as one we choose not to see or expand upon- but it helps keep information overflows away.
Keep in mind that every word you bring into your mind causes a spectral fire of linguistic association. You evoked notions of your ego with three words in that one sentence alone. The sort of way we are told to speak has a significant influence on how we are allowed to picture reality. It would be hard to picture reality without the constant repetition of ego-assertion.
(And when you type things out in ways that defy ordinary thought, people don't even respond to your posts!  )
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#8798936 - 08/19/08 10:57 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
If I am not an individual, why then don't I experience everyone's point of view instead of simply my own?
We have learned to shield our "eyes".
You can always see all points of view, but you have learned to discount them. It's called "disbelief".
It's not actually a way to prevent belief, it just categorizes it as one we choose not to see or expand upon- but it helps keep information overflows away.
Keep in mind that every word you bring into your mind causes a spectral fire of linguistic association. You evoked notions of your ego with three words in that one sentence alone. The sort of way we are told to speak has a significant influence on how we are allowed to picture reality. It would be hard to picture reality without the constant repetition of ego-assertion.
(And when you type things out in ways that defy ordinary thought, people don't even respond to your posts! )
This is all true. When I said point-of-view, though, I ment it quite literally. I see out of "my" eyes, hear through "my" ears, etc. Are you saying it is possible for me see through another body's eyes if I only believe?
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Kupo]
#8798941 - 08/19/08 10:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrspirit2 said:
Isn't your point of view just a large collection, a database of sorts, of views taught to you by those before you?
And before them..and before them..and before them..
So you're in the 1st person right now.. maybe someday you'll hop into 3rd ?
I dunno man, I dunno.
I imagine we probably started in third person.
It would be better for a civilized man to encourage first person though.
A spirit more tightly bound to flesh will feel the pain of punishment more sharply.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#8798947 - 08/19/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ExplosiveMango said:
I've never died before.
No, but you were pre-born..
*queue spooky noises*
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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8798989 - 08/19/08 11:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
This is all true. When I said point-of-view, though, I ment it quite literally. I see out of "my" eyes, hear through "my" ears, etc. Are you saying it is possible for me see through another body's eyes if I only believe?
We are a being of thought fused with a being of physicality through a channel called believe which is both thought and physical.
If you were to bend your belief into a shape where the reality represented was not the one outside your eyes, then you would believe it so. This sort of experience is not common in sober waking reality, but would be reasonable to have during dream or drug.
It is possible to be immersed in so much belief that your universe would be entirely unrecognizable in terms of "sounds" and "ears" and "you". I don't recommend it, but this state may be attainable with perhaps 150 tabs.
Sure, the other bubbles of "consciousness" in "humans" might still go on in consensus without you, but relativity will be on your side too.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#8799000 - 08/19/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
This is all true. When I said point-of-view, though, I ment it quite literally. I see out of "my" eyes, hear through "my" ears, etc. Are you saying it is possible for me see through another body's eyes if I only believe?
We are a being of thought fused with a being of physicality through a channel called believe which is both thought and physical.
If you were to bend your belief into a shape where the reality represented was not the one outside your eyes, then you would believe it so. This sort of experience is not common in sober waking reality, but would be reasonable to have during dream or drug.
It is possible to be immersed in so much belief that your universe would be entirely unrecognizable in terms of "sounds" and "ears" and "you". I don't recommend it, but this state may be attainable with perhaps 150 tabs.
Sure, the other bubbles of "consciousness" in "humans" might still go on in consensus without you, but relativity will be on your side too.
What makes "my" bubble of consciousness MINE, though? 
I do get what you are saying. I guess I just find it hard to understand why subjectivity even exists. 
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whatiamidoing
Stranger
Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 80
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8799420 - 08/20/08 02:18 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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read Bardo Thodel (Tibetan Book of The Dead)
one of my peak mystical experiences I had on acid was EXACTLY like what this text describes of the post-life journey, it also felt very familiar, as if I had been there many times before.
i'm convinced there is no death, death = rebirth, beginning is the end, alpha omega. I suppose the moment in between dying and rebirth, that perfect moment of bliss, joy, understanding, the cosmic dance, is what you would call God.
but then again, i'm just talking shit, who really knows what its really like?
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: elbisivni]
#8799970 - 08/20/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
elbisivni said:
But what happened before they began? What is the relation between the before-life and the after-life?
-----
If there was nothing before, then what's supposed to make me believe that there's something after?
That is a good question. I think the after-life is given more attention because we still stand to gain something if there is such a thing. It's not just a curiosity, it's a hope.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8800012 - 08/20/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
These replies don't help me. I understand that my true essense is simply the entirety of the universe,
How do you know this? Are you sure of this? Quote:
but when "I" say "I", "I'm" referring to my current body/self.
Is there a difference between your body and your self? Are you your body?
Quote:
If I am not an individual, why then don't I experience everyone's point of view instead of simply my own?
I didn't say you weren't. Just trying to probe a little deeper, that's all. It doesn't hurt to ask questions like these.
--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: elbisivni]
#8800035 - 08/20/08 08:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
elbisivni said:
But what happened before they began? What is the relation between the before-life and the after-life?
-----
If there was nothing before, then what's supposed to make me believe that there's something after? Perhaps the gift of consciousness prohibits the ability to fathom non-existence of consciousness.
How do you do any more then purely speculate on something that you have no evidence of? But if you're after speculation. I think everything goes blank.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#8800451 - 08/20/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
What makes "my" bubble of consciousness MINE, though?
Is it what I believe?
I do get what you are saying. I guess I just find it hard to understand why subjectivity even exists.
I know what you mean (<-- I feel the sensation your words bring). It's interesting because when things approach infinite possibility, there becomes an infinitely low possibility of your point being received in the same arrangement you picture it in.
It's interesting how we subliminally couple the notion of 'understanding of ideas' with 'convergence of ideas'.
I believe every person has many selfs within, every person themself is a self, and every combination of people ever to interact is a self.
It would be a useful belief that your current self was a consciously pretensed version of you acting your shroomery story.
It would be a useful belief that your current self was the entirety of your body and external awareness.
It would be a useful belief that your current self was everything you knew, as you remember typing this from different hands.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Icelander]
#8800566 - 08/20/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How do you do any more then purely speculate on something that you have no evidence of?
By imagining that it is somehow possible for things to 'not' be, and then quantifying existing speculation into how much it 'is' and 'is not', and defining your own speculation based on these divisions.
Quote:
Icelander said:
But if you're after speculation. I think everything goes blank.
And your belief is now justified, and your justification is now an illusion through which we can share your belief.
(if we are not before or during speculation  )
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#8800583 - 08/20/08 11:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe my belief is justified to you, whatever that means? And I don't believe it I suspect it. I do this because of the lack of evidence. This is all so basic. What I do belive however is that it is unknowable. This is because there seems to be some evidence for this stance.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Icelander]
#8800837 - 08/20/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Maybe my belief is justified to you, whatever that means?
It means I recognize you're right. To believe is to see, I won't block your view.
(It means I recognize your right.) To believe is to see, I won't block your view.
Quote:
And I don't believe it I suspect it. I do this because of the lack of evidence. This is all so basic. What I do belive however is that it is unknowable. This is because there seems to be some evidence for this stance.
You believe you only suspect it now?
I suspect you'd be able to believe.
Lack of evidence could make you vulnerable. Your precaution is no doubt the fruit of your experience. This is all quite basic, you are basically right.
Is it more true to believe that something can not be known? Or to believe that you believe it can not be known? They both tie you up in your statement, but the second way you can at least see how it could be not.
Do you believe the evidence makes your stance stronger.
Why, not question.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: All this talk about what happens after our lives end.. [Re: Lion]
#8801689 - 08/20/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
These replies don't help me. I understand that my true essense is simply the entirety of the universe,
How do you know this? Are you sure of this? Quote:
but when "I" say "I", "I'm" referring to my current body/self.
Is there a difference between your body and your self? Are you your body?
Quote:
If I am not an individual, why then don't I experience everyone's point of view instead of simply my own?
I didn't say you weren't. Just trying to probe a little deeper, that's all. It doesn't hurt to ask questions like these.
I'm not sure of anything. It just makes sense, though. I am not *the* point of the universe, I am simply *a* point.
Am I my body? I don't know, that's what I'm trying to figure out. 
No problem with probing, of course. I didn't mean to sound harsh.
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