|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8794301 - 08/19/08 06:33 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
> I'm sure theres plenty of legitimate scientists making a lot of money out of books on their research.
Not really. Legitimate scientists tend to publish in journals, for which they make little to no money, or they patent and sell their technology. There are a few exceptions, such as 'A Brief History of Time' and the like, but these are not the norm. When they do publish books, the books tend to be oriented towards other scientists rather than the layperson.
> I mean what evidence is required for it to go from science fiction to fact?
If the implants are real, then it is enough! That is why I went off on the lack of research done on the implants before they are removed. Next time somebody comes in with an implant, get a team of doctors and scientists together from start to end to minimize the chances of fraud.
> Apart from an alien landing on Earth and letting itself be tested by several different respected scientists. Even then, would that be proof?
I think it would be pretty hard to deny, were it to happen. Of course people would be skeptical at first, but it wouldn't take long to prove that it was not a special effects hoax.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
#8796282 - 08/19/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said: What kind of physical traces? Do you have photos of this event? Could the event have a non-extraterrestrial explanation? Can you provide evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that an alien craft landed behind your friend's house?
Physical trace was the indentation left in the long grass where it landed. I have no photos but they would not of helped anyway as theres already hundreds of photographed / videoed events.
There is a possible non-extraterrestrial explanation - that is if the craft was man-made. I'm guessing but I don't think it was because of the characteristics of the vehicle (silently hovering and maneuvering) and the fact that many other credible people have seen similar craft and have met the alien occupants.
I have no idea why that craft would land where it did. We lived in a small village in the middle of no-where. There was acres and acres of farmland around us. Why would anybody land a craft right behind the only houses for miles around? If I was an alien or an advanced human craft pilot, I would of landed a mile away where nobody would of seen us. Whoever owned/piloted that machine must of had a reason for landing there...
And why so many lights on it too? It really is bizarre.
I spose I really do have a gripe about the fact this sort of shits going on and half the world thinks it bull, let alone has a rational explanation. The ET stuff is just my best guess after evaluating all possible evidence.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8796882 - 08/19/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
So what you saw could easily be explained by a man-made craft of a type that you're unfamiliar with. This is a much more credible explanation than the idea that it's extraterrestrial.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
#8796975 - 08/19/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Plus ... and this is not intended as a flame or insult at all... you simply cannot trust your own senses completely. People do hallucinate. People do dream and confuse that with reality. People do think the black man raised the knife when it was in fact the white man (reference to famous psychology experiment). Any of these can happen to rational, intelligent people. So for a scientist to be completely honest, he must acknowledge that his senses and interpretation of them is not sufficient evidence to prove anything (especially when considering phenomenon outside the norm)
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
#8797847 - 08/19/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
It could easily be explained if your willing to disregard the mass of human testimony. People who have experiences the same as mine but actually meet the pilots.
Even if this craft was terrestrial - a whole new can of worms is opened. Who is hiding this super advanced technology and why? Why are they dressing the pilots as aliens? Why are they making themselves visible to civilians?
Quote:
This is a much more credible explanation than the idea that it's extraterrestrial.
Why is it more credible to assume that humans have had advanced anti gravity craft since the early 1900's and dressing the pilots as ETs? Why is it unacceptable to say life exists beyond earth and is visiting us?
This is not based on science. These ideas simply fit preconceived stigmas.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8798592 - 08/19/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
the first thing I do is look to see how many books the person making the claims has published on the topic
Sigh. At least five books and three videos:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=roger+leir&x=0&y=0
He also sells ad space on his web site.
The real clincher is how the 'implants' haven't been presented to a university openly for peer review by real scientists as required by the Scientific Method. Instead, they were given to Derrel Sims, a "hypno-therapist and abduction researcher" who passed them on to "one of the most advanced labs in the world" where they've been carefully kept away from any honest scrutiny. Which lab exactly hasn't been specified.
And then there's this gem:
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/iscni24.html
where our buddy, Dr. Lier, states that the lab findings are "mind-boggling" and that for a small fee, you can subscribe to his newsletter and be boggled too.
All this boggling happened in March 1996. The world is still waiting for Dr. Lier to stop with the story-telling and newsletter-publishing and actually release the physical evidence to real scientists.
Sounds an awful lot like the recent Bigfoot hoax going around. Gullible people are a dime a dozen, and nothing ever changes.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
#8799590 - 08/20/08 04:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
> Gullible people are a dime a dozen, and nothing ever changes.
The problem is that people want to believe in something greater. The desire is wired into our being, somehow. The reason why we have the scientific method is to combat this human trait. I don't blame people for being gullible, but I do get annoyed when people take advantage of gullibility in order to profit. Not only are they taking advantage of others, but they are making it much more difficult for the scientific community to tell the difference between legitimate observation and fakery.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Seuss]
#8799626 - 08/20/08 04:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Exactly, there should be laws against this. You can't go around and make stuff up about people its slander or libel (sp?) but a Dr. can claim that implants contain et isotopes etc to sell a book. That fucking sucks, what an asshole.
I might as well go out and claim Jesus came and sat on my face and blessed me with the magic to cure the world if everyone buys my DVD. Fucking beats a day job I spose.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8799722 - 08/20/08 05:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
> I might as well go out and claim Jesus came and sat on my face and blessed me with the magic to cure the world if everyone buys my DVD.
The sad part is that if you google just a bit, you will find people that fit your example, selling "Jesus cures" and the like.
The bigfoot story in current events is another great example... animal DNA and a rubber suit.
The problem even extends into legitimate scientific research. A resent survey of publishing researchers found that up to 12% admitted to having falsified research results before publication!
I won't completely discredit the implant claims made by Dr. Lier, but I seriously doubt that they are real. Diploid summed up the reasons for my doubts with, "All this boggling happened in March 1996. The world is still waiting for Dr. Lier to ... actually release the physical evidence to real scientists."
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Minstrel
Man of Science



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Seuss]
#8803042 - 08/20/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
There is one much bigger problem to the whole taking ETs thing seriously: why should I care?
If space aliens are visiting earth, we, at least on the whole, don't perceive them to be doing much of anything, so why should it matter? If the only consequence of their existence is that a few dozen oddballs (out of the 6 billion humans) get anal probes at night every once in a while, then they can keep on doing their thing for all I care; it doesn't affect me or how my world functions in the least.
Edited by Minstrel (08/20/08 09:38 PM)
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Minstrel]
#8804155 - 08/21/08 03:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Why should I care that people kill each other? Why should I care that people are starving?
Theres a little thing called compassion that clearly has been lost in this modern egotistical mindset. Being abducted is not going to be a nice experience not matter who is doing it.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8804308 - 08/21/08 06:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
LOL! Nobody's getting abducted. They're just telling stories. It's painfully obvious.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
#8805068 - 08/21/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Really?
Care to explain how a story of a saucer encounter burnt this man and gave him radiation poisoning?
Stephen Michalak
I can give another 100 examples which are painfully obvious that a UFO abduction has occured.
|
DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8805173 - 08/21/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Just because there is some phenomenon whos cause is not immediately obvious, that does not imply at all that there are alien abductions. So the guy has dot shaped radiation burns... that does not imply at all that he was abducted by interstellar aliens and taken on their craft. Thats a non sequitur of epic proportions.
You are taking events whos cause is not immediately obvious, like dot spot man here or your experience with lights... and then making the wild assumption that it must be an alien craft from light years away. That is not scientific.
I once saw crazy lights in the sky I cant explain... There were two of them and they were moving quite fast, and twisting around each other in a helix like shape. Despite the fact that I dont know what they were, there is absolutely no reason to assume they were an alien craft. Unknown cause does not imply alien craft.
You say you can give 100 examples, well thats not that many at all. There are 6 billion people on the planet, Im sure there are more than 100 of those people with weird unexplainable events or characteristics. Its a matter of statistics.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: DieCommie]
#8805473 - 08/21/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
People have been telling abduction stories for decades, but none has ever produced a single microbe with DNA that isn't from Earth (or with no DNA at all). None has ever brought back a single fiber beyond our technology. None has ever brought back ANYTHING AT ALL other than stories full of holes and inconsistencies.
If I so much as walk into the same room you're in, I'd be covered in microbes and fibers from your body and clothing. Forensic investigations have demonstrated that it's virtually impossible to share a room with someone without necessarily taking away evidence of that encounter.
Sure, ET might not use fibers, and might not have germs, but that's a wild assumption that goes against everything we know. In science, we tentatively go with what we know pending new evidence that contradicts and updates that knowledge. We don't make new things up, as in jumping to the conclusion that some guy with red dots was probed by ET.
A guy who, SURPRISE!, made a tidy profit from the book and TV deal (with NBC) that immediately followed the incident.
Your pre-suppositions that red dots equals ET and that lights in the sky are aliens that have never been seen, whose environments contain no microbes and no fibers of any kind, and who can violate one of the most basic and thoroughly-tested principles in science (the light speed limit) are exactly what science is not.
It's because of fantastically unlikely pre-suppositions like these by ET proponents that these things are not taken seriously by scientists, and that should answer your opening question.
I can give another 100 examples
So what? I can give a million examples of people who claim to have seen Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and Bigfoot. Just like your examples, none of them has ever brought back any hard, physical evidence. But stories? They all have stories... and book deals!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Minstrel
Man of Science



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8805889 - 08/21/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
So you'll admit that you feel some remorse for these 'abductees', right? Do you know how people are most easily manipulated?
Via their emotions, no less!
Edited by Minstrel (08/21/08 02:00 PM)
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: DieCommie]
#8806519 - 08/21/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The guy said he experienced these burns as direct result from an apparent exhaust outlet on a landed UFO he investigated. I think common sense can pretty much rule out lies and elaborate hoax.
Its possible the craft was man made but then theres the fact that in most abduction cases the occupants have appeared alien and the technology is apparently very different to anything we know of.
It may not be scientific but when I look at the broader picture emerging from credible cases common sense suggests to me the ET explanation is the most likely explanation.
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Diploid]
#8806535 - 08/21/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
As we are on the subject of scientific method I have to note that your answer is equally reliant upon assumption. Why assume an alien would leave a DNA trace for you to find? Who has even been looking for these traces when the scientific community at large is yet to accept them as worthy of investigation?
If I was abducted, I'd write a book and I'd keep the money. That doesn't disprove the event. It suggests possible ulterior motives but giving oneself radiation poisoning? Thats going to far and is not likely.
Theres also reports from corroborating independent witnesses. Theres reports from children. Theres people who wait until their professional careers are over because they feared losing their jobs. Theres plenty of people who do not sell books or wish fame from their experiences.
|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Minstrel]
#8806546 - 08/21/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Yes I do. I've seen first hand evidence though, that is enough for me and is not manipulation.
I accept its possible some human has kept advanced technology and is orchestrating the alien stuff as a cover but its doesn't seem a very logical answer to me. If they can hide their technology then why not just keep it hidden. There would be no requirement to dress dwarfs in aliens suits and have them act out this shit.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
|
Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
#8806564 - 08/21/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The guy said he experienced these burns as direct result from an apparent exhaust outlet on a landed UFO he investigated. I think common sense can pretty much rule out lies and elaborate hoax.
I don't think it does.
But the scientific method doesn't care what you or I think - it only cares about evidence. Stronger evidence than this.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
|