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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: My death anxiety [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8797025 - 08/19/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We establish what appears minus subjective interpretations initially, and only interpret after the fact.




Hmmm...I think it would be a very rare person who has the ability to do this...if any human is capable of it at all.  Our perception is colored and edited according to our beliefs about what is important, what is real, what it means, and so on.  What we choose to pay attention to in the first place reflects our bias, so how can we possibly establish anything "minus subjective interpretations"?

It is quite worthwhile to consider the contents of our experiences, and perhaps to compare these contents to the experiences of others in order to better notice the skew of perception.  However, it seems unlikely that we will arrive at the truth of the intangible through  experience--thus "best guess."

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8797179 - 08/19/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

you are right, Veritas
we don't do any mental establishing without full-on projection
(ahem, some people call that "interpretation")

you first have a moment of raw sensation, and after that, everything is moving bits around (timing/spatial wise) and other associations.
from association you get into matches and predictive attitude


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: My death anxiety [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8797207 - 08/19/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
What is interesting about this subject when it comes up, is the assumption that one will know they have died and they believe the will experience suffering the loss of them self from this plane.

That suggests to me, people must have some inherent subconscious knowledge, memory, understanding that their conscious awareness will remain after physical death.



Or maybe it's denial?


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8797209 - 08/19/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, and all of that seems to occur below the level of our awareness, so it appears that we are taking in a "pure" stream of data from our environment.  IMO, there is no way for humans to directly experience reality, because our perception is always "based on a true story." 

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8797214 - 08/19/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What is interesting about this subject when it comes up, is the assumption that one will know they have died and they believe the will experience suffering the loss of them self from this plane.

That suggests to me, people must have some inherent subconscious knowledge, memory, understanding that their conscious awareness will remain after physical death.

Where else would such ideas come from? Think about it.


Death anxiety itself could create this idea in us. I have no belief in an afterlife that I know of and yet I have plenty of death anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8797255 - 08/19/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, and all of that seems to occur below the level of our awareness, so it appears that we are taking in a "pure" stream of data from our environment.  IMO, there is no way for humans to directly experience reality, because our perception is always "based on a true story." 




this seems to be the case.

and

If you're interested, Becker's "Denial of Death" is an incredible book. :thumbup: Best book on death I have found. If you don't think you have any death anxiety read this and then decide.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8797414 - 08/19/08 05:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Then you should be able to apply 100% logic to your 100% belief that all you are capable of being consciously aware of is yourself ALIVE in the physical. That is all you can logically ever know or experience.

If you truly have no belief in an after life, what you fear in " The sense of yourself gone form here" doesn't and can not, ever exist.

That would be like my fearing what it is like to breath the air on Planet Achoo, knowing I will never find myself on planet Achoo.

I understand people who believe in an after life having loads of amxiety about what it will be like.

For those that firmly believe, their conscious awareness will end with the the death of the body, I don't get it. All you will ever be able to experience is your being alive here in only this body.

What part of you will be able to experience the suffering of your non human existence when it happens? How will you know it happened?
How will you be able to give a shit about whats going on, with out you here, to be a part of it?

How do you answer those questions to yourself and still remain in anxiety about it?


The Luxury belief is yours, that, we never have to experience our not being here. It's perplexing to me how that can cause you anxiety. There is nothing to be anxious about with a belief like that. There is not even anything to work with to help ease it.

My best guess is, your subconscious memory, remembers things you don't. I would be curious to know what it is fretting about if I were you.

Orr, your hanging around here everyday reading beliefs of others about the after life, reincarnation, spirits, demons, ect, is messing with your head.

How do you feel when you take a break from this sort of subject matter and just spend a few weeks pouring yourself into physical activities you really enjoy?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8797595 - 08/19/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This may seem off-topic, but I just wanted to point out that there seem to be multiple intelligences at work in a living human being.
  My personal experience has been that I feel love more clearly for my lady when my sex drive is shut down.  Tripping on aya. brought that out.  That's not to say that sex plus f.b. DMT isn't interesting...  The body attempts to translate the love that comes from the consciousness into physical expression. The body has a somatic intelligence that can operate independently or in concert with the consciousness.



As far as I can tell this illusionary environment seems to  be designed to maximize a learning experience.  The body's fear of death pushes us to accomplish more in a given lifetime.  In not-identifying with the body our attention is drawn deeper to the mind.  Meditation eventually can begin to stop being a slave to our minds. Observe thoughts and feelings without judgment.  Don't attempt to push anything away.  Let those things be there and they will resolve themselves.  Awareness allows you to see that these things are not you.  It is the opposite of General Hospital soap opera.  I think the Taoists call that untying knots or what not.  As ego issues are ironed out individuals begin to see that "others" are in fact themselves.  It is easy to be kind to people when you don't see them as "other".  Then (I think) a species may develop telepathic communication.

BTW a few johrei sessions in the past have helped me enormously in progressing through this kind of stuff.

johreifoundation.org does long distance work.  There is no fee but if people find it helpful they accept any kind of donation.

I am not a johrei practitioner but I can do a few things.
I could send a little bit of light your way early tomorrow morning, but only with your permission.

I like being useful and I'm told that it works alright.

I'll check back later.

Peace friend.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8797758 - 08/19/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In 1914, Evelyn Underhill wrote:

    "Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims at and believes in such attainment."
- Practical Mysticism , p. 3

Of course, if you do not 'believe' that the perceptual and cognitive veils can part, then you probably have not had an experience so discontinuous with ordinary reality, which hit you with such metaphysical significance that you were left convinced of the immanence of eternity, then you probably have not experienced the mystical.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinenumonkei
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Registered: 04/12/06
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8797818 - 08/19/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe it's more of a singular intelligence pervading the universe... I'll start another thread now, so as to not go off topic.




~Monk

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: numonkei]
    #8798019 - 08/19/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Slot machines signify the evolution of homo sapiens into a new species. Entire galaxies at a time.

I don't take the the written word at face value but the Tao Te Ching has helped me significantly.

Part of passage 52:

Your body dies.
There is no danger.

True, Taoists are obsessive about longevity.
But I have to lend an ear to a group of folks that have a handle on conscious control of their body's endogenous DMT production...  That is just impressive no matter how you look at it.

(Also p. 52)
Seeing the small is called Brightness
(a reference to the pineal gland in operation??)
Maintaining the gentleness is called Strength
(gaining control of endogenous DMT production?)
Use this brightness to return to brightness
(possibly merging with ??? and transcending...)

My best slightly educated guess is that the body is just a bag of flesh that can produce useful raw materials that are useful to a individualized consciousness.

It has been hypothesized that endogenous DMT production brings the consciousness in and out of the body, as well as being a catalyst for evolution.

The Tao Te Ching also talks about going in and coming out as being the same...

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8798072 - 08/19/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, but that's one source. It's a singular viewpoint.

That is not congruent with entirely different expressed viewpoints in similar languages and time periods.

The DMT point is very nice, but catalyst for evolution? You're giving credit to something that happens to make US trip while neglecting that the rest of the stabilizing chemicals in our body to KEEP us from tripping so we live long enough to not be eaten by aggressive animals, or forget to fuck.

Don't credit the molecule, credit the system. The WHOLE system. And remember that there are animals who get similar physical effects from our 'Serotonin as we do from 'Dimethyltryptamine'. Subjectivity is dangerous, but crucial.



~Monk

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OfflineDiddyds
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Registered: 08/05/08
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Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8798787 - 08/19/08 10:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

wouldnt living forever suck(i wouldnt like the thought of living for eternity) and if u werent born u would never even have asked this question so be thankful u were created in a way which can express itself in anyway possible...

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OfflineDiddyds
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Diddyds]
    #8798801 - 08/19/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

BTW i have anxiety as well but I'm glad i did for i would have never experienced ego death, its quite an experience feeling like u are 1 with the world and u are the god u been looking for

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OfflineDiddyds
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Diddyds]
    #8798809 - 08/19/08 10:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

its weird when i saw a sign saying "ignorance is bliss" i was like wtf does that mean...now i know and it truly is bliss lol

Edited by Diddyds (08/19/08 10:31 PM)

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OfflineDiddyds
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Diddyds]
    #8798849 - 08/19/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i think of the mind like clicking a link...u can access information quickly but u dont see whats going on to make it all possible

Edited by Diddyds (08/19/08 10:39 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My death anxiety - morsels of mortals [Re: Icelander]
    #8799511 - 08/20/08 03:20 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, and all of that seems to occur below the level of our awareness, so it appears that we are taking in a "pure" stream of data from our environment.  IMO, there is no way for humans to directly experience reality, because our perception is always "based on a true story." 




although this is a side track
I thought it important to mention
that this does not always happen outside of awareness,
and that awareness is not exactly level arranged.

if awareness (that utterly plastic light of mind thing) is more broadly directed towards mental contents and the stream of consciousness,
then you will notice the stuff I am talking about: evidence of sensation passing, memory, and the
body/mind efforts occurring to synch and respond to sensations arising and passing.

but back to the theme of this thread, being your boy friend's anxiety of death, i want to add that
the idea of fractals can be very inspirational.
for the sense of scale and equality
and what I mean by that is that
if you reach out at the larger meaning of death - at the big implications,
then the mind seems to get shaken or frozen,
but
if you stay with the more humbly sized issues,
each of which has the fractal essence of death within it,
you remain connected to your "issue", but are more easily able to address
your business as it arises.

I am pretty sure that the essence you are struggling with, icelander, is present in each thing,
and in each moment,
and it need not escalate to scales that are unpleasant for your mind to address at all times.

you can better condition your mind by more gently confronting the same fractal at more bite sized morsels,
and to tie back to what veritas is getting at, there are huge benefits from directing awareness towards mental contents and the stream.

(row row row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily ho, life is but a dream)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8800100 - 08/20/08 08:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

If you truly have no belief in an after life, what you fear in " The sense of yourself gone form here" doesn't and can not, ever exist.


Actually, It's the unconscious/conscious fear of loss of personality structure IMO more than any fear of afterlife. Being nothing is terrifying to the self IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety - morsels of mortals [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8800110 - 08/20/08 08:53 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I am pretty sure that the essence you are struggling with, icelander, is present in each thing,
and in each moment,
and it need not escalate to scales that are unpleasant for your mind to address at all times.

you can better condition your mind by more gently confronting the same fractal at more bite sized morsels,
and to tie back to what veritas is getting at, there are huge benefits from directing awareness towards mental contents and the stream.


Oh I agree. I can only do anything in bite sized chunks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineDiddyds
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Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8800127 - 08/20/08 08:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

its prob the fear of the unknown... death is scary but when u realize that we couldnt have lived any other way it seems amazing u had a chance to expirence it...if anything be happy for like i said u and everyone is their own god.... u just dont see it.

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