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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8890075 - 09/07/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Especially the USA, who can't even manage to keep secret the goings on at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, or the illegal domestic wiretapping in the ATT/NSA wiretap room, or the illegal torture extradition flights by the military, but somehow they have managed to keep totally contained every last tiny scrap of hard, conclusive, once-and-for-all verifiable evidence of ET visitation despite 100 years of the press and a slew of nut cases trying to find it.

And since ET only crashes in Roswell but never on another country that hates the USA and would love nothing better than to be the first to show off a gen-u-ine ET, it all makes sense to this critical thinker.

Yeah, I'm convinced now... :what:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8890416 - 09/07/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

They certainly don't help the situation.

Most governments decide to keep quiet where possible because they do no wish to admit there are things in their airspace which are out of their control.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
    #8890446 - 09/07/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

slew of nut cases




This tells me more about your opinion than anything else.

Theres "nut cases" in any subject.  If you blanket such a huge range of phenomena all into one section within your mind then you cannot possibly think critically about it.

I often see you address the phenomena in this way yet when I produce a fact such as pilot sightings and radar corroboration or the hospitalization of Stephen Michilak then you are quiet.

I'm presenting the good evidence - I'm not here to talk about heavens gate cult or any other crazy people.  I'm presenting reliable witnesses and the best physical evidence that exists.

Quote:


once-and-for-all verifiable evidence of ET visitation




Why don't critically think about this?

What would constitue a
Quote:

once-and-for-all verifiable evidence of ET


and why would anything advanced enough to get here leave it on Earth?

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8890480 - 09/07/08 11:17 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You do have witness, but there are only a few thousand of them, which is not alot at all.  Regardless; witness, no matter how smart or respected, dont constitute scientific evidence.

And you dont, contrary to what you say, have any physical evidence at all.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8890781 - 09/07/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Of all the UFO BS that I have seen, this is one of the few that leaves me wondering...



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
    #8891300 - 09/07/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
And since ET only crashes in Roswell but never on another country that hates the USA and would love nothing better than to be the first to show of a gen-u-ine ET, it all makes sense to this critical thinker.




Indeed. All it takes is a UFO to crash in a country with a sympathetic government we'd have all the evidence we'd want. But somehow the UFOs only visit countries whose governments want to suppress the existence of ET.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8892097 - 09/07/08 05:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Whats to say a craft would crash or the country would tell other countries?

You need to take every single incident individually.  People seem to disregard the whole phenomena because of the general consensus of ridicule and because people have hoaxed UFO events.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8892172 - 09/07/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Radar tapes, radiation, scars, video is physical evidence.  Its not solid proof.  Solid proof is not likely to happen until an ET hands itself in to the scientific community to study and declare real.  Thats not very likely.

If you study the phenomena properly it becomes painfully obvious that there is an ET presence.  Theres simply no other logical explanation.  Take the Belgium sighting or the Ruwa, Africa sighting.  These simply cannot be passed of as hoax, delusion, misidentification etc 

The next generation will laugh at how society did not notice all these events going on.  How we suppress them so we don't have to throw out our security blanket.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Seuss]
    #8892213 - 09/07/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting video, but then why would ET interfere with some missile launches and not others? Why interfere with some missile launches, but not the recent ones by North Korea, or a thousand others by various governments around the world? Why would they interfere with some missile launches, but not two atomic bombs dropped on Japan?

As for the film referred to in the video? Lens flare? Non-homogenous emulsion on the film? A real ET? Who knows? The film is secret and amazingly, not one frame has ever been leaked by the same government that can't seem to keep anything else secret.

What makes even less sense is some military photographer talking about an observation he was explicitly ordered never to speak about (around 8:00 on the video), who here is speaking about exactly that on national TV.

Do you know how long it would take to land in a military prison for talking about something classified as a secret by the military and about which you're on record as being ordered not to talk about? Not very long, I suspect, but here we have someone claiming to do just that on CNN.

Occam's Razor: all else being equal, simple, straightforward explanations are more likely to be correct than complicated ones.

And once again, billions of cell phone cameras are now on the planet. Most of them can take sharp stills and video. Yet blurry could-be-anythings are all we have to show. Like I said, the reason is simple. When it's far enough away that you don't know what it is, it's ET. When it gets close enough that you can tell it's a bird, the image is deleted with a shrug. It's selection bias defined.

And to repeat myself once again, the critical thinker realizes that there were no ET abductions before Hollywood invented ET movies. Maybe that's because ET coincidentally showed up on Earth around the same time as Marilyn Monroe. Hell, maybe she was from Andromeda, but more likely the truth is that imagination is easily stirred up by good movies.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
    #8892287 - 09/07/08 06:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> not one frame has ever been leaked by the same government that can't seem to keep anything else secret.

To be fair, the military is pretty good at keeping secrets, compared to the inept government.  Look at the history of the SR71 as a classic example.  Find a picture of the Aurora as another example.  (ok, there are a few photos of vapor trails, but not much more)

> Lens flare? Non-homogenous emulsion on the film? A real ET? Who knows?

Exactly.  However, the two guys that aren't writing books along with several witnesses throughout is what kind of left me wondering.  My guess would be non-ET before ET, but as far as an example of something I can't immediately explain, this one is high up on my list.  (not that my list is very big)

One thing that puzzled me a bit... the rate at which the "light" goes from the object to the warhead.  It has a slow propagation rate, almost as if it were drawn in, where it should be instantaneous if actually "light".  Perhaps an object that came off the missle, while still attached via wire, reflecting light as it spins?

Still, for me, this is one of the few "better ones" that is hard to discredit immediately as fraud.  If I were forced to make a guess, I would guess intentional misinformation by the military as part of a campaign to hide whatever secret military stuff they were working on.  (i.e. it wasn't a plane crash, it was a ufo, etc...)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
    #8892293 - 09/07/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Occam's Razor: all else being equal, simple, straightforward explanations are more likely to be correct than complicated ones.




The simple answer is UFO appears and all missiles shut down.

You started saying why would they do that.  Why don't they shut down other missiles.  Why would someone sworn to secrecy talk.  Thats complicating it.

ET explaination is the simple explaination in some cases.  Its not simple to claim ellaborate hoaxes or mass delusion that would be required to explain away something like the Belgium UFO.  The simple answer is that an advanced craft was present.  It displayed technology far beyond anything we have and was likely to be of non-human origin.

Or does your superior critical thinking tell you that this is a bird?


--------------------

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8892664 - 09/07/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

My superior critical thinking skills tell me that is yet one more fuzzy pic of a could-be-anything. :razz:

--

The So-called Belgian UFO Wave: A Critial View

by Marc Hallet

May, 2005
Many people who once believed in UFOs do not believe in them any longer. In contrast with a vast number of credulous people who believe in anything that gets into print, these former-UFO believers have started to check, systematically, the validity of the testimonies and of the literature that constitute the "UFO phenomenon". Their doubts have increased constantly. Indeed, as soon as one starts digging a little deeper into this matter, it becomes clear that ufology is unsubstantiated. Consequently, each year, more and more reputed ufologists admit that they have erred or were on the wrong track; after what they join the rank of the ex-ufologists. This important fact is generally ignored by those who believe in extraterrestrial UFOs and is often censored or falsely explained by the ufologists themselves.

One enters and stays "in" ufology just as if it were a cult, sheltered from any hard facts that could trigger a process of disbelief. Ufology is scientific neither in its methodology nor in its achievements. The so-called "Belgian UFO wave" is a fine example of that...

During quite a few years, SOBEPS, a private Belgian UFO organization, tried to convince the academic world that it had adopted a scientific attitude concerning the study of UFOs. In 1991, a few dozen Belgian scientists accepted to listen -without prejudice- to the "evidence" put forward by the main promoters of that group. These scientists came out both disappointed and unconvinced that UFOs haunted Belgian skies. Yet, three months later, the secretary-general of SOBEPS claimed on a French television channel: "scientists are joining us en masse." It was of course more than an ordinary exaggeration! (1)

In October 1991, SOBEPS published a first book about the alleged Belgian UFO wave; this book was entitled "Vague OVNI sur la Belgique" (UFO wave over Belgium). It will be referred to as "VOB" further in this article.

Ten Belgian scientists from the Universities of Liège and Bruxelles reacted very rapidly to the book and issued a press-release in which they criticized its content and professor Meessen's work in particular. Undoubtedly, there would have been many more than ten, had it not been for the urgency of drafting this rebuttal. (2)

In spite of this, SOBEPS leaders continued to claim that Belgian scientists took their work seriously. The crude fact is that, since the publication of their first report, SOBEPS collaborators have never been invited by any university in Belgium to defend their point of view and no highly respected Belgian scientist has joined the SOBEPS team or approved its conclusions. Yes, sometimes SOBEPS collaborators have lectured in university auditoria, but it was because they had hired these places as some private groups can do it and not because they had been invited by academic authorities. Yes, SOBEPS has kept in contact with the "gendarmerie" (a police force having then a military status) in order to get information about UFO sightings, but, in Wisconsin for example, a UFO organization founded by contactee Charlotte Blob has the same "privilege." Evidently, this is not a reason to recognize a UFO organization as a serious research partner. Authorithies accept to collaborate with UFO organizations because they realize now that the information they supply has little value. (3)

Let us examine the "hard facts" which received international publicity through SOBEPS...

First of all there are the "mysterious" radar signals recorded on board a F-16 on March 30-31, 1990. An incident which received world-wide publicity.

A physicist, Professor Meessen (now retired), who joined SOBEPS when it was founded in 1971 and who was convinced from the start that UFOs are from another world, has spent several months studying these recordings (4)

In VOB, professor Meessen wrote:

    "The conclusion that logically imposes itself is that ANY HYPOTHESIS OTHER THAN THAT OF UFOs IS TO BE EXCLUDED AT VIRTUALY ONE HUNDRED PERCENT (emphasis in original text)."

He also wrote:

    "...I think the only reasonable hypothesis is that of unidentified flying objects, the performances of which indicate an extraterrestrial origin." (5)

This is what ten Belgian scientists referred to in their press-release as an extravagance. According to them, there were several inconsistencies in the analysis conducted by this physicist and one of these scientists even told me that no university student would ever pass with honours for such an ambiguous work, full of contradictions.

It is important here to underline that the F-16 pilot saw no UFOs at all. I spoke with some of his friends who had laughed with him about the UFO hypothesis. Had it not been for the SOBEPS team, these so-called mysterious radar returns would have been labeled as ordinary "angels".

[Diploid: as a pilot for some 20+ years, I have some flown many radar-equipped aircraft and am personally familiar with the artifacts caused by changes in the radar beam's polarization, among other things, after it's reflected. Nothing special here. Radar angel artifacts have been known since the very first prototypes were tested in the lab in the 1940s.]

Another important thing is that at one point the "return" remained unchanged on the screen while the plane was maneuvring, which is indicative of an instrument failure. This is also what Lieutenant-Colonel Salmon from the Belgian Air Force Electronic War Center remarked when he was interviewed by journalists of Science & Vie Junior in 1992. And this is also what I had written in an article that the ten scientists had chosen to add to their press-release in October 1991. (6)

Now, SOBEPS has published a second voluminous "report" about the so-called "Belgian UFO wave". Not very surprisingly for those who were well informed, compelled as he was by the hard facts, professor Meessen distanced himself from his previous conclusions and admitted that very peculiar atmospheric conditions were probably the cause of the F-16 radar incident. He did it with a lot of verbose explanations, but he did it. (7)

Meessen's first conclusion was given world-wide publicity. Not his laborious retractation!

May I add that in their press-release, in October 1991, the ten Belgian scientists who had criticized professor Meessen's conclusion had already written :

    "The analysis made by Mr. Meessen seems to indicate that it could be a meteorological phenomenon whereas the (supposed) occurrence of subsonic speeds and sudden accelerations made by material objects is far from convincing." (2)

One should take into account that these mysterious signals (from a supposedly 100 % real extraterrestrial UFO!) constituted the ONLY "physical evidence" (not counting the Petit-Rechain picture I shall speak about later) that SOBEPS had gathered for its famous first book which journalists were influenced to announce as the "new bible on UFOs."

In scientific circles, when someone discovers something of interest, a report is drafted and submitted to a scientific publication. Then the article is checked by several referees, returned to the author and proofread until it stands up to stringent scientific standards. Why did professor Meessen choose another way of publication? Why does he prefer always to publish his "scientific UFO studies" in privately published books and magazines or through Internet? Maybe he knows that scientific publications would reject his "demonstrations"...

Here is a sad story about this now retired physicist. In September 1987, in France, a 10 year old boy claimed that he had tape-recorded sounds from a UFO. In what appeared at first sight to be a rigorous scientific study published by SOBEPS, professor Meessen concluded that the sound had such strange characteristics that the child's testimony had to be accepted. But professor Meessen is neither an expert in acoustics nor a radar expert. A CNRS researcher from the Acoustics Laboratory of the University of Provence, France, established that the sound was nothing more than a parasitic sound familiar to radio hams. This researcher commented on professor Meessen's conclusions in the following terms : "a façade of seriousness", "subjectivity" and even "an accumulation of clashing and ill-digested knowledge". The severity of these comments and those of the ten Belgian scientists is such that it should force anyone to question the way in which professor Meessen really conducts his research on UFOs.

Let us now look at the famous picture taken at Petit-Rechain. It was internationally distributed by the SOBEPS team and was used for the covers of the two books which this private organization published about the so-called Belgian UFO wave.

The document depicts a black triangular silhouette against a bluish background supposed to be the night sky. One irregular illuminated surface appears in each corner of the triangle. In the centre there is a luminous spot surrounded by a reddish aura.

There are discrepancies between the photo itself and the testimony of the young man who claims to have taken it. The picture was reportedly taken with a reflex-camera equipped with a 55-200mm zoom lens set at a minimum of 150mm. The photographer alleges that he used a long time exposure (between one and two seconds) and pressed the shutter release button for approximately two seconds. But he also said he simply held the camera with his hands against the corner of a wall. Even if he exaggerated, and the shutter button was pressed only for one second, the object photographed could not have had sharp edges; it would have been completely blurred. On the contrary, the triangular object shows at least one sharp edge. The young man said he saw the enormous object in the company of his girl friend. This second eye-witness was so little impressed by the extraordinary apparition that she didn't even keep her eyes on it! At one instance she said the object left instantaneously and at another time she admitted that she actually never saw it leave. More important: Pierre Magain, an astrophysicist from the Astrophisics Institute of Liège has mathematically demonstrated [Diploid: based on the focal length of the lens and the size of the film] that the size attributed to the object by the young photographer is completely different from what the camera captured. So, one can conclude that the testimonies of the two witnesses are completely irrelevant to the picture.

In this case, SOBEPS "researchers" have conducted a rather strange analysis. First, they tried to obtain a similar picture by using a wooden model. When this failed, they abusively concluded that if the document was a fake, it could only have been obtained by highly sophisticated means. This completed their "analysis". A strange way to do a photographic expertise isn't it?

Later, professor Marc Acheroy, from the Royal Military School, Bruxelles, authorized one of his students to use a digitalized version of this slide to test and increase its skills in computer processing and image enhancement techniques. As professor Acheroy explained to me in a personal letter, he never tried to judge what kind of object had been photographed (a sophisticated plane, a UFO or a model); the main reason why he accepted his student work on this picture was to achieve a better know-how of electronic data system. (9)

Professor Acheroy and SOBEPS have spoken abundantly about that work but few people have seen it. I have made a copy of it and asked for a scientific appraisal from two independent astrophysicists who are expert in image enhancement techniques. Thus, I learned that the digitalization had been so badly made that artefacts had appeared and that the cosine transform technique used by the student had also generated its own artefacts! The whole study was a poor one on a strictly scientific point of view but nevertheless some interesting characteristics emerged. For example, the object appeared to be surrounded by a luminous aura and this aura seemed to emit infrared light, just as if the object had been illuminated from behind by an ordinary spot light. (10)

At the beginning, the testimony of the young photographer was considered unbelievable by the SOBEPS team (11). After having failed to produce a comparable document, their conclusions evolved into a kind of credo that obscured the rather dubious origin of the document. This credo was so strengthened by the analysis conducted by a non-expert in image enhancement technique that they concluded the Petit-Rechain picture showed a real vehicle and that professor Meessen suggested the luminous spots on the slide were true plasma jets created by the magnetohydrodynamic propulsion mode used by the aliens! (12)

Far from sharing this enthusiasm, using very simple technique, astrophysicist Pierre Magain and his colleague Marc Remy from Liège University produced a picture that presented most of the characteristics of the Petit-Rechain slide. Moreover, former-UFO believer Wim Van Utrecht, from Antwerp, obtained also a similar picture with another simple photo-trick technique. These three men have at least proved the lack of imagination and knowledge SOBEPS collaborators have in photo faking.

Even ufologists admit that it is not always possible to prove that a picture has been faked. In this case, several elements seem to indicate a deliberate hoax. But SOBEPS knows there is no definitive proof of trickery and takes advantage of it. This is not a scientific attitude because contrary to what the facts seem to indicate, SOBEPS clearly tries to lead the public to believe that a UFO has really been photographed. This is the kind of argumentation that these UFO believers propose as "scientific evidence".

During the Belgian UFO saga many people observed strange triangular formations in the skies. Some captured them with video cameras. Mr. Alfarano, from Bruxelles, took the most famous one but it is generally unknown that he also claimed to be in telepathic contact with alien entities. Even the SOBEPS now admits that none of these films shows anything strange or inexplicable. Most of them depict ordinary aircraft lights in a triangular configuration. Nevertheless, most of these people were convinced that they had seen the Belgian triangular UFO. In these cases their testimonies could be checked by examination of the filmed images. What about all those cases in which witnesses claimed to have seen a UFO but weren't fortunate enough to capture it on film? Is there any reason to accept that they saw something else than those who filmed ordinary aircrafts? In the absence of relevant data it is often very difficult or impossible to identify what people have seen. SOBEPS takes advantage of this ambiguous situation and concludes that all unexplained observations are related to real UFOs, probably from an extraterrestrial origin. This is unscientific.

One can also doubt about the personal qualifications of the numerous improvised investigators SOBEPS worked with. Some of them were so blinded by their beliefs in UFOs they couldn't even see the most evident things. For example here is a drawing made by a witness and which was published in Inforespace 86 as a true UFO. The testimony and the drawing show evidently it was an ordinary helicopter.



SOBEPS claims that thousands of people saw the Belgian triangle and maintains there is a remarkable COHERENCE in these numerous sightings. This magic word "COHERENCE" introduced by prof Meessen as soon as he worked with SOBEPS has been used again and again by SOBEPS collaborators to try to persuade us that identical objects were seen in Belgium by thousands of people. Look at the two books published by SOBEPS. In many cases, the objects described were triangles; but in all these testimonies, the only point of convergence is the WORD "triangle". In reality all kinds of triangles were described, not only with very different angles but also with very different general structures and lights. In many cases people saw no triangular objects, but a quadrangle with four lights, a sphere or a disc surrounded with lights or even a rectangular platform as big as a football field reminiscent of science-fiction movies. People have also seen flying discs with cupolas, cigar or boomerang-shaped contraptions, symmetrical or asymmetrical complex geometrical shapes, and even something like an oval ship with paddle. That's what SOBEPS calls "COHERENCE"!

A valuable piece of information that SOBEPS chose not to publish is that Jean-Luc Vertongen, head of investigations at SOBEPS since its birth, left the group in December 1993. Since, we became friends and I can state that he now says that there was NO COHERENCE AT ALL in the testimonies that SOBEPS collected from our country over the years. But there is more: according to him, SOBEPS operates like a sect whose collaborators are devoted to the extraterrestrial hypothesis which, for them, offers the only logical explanation for the UFO phenomenon. (14)

Genevieve Van Overmeire succeeded immediately Jean-Luc Vertongen at the head of SOBEPS investigations department. Not for a long time: she left the group soon after and claimed also it worked just like a sect and didn't do a scientific or even serious job. At SOBEPS headquarter, a loud silence answered these grave charges.

I would like now to give you two kinds of examples showing how little serious SOBEPS work was in the case of the so-called "Belgian UFO wave".

On page 74 of VOB one can read the following about the sighting of a strange flying thing which looked like a bird :

    "It was devoided of lights."

Four sentences later we read :

    "Under the wings there were two big white lights and one fixed white light on the nose."

Surely, this text was checked more than once before it got into print. But, apparently, at SOBEPS headquarter they were unable to see this INCOHERENCE. Other examples of the same kind can be found in SOBEPS magazine Inforespace. In issue number 90, published in 1994, the following can be read about a man who was paralysed by a UFO :

    "he was unable to make a gesture."

Yet, on the next page we read:

    "To convince himself he was not dreaming, he pinched himself..."

On the same page (page 9) we are being told that the man though it was impossible to take a picture of the object against the starry sky. Whereas, on page 8, it is said that "not a single star was visible."

Another kind of INCOHERENCE is found in VOB on page 411, where Patrick Ferryn (who is SOBEPS photo-expert) explains that a UFO filmed with a video camera was nothing more than a street lamp. But, on page 280 and 281, in another chapter entitled "The March 12 mini flap" THE SAME UFO RESEARCHER uses this false UFO case as a real one to strengthen his conclusion that there were two real UFOs in the sky that night! And, on page 347 of the same book, physicist Leon Brenig writes about these March 12 sightings telling us that the testimonies "corroborated each other perfectly"! Last but not least, on page 290, speaking about two alleged UFO videos, Michel Bougard wrote :

    "These documents are really astonishing."

The distinguished SOBEPS President too seemed to ignore that one of these two films showed the now famous street lamp identified by the photo expert of his own organization.

That's how SOBEPS worked with ITS so-called "Belgian UFO wave". Surely, that's why they found it necessary to print with striking letters on the back cover of their first book:

    "An objective, rigorous and complete approach: a reference book."

That's how thousands of reader of SOBEPS books and magazines have been deluded.

References

  1. TF1 during a talk-show hosted by Patrick Sabatier, May 24, 1991
  2. La Wallonie, Oct. 26 and 27, 1991 page 9 (+ other Belgian newspapers and radio)
  3. Personal communication from US UFO researcher Richard W. Heiden
  4. SOBEPS : Vague d'OVNI sur la Belgique (VOB), Bruxelles, 1991, p. 358-359
  5. VOB, Bruxelles, 1991, p. 394
  6. Science & Vie Junior, Paris, January 1993, p. 14
  7. VOB 2, Bruxelles, 1994, p. 387-413
  8. OVNI-Présence, Aix-en-Provence, n°40, August 1988, p. 19
  9. Personal letter from Marc Acheroy dated from September 24, 1992
  10. Prof. Acheroy during an interview, RTBF (Belgian public television) June 17, 1992 + VOB 2, Bruxelles, 1994, p. 234-240
  11. VOB, Bruxelles, 1991, p. 414-415
  12. Science & Vie, Paris, March 1976, p. 49
  13. Personal communication from Pierre Magain and Marc Remy + VOB 2, Bruxelles, 1994, p. 229-233
  14. Personnal interviews with Jean-Luc Vertongen + Personal communication from G. Van Overmeire to W. Van Utrecht

The author has published, in French, several more detailed studies on this subject:

  1. La vague OVNI belge ou le triomphe de la désinformation, Liège, privately published, Sep. 1992
  2. L'art de la désinformation, Liège, Privately published, June 1992
  3. La prétendue vague OVNI belge, in Revue Française de Parapsychologie, Toulouse, Vol 1, n° 1, p. 5-24

Also useful:

  1. Magain (P), Le rapport de la SOBEPS, Liège, 1992 (Chapter 5 of an unpublished collective book)
  2. VAN UTRECHT (W), Triangles over Belgium - A case of Uforia?, Antwerpen, Privately printed, September 1992
  3. VAN UTRECHT (W), The Belgian 1989-1990 UFO wave, in UFO 1947-1997 edited by Hilary Evans and Dennis Stacy, London, John Brown Publ., 1997
  4. HENDRICKX (P) : Bepaling van de impulsresponsie van een optisch systeem met als doel de restauratie van gemaakte beelden, Afstudeerwerk voorgelegd tot het bekomen van titel van burgerlijk ingenieur, Brussel, Koninklijke Militaire School, akademiejaar 1991-1992 + Personal communications from Pierre Magain (Astrophysics Institute of Liège) and Ronny Blomme (Royal Observatory of Brussels)

Marc Hallet

Marc Hallet has had an interest in UFOs for more than thirty years. During the first ten years he was convinced of their existence and of their extraterrestrial origin. In 1977 he expressed his first doubts by publishing a paper based on the methods of historical criticism, a methodology no ufologist had used till then. Later, through his books and papers, his readers were able to follow the slow but steady development of his skepticism. Finally, in 1989, he published a penetrating study, appreciated by astronomers, in which he concluded that extraterrestrial UFOs do not exist.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
    #8894824 - 09/08/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Essentially the article is saying the radar returns were a malfunction despite them being picked up on separate ground and air radar systems and corroborating with 140+ witness sightings (the cause of the F-16's chase).

They then go on to discredit witness testimony itself and even suggest that all these witnesses saw was a helicopter.

Thats critical thinking?  I call that wishful thinking.

They also ignore the video and photographic evidence.

Its fair to say if you take each element individually you can break it down.  This is what happens in a court of law but it soon becomes apparent that any fact can be disputed. 

We have to use some common sense here though.  Look at the bigger picture.  Do you really thinks its likely that
1.  The separate radars all had a malfunction or false signal
2.  The 140+ witnesses all misidentified a helicopter
3. The photo and video from separate independent corroborating witnesses was all hoaxed
4. Somehow this all accumulated together at the same time into one big conspiracy just to convince UFO investigators that something happened in Belgium

Is is not more simple to just say its likely there was an unknown craft present?

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8894839 - 09/08/08 05:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

>Is is not more simple to just say its likely there was an unknown craft present?

Yes, because it's true - it is an unknown craft. We don't know for certain what it was. It's a different thing entirely to say it's a known craft of extraterrestrial origin.

Let me turn your statements around:

We have to use some common sense here though.  Look at the bigger picture.  Do you really thinks its likely that
1. Aliens exist and possess interstellar travel technology
2. They know about our planet
3. They actually visit our planet
4. They allow their craft to be photographed and filmed,
5. Yet they don't make any attempt to contact the general population.

Is it not more simple just to say that people can get confused?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8894871 - 09/08/08 05:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Those questions don't help anyone understand why the phenomena is happening.  It doesn't matter if you think aliens exist or interstellar travel exists.

I could think bee's don't exist but I'm wondering why everyone keeps seeing them and the pollen keeps disappearing from my flowers.

Of course, the pictures of bees are faked and the pollen was removed just to trick me into thinking bees were real.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8894887 - 09/08/08 05:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Okay, let's say you haven't seen any bees, but people tell you they are real, and the pollen disappears. That's the only evidence you have.
What's removing the pollen?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (09/08/08 05:35 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8895798 - 09/08/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

OK,
I agree theres no evidence for science but theres enough for common sense if people get past their preconceptions and stigmas and actually research the reliable incidents not the known frauds/cults.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8896820 - 09/08/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, for certain values of 'common sense'. Many people will look at the evidence you have presented and be convinced, but the scientific method, as you have acknowledged, requires a higher standard. So do most people.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineRuNE
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8901418 - 09/09/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
We have to use some common sense here though.  Look at the bigger picture.  Do you really thinks its likely that
1. Aliens exist and possess interstellar travel technology
2. They know about our planet
3. They actually visit our planet
4. They allow their craft to be photographed and filmed,
5. Yet they don't make any attempt to contact the general population.

Is it not more simple just to say that people can get confused?





While I'm 50/50 on the subject, I don't understand what's hard to believe in what you pointed out there.  A good point UFO debunkers tend to make is the sheer chance of finding another source of life in the universe.  It's incredibly tiny. 

Considering they are real, there is the possibility that this advanced species has stumbled upon something very rare in their quest of knowledge across the cosmos...another civilization in the universe.  We are intelligent, but nowhere near their level.  What do WE do to rare species found here on earth?  We tag them, observe them, and let them exist in their natural habitat for study.  I know this is going to be a lame point, but if you watch star trek, they have rules against direct contact with species whom do not posses interstellar space travel.  Yet they observe them for study.  I realize it's a TV show, but none the less they make good points regarding 'moral' decisions like this.

The question is, what would you do if you were in their shoes?  You stumble upon a very rare (possibly the only) civilization in your years of searching, but realize they are still primitive, constantly at war, and power hungry.  Do you contact them?  Do you possibly (or accidentaly) give them access to your very highly advanced technology?

We haven't even figured out how to power our lights without destroying the planet, or killing each other.

>>4. They allow their craft to be photographed and filmed,

a) they can't really do much about it. (I mean, I'm sure they could take out a camera individualy, but taking out multiple electronics without major interference (to all electronics) would be a feat.)

b) they don't mind.  Considering some of the claims (1 mile ship floating low enough to hit with rocks) they might actualy WANT to be seen.  They might be testing our understanding.  We are very lonely in this universe.  Once we figure out that warring between ourselves is pathetic and self destructive, they might say a hello.  They might assume their presence could usher those feelings along. 

This is why I'm still 50/50 on the matter.  I'll see a convincing de-bunking argument, then a month later I'll read a report on a new telescope that can spot planets light years away, and determine if they can support life (I think it's at a 100+ now? I forget).  But wait, didn't we just invent the light bulb in the last 150 years? 

So with around 200 years of technology, we can travel faster than the speed of sound, destroy entire cities with a touch of a button, see millions of light years into space, and send probes to the furthest reaches of our solar system.  What could we do with 1000 years worth of techological development?  How about 3000 years?
The idea of another species who are a few steps ahead in cognitive development and technology doesn't sound so far fetched to me.


--------------------
~Happy sailing~

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: RuNE]
    #8902649 - 09/09/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

>The idea of another species who are a few steps ahead in cognitive development and technology doesn't sound so far fetched to me.

I agree with you to some extent. But my point was that it's disingenuous to list all the separate premises on one side of the argument and then write "Is is not more simple to just say its likely there was an unknown craft present?" on the other. It's selectively glossing over the details to make one side seem like "common sense".


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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