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InvisibleEgo Death
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Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal?
    #8789645 - 08/18/08 07:22 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)



Theres always been a huge mass of reliable evidence for the existence of ET's already visiting Earth but its always been witness evidence.  The disclosure project is something which is very hard to deny but still doesn't constitute scientific proof as it is just credible witness testimony.

But what about implants in abductees?  The labs which have tested these implants have stated they contain elements of extraterrestrial origin.  The labs were not aware that it was a suspected implant from an abductee.  They came to the conclusion that the material must be from a meteorite.

This is some serious evidence here.  Can we start talking about this in the realms of science yet or are we going to disregard the evidence and enforce our preconceived stigma of the phenomena?


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OfflineDark_globe
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8789677 - 08/18/08 07:50 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

meh, still not convinced, especially when Dr.Leir's claims "have not been independently verified." (as stated by wikipedia which is arguably a less reliable source)


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8789936 - 08/18/08 10:48 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder what an "extraterrestrial element" is. What, is it too 'alien' for them to see how many protons the element  it has? Sounds like bullshit.

Although I believe that there must be life somewhere else in the universe, as there are an estimated 10^22-10^24 stars, I don't think that they're taking people unnoticed and putting triangular shaped asteroids in them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #8790005 - 08/18/08 11:07 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

> I wonder what an "extraterrestrial element" is.

It is sloppy speak for "crystalline structure typically found in meteorites".  In this case, sloppy speak sounds much more like "alien technology".

The full conclusion:

Quote:

The first theory on the origin of these samples was initiated due to the relatively high hardness value obtained for the iron core of sample T1,2. It is well known that very hard iron alloys can be found naturally in meteorite samples. In fact, several characteristics of the specimens are similar to certain meteorite-type materials. Meteorites can be a complex combination of many different elements (see for example, McSween, 1987). This is the case particularly for sample T3, which contains at the very least 11 elements: Na, Al, Si, P, Cl, Ca, Fe, Ni, Cu, Mo & Sn. Typical of iron and stony-iron meteorites is the classic "Widmanstatten structure", consisting of lamelae (plate or needle-shaped crystals) of kamacite (alpha-iron) and/or taenite (gamma-iron), formed during the slow cooling of meteoroids [McSween, 1987; Budka et al., 1996]. Interspersed with the metal grains are other minerals rich in iron and/or nickel such as troilite, FeS, and schreibersite, (Fe,Ni)_3P. Based on my examination, the samples in question could possibly fit into this framework. Elemental analysis done by X-ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (EDS) indicated iron and phosphorus as major constituents of the cladding material surrounding the iron core. The (EDS) patterns resemble those recently reported for iron dendrites found in pockets and veins of the Yanshuang H6 meteorite [Brooks, et. al., 1995]. In addition, I identified a calcium phosphate mineral as a possible phase within the cladding of both samples.Interestingly, chlorapatite, Ca_5(PO_4)_3Cl is among the more common meteorite minerals [Wasson, 1974]. This would account for the presence of a substantial amount of calcium and smaller amount of chlorine detected. A problem with this theory, however, is that no nickel was detected in T1,2 and only a minute amount in T3. It has been stated that "most meteorites contain between 6 and 10 percent nickel"…and "no iron meteorites contain less than five percent nickel" [McSween, 1987]. This may not be a problem after all, since the specimens could be just a small fragment of a larger meteorite body.

An altogether different hypothesis can be formulated based on the fact that these specimens were extracted from an human body. An iron sliver, embedded in human tissue could possibly cause a calcification reaction. This would explain the presence of calcium and phosphorous on the surface of the samples. Chlorapatite and other calcium phosphate minerals are the major component of hard tissue (bones, teeth) along with collagen. In fact, calcium phosphate-based ceramics have been used in medicine and dentistry for nearly 20 years due to their bioactive nature [Hench, 1993]. In light of this, even if the cladding was not formed inside the body, but rather entered the tissue in its entirety as a sliver from a stone, it is not surprising that the body had no adverse reaction to the foreign object.

It must be stressed, these are only theories as to the origin of the specimens in question based on preliminary data and information. More in-depth studies would be required to prove either one.




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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Seuss]
    #8790322 - 08/18/08 12:43 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

So its basically inconclusive again.

Still highly suspicious though.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8790369 - 08/18/08 12:51 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

As far as Im concerned, extraterrestrial aliens visiting us is not even close to going from paranormal to normal.

The implant, though maybe inconclusive, doesn't at all point to alien abduction.  That is a thought superimposed on the implant by people and is nowhere implied by the properties of the implant.


When and if aliens visits are accepted by the scientific community, the evidence will be so apparent that threads like this wont be needed.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8790433 - 08/18/08 01:06 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I think we should maintain a clear distinction between "youtube" and "science".


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8791825 - 08/18/08 06:39 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
This is some serious evidence here.  Can we start talking about this in the realms of science yet or are we going to disregard the evidence and enforce our preconceived stigma of the phenomena?



It always has been talked about in the realm of science. But a lot of people just don't like what science has to say so they choose to disregard it and believe in alien abductions or whatever. Those are the people you should blame for ETs being considered a paranormal phenomenon.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8791866 - 08/18/08 06:50 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Good answer!  It has been scientifically studied before, and people dont like the conclusion.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8791928 - 08/18/08 07:03 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
As far as Im concerned, extraterrestrial aliens visiting us is not even close to going from paranormal to normal.




Huh?  I don't know what you mean.

Quote:

The implant, though maybe inconclusive, doesn't at all point to alien abduction.  That is a thought superimposed on the implant by people and is nowhere implied by the properties of the implant.




So if its only alien abductees that have the implant and the implant appears not to be man-made you think its just superimposed ideas?  Fact is the labs had no idea these guys were abductees.

Quote:

When and if aliens visits are accepted by the scientific community, the evidence will be so apparent that threads like this wont be needed.




No doubt.  Since science doesn't cover common sense.

A person could be raped but have no physical evidence left thus the scietific method would conclude the rape did not happen at all but does that mean in reality that it didn't?


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8791946 - 08/18/08 07:06 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Fact is the labs had no idea these guys were abductees.




Nor did they come to that conclusion.




Your last sentence is completely correct.  The scientific method is not perfect, and is never claimed to be.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8793316 - 08/19/08 12:43 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
A person could be raped but have no physical evidence left thus the scietific method would conclude the rape did not happen at all but does that mean in reality that it didn't?



Er, no. The scientific method would conclude that there is not enough evidence to determine if a rape did or did not happen.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8793398 - 08/19/08 12:55 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, right... good distinction.  You keep nipping it in the bud.  :gethigh:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8794053 - 08/19/08 05:27 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I'm just wondering what its gonna take for science to take it seriously?

SETI discovered signals but it was disregarded as the signal didn't last long enough.
Dr. Lear finds very interesting implants with a strange manufactured composition and containing rare elements usually found on asteroids.
Hundreds of highly credible witnesses get together in the disclosure project to tell the public the truth about ET.

Yet, I still see no proper scientific study of the phenomena.  Why?

Anybody with commen sense can see thats its true that ETs are visiting Earth.  If only one of those hundreds of witnesses is telling the truth then the greatest discovery of our age has happened but is being ignored.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8794065 - 08/19/08 05:37 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

You've already made up your mind that ETs are visiting the earth. That is not a scientific approach, yet you ask others to be scientific about it. I can assure you that they are doing so.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8794096 - 08/19/08 05:57 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

people have allready said that they'll take it seriously when the evidence suggests that extraterrestrials are most likely present.

To conclude that they are present though, I don't think its fallacious to demand a high level of probability that the evidence points to ET's to the exclusion of others.

Where is teh evidence about the probe being from meterites?  Source?  I'm really not interested in the youtube video, so could you point me somewhere?  Has it been published anywhere?


any idea why aliens would put rock in people?  That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense really


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8794122 - 08/19/08 06:19 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

> I'm just wondering what its gonna take for science to take it seriously?

The big problem, in my opinion, is the "signal to noise ratio" of honest and accurate observations compared to the mass of drivel out there.  For every one thing that could be scientifically validated, there are a million things that are exaggerated, faked, or known phenomena.

A great example are these implants.  He makes claims that they give off RF (radio frequencies) while in the "active state" and he uses the RF to find the devices (with a frequency counter no less :rolleyes:).  At this point, rather than proceed to remove the implant, bring in some people to verify the claims.  Before destroying the evidence, by removing it from the body, let others verify the accuracy of the initial observations.  Rather than using DMMs (digital multimeters) and frequency counters, things I have sitting on my workbench at home, get some real lab gear.  Where was the spectrum analyzer, the rf signal meter, the vector network analyzer, etc...

The cynic in me knows that there is a lot of money to be made selling books to truthers.  Money is a huge motivator, and whenever I hear something about the paranormal, the first thing I do is look to see how many books the person making the claims has published on the topic.  In my mind, somebody that profits from the "noise" is immediately a suspect of fraud.

Take the video of the doctor removing the implant as another example.  Right at the climax of the surgery, as he is going to remove the object, what happens?  The camera zooms in, it gets blurry, there is a quick cut (look for the single black frame), then camera zooms back out, and the doctor has an implant that he removed.  I've watched enough surgeries, both on TV and in person to know that he could have easily shown the implant, moved it around while still attached, etc.  Why the fancy slight of hand camera work?  The question in the back of my mind when I noticed this was, "How many books does he have out on the subject?"

Finally, there are obviously a lot of people with implants if one doctor has removed 12+ of them in the last ten years.  Rather than blame science for not being interested, instead assume that science is interested and ask, "Why is nobody else finding implants to remove from their patients?"  Goes back to how many books has this guy written on the topic.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: zouden]
    #8794238 - 08/19/08 07:37 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You've already made up your mind that ETs are visiting the earth.




I've seen overwhelming evidence.  I've seen a craft land behind my friends house.  I don't believe it is secret human technology simply because it was so advanced and other people have reported seeing the exact same craft and their alien occupants for such a long time.  For me to deny it I would have to assume me and my friends had the same hallucination and that all these other people who are seeing the same thing are also hallucinating.  Thats not logical especially considering the fact this craft actually left physical traces where it landed.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Seuss]
    #8794247 - 08/19/08 07:43 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Thats a fair point but I'm sure theres plenty of legitimate scientists making a lot of money out of books on their research.

I'm really asking you guys to help me understand what it would take for proof.  I mean what evidence is required for it to go from science fiction to fact?

Apart from an alien landing on Earth and letting itself be tested by several different respected scientists.  Even then, would that be proof?  After all, we are so used to automatically debunking anything UFO/alien related.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it time to classify ET under science instead of paranormal? [Re: Ego Death]
    #8794252 - 08/19/08 07:49 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

What kind of physical traces? Do you have photos of this event? Could the event have a non-extraterrestrial explanation? Can you provide evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that an alien craft landed behind your friend's house?

These are the sort of questions that comprise the scientific investigation that you are asking for. The problem is that lots of believers have a lower standard of evidence than the scientific method requires. When it really comes down to the nitty-gritty of the investigation, the believers are willing to make leaps of faith that science does not allow.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


Edited by zouden (08/19/08 07:51 AM)


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