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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8790701 - 08/18/08 12:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well an incomplete life is definately "another" fear.:lol: And the one that really most concerns us in this life as it's a fear we can actually do something about. Not to pacificy it but to remove it. It's also the best remedy for death anxiety I know of.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8790729 - 08/18/08 12:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

I don't get this death anxiety everyone talks about.  If I'm dead, there's nobody there to 'not be.' I can't cease to exist, because as soon as I die, there is no 'I' to not exist.  There is literally nothing to be afraid of.





This is an intellectual reaction to the idea of being mortal.  Death anxiety is not intellectual.  We may be able to consider this issue on the "surface" of our consciousness, IOW with our new brain, and claim (truthfully, as far as we know) that we are not anxious.  However, it seems quite evident from the behaviors of humankind that our deepest motivations do not arise from our new brain, but from the more ancient R-brain and limbic system.

It is this ancient brain center which initiates death anxiety, leaving our somewhat clueless new brain to attempt to resolve the unresolvable.




Maybe I don't know what others are referring to when they talk about death anxiety.  I was thinking of an intellectual fear, the kind of anxiety that might arise when you are sitting and reflecting on your life and where it's going, what might happen to you etc.  Other than acute fight-or-flight responses in moments of immediate danger, I don't experience anxiety relating to my mortality, unless it is so prevalent that I don't recognize it.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8790732 - 08/18/08 12:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You've made a stand on the side of Non-Being. One can choose Being as well. You identify with temporality and deny Eternity. You can affirm Eternity while accepting temporality (and death).
Eternal Life is not personal immortality, it is what happens when one withdraws inwardly from one's existence into one's Essence, which is Being. Temporality, as form, dissolves into Non-Being. The identification with temporality is automatic and unconscious. One must make a conscious effort to identify with Eternity. Huxley said that our consciousness is "amphibious" and can identify with spirit or matter. Identification with the former is withdrawal from the latter. This is every spiritual path. We awaken to the realization of Being Eternal, as the egoic center of consciousness transfers from the bodily vehicle to the Source and assumes the identity of the Source. This life will be a dream we awaken from. I hope and expect the ecstatic moment of realization - the coming face-to-face with the Clear Light of Unmitigated Reality; the Beatific Vision. If not, annihilation of consciousness won't hurt a bit. We taste that in Delta-wave sleep. We've all seen that movie thousands of times. Guilt? Fear of punishment? That is another story, but a possibility that I am confident that you have dismissed.

“And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.”  - Gen. 5:24
(They call this 'translation,' like a word. Enoch was 'translated' into God. Same for anyone, I expect).

The upside of our egoic-death is the realization that we have always been this Eternal Life, all along. The Buddhists say it, the Nag Hammadi Gnostic gospels say it. They all say it. Hey, with entropy in the space-time continuum you wouldn't want to be a 300 year old man if you could, would you? BTW, most octagenarians don't fear death, so stay healthy and do your own part to live long enough that death-anxiety takes a back seat. How many attempts did you make in the 70s to unify yourself into an ecstatic selfless Light? The Light is, and we are It! It's not always possible to see it, but we will always Be It! I'm already weary of being Mark, I still want to be my Self - our Self - THE SELF - "I AM."

I wish you peace Icelander - an this from someone who has wrestled with temperamental anxiety more than most.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8790751 - 08/18/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, death anxiety is not experienced directly, but rather indirectly.  Becker theorized that it was too awful for us to face head-on, so we translate into a variety of different types of thoughts.  If you're interested, Becker's "Denial of Death" is an incredible book.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8791031 - 08/18/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

OCD sufferers conjure their most difficult thoughts
and repeatedly suffer through remarkably simmilar thought loops and tense feelings as experienced during the last time they conjured the same triggering thoughts.

rather than explore alternate issues, these are the ones they will revisit nearly endlessly moaning at each turn.

in spite of the pain, or maybe because of it, the experience is valued like an art form, the degradation is exquisite, the demoralization unparalelled, only sophisticated people can recognize the superiority of the experience and the elegance of each twist and turn.

I have found that you can't argue or make sense directly with obsessive compulsive disorder, but you can ritualize it, or distract it until next time.
You have to take it seriously, it is as serious as anything ever gets. as serious as death.

it is very much like a tic or like turrets syndrome

could this be about a death tic.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8791743 - 08/18/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
But still, that fear is just a thought, and that thought is just a part of life.




:thumbup: The realization that this thought is impermanent and "it too will pass" is another great help and release.  Anxiety feels like a resistance in my ability to release some of the thoughts or emotions that are processing within my unconscious mind.  Bringing these processes into awareness in an art, when there is lack of creative energy there seems to be much less rewarding outcome.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8792880 - 08/18/08 09:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
I don't have any thoughts or advice I am willing to share as far as the anxiety goes.  But I am sorry to hear you have it.  It takes a big person to admit weakness.

:thumbup:




Is this a weakness? Or is it natural to all whether conscious of it or not. I believe it is and I base that only on my observation of myself and all others I have known or know about.




In the case of death anxiety I think you are correct.  However, many "macho" men and others think that admitting anxiety in general is a weakness, and that would include death anxiety.  It's like admitting you're frightened or nervous or a few other human emotions "strong" people are not supposed to have.  Whether a person is conscious of it/them or not.

As you have known others with similar anxieties, I have known others will no fear of death.  And they weren't the macho men type.  They were spiritual and looked forward to a connection we can only hypothesize.  Also many people look forward to death as a release from suffering.  Numerous suicide attempts and successes evidence this.  Of course it can be argued that they were anxious even though they sought release.  The problem is it cannot be argued successfully.  Unless you are that person, you cannot know.

Also realize that most people believe in some kind of spiritual realm.  Whether or not it is true is beside the point.  Atheists and agnostics are the anomalies.

So I've said my peace.  I wish you well and that you find release from your anxiety in whatever form it takes.  You are free to argue any and all points I have made while trying to offer you peace, but I am dismissing myself from this conversation.

:peace:


--------------------

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8793499 - 08/18/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Death is very very scary.
I want my mommy :hug:

Really and truly, when I think of death (actually all unknowns, but that's the biggest one), all I want to do is cuddle up in my mom's lap.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8794569 - 08/19/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You identify with temporality and deny Eternity.

I don't deny eternity but I can't truly get my head around it. My belief in my personal energy being eternal is just a thought.

We awaken to the realization of Being Eternal, as the egoic center of consciousness transfers from the bodily vehicle to the Source and assumes the identity of the Source. This life will be a dream we awaken from. I hope and expect the ecstatic moment of realization - the coming face-to-face with the Clear Light of Unmitigated Reality; the Beatific Vision. If not, annihilation of consciousness won't hurt a bit. 

The essence of religious belief.  I "hope" is the operative word here. If I do what the bible sez then I "hope" I won't go to hell and I will go to heaven. All good if that works for you. For me it hasn't stood the test of time and experience.

I do try to stay healthy and enjoy what I can. I do know as I age the anxiety is lessened. We do get tired of this as you say. Some of us anyway but that may be due to other factors then we believe. Some very old are still full of life and love and vibrant and willing to continue for as long as it goes.

I also wish you peace and everyone else for that matter. I'm exploring life and belief same as you. After that your guess is as good as mine. (maybe:lol:)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8794972 - 08/19/08 10:11 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What is interesting about this subject when it comes up, is the assumption that one will know they have died and they believe the will experience suffering the loss of them self from this plane.

That suggests to me, people must have some inherent subconscious knowledge, memory, understanding that their conscious awareness will remain after physical death.

Where else would such ideas come from? Think about it.

If one believed 100% that physical death was the end of consciousness, what would there be to fear or be anxious about?

For the person with 100% belief that conscious awareness dies with the body, you have only living to ever know and experience. You have eternal life because it is all you will ever know.

Think about that.

If even .0001% of one feels that just maybe, conscious awareness will remain, I think their fears and anxieties related to physical death, can be put to peace by finding ways to be at peace with life here. 

States of being that can bring inner peace-

Forgiveness of everything, everyone including the self.

Acceptance of everything, everyone, including the self.

Sounds simple enough, yet actual application to the core isn't always that simple. Sometimes, a HUGE and thick wall stands in the way and it is the sense of self that believes it is a separate, and an inferior or superior being from beingness itself.

Whoever said to work on getting comfortable with the idea of your Essenes of being, vs self identification that separates you from all else, is a key.

Consider classic fears of dying-

"Ohhhhhhhhh how will so and so or this place live and manage without me"- superiority complex.

"I never got to say I am sorry to so and so for what I did /said. I am such a horrible person to them" - Lack of self forgiveness and inferiority complex.

"I never got to show the world what I was really made of"- Inferiority complex.

"I will never get a chance to see this or that play out in the future"- Lack of acceptance.

"Its not fair that other people got to live a better life and I will die with nothing greater then what I got from it"- Separation complex. ( A solution to that one is to move into a place that says, the good of others is also my good because, we are one in essence.) That makes it easy to feel happy for the good of others and share in it through the essence of the one being.


For anyone dealing with death anxieties, isolate and examine specific fears. Look to see which virtue needs to be addressed. It can become a rather humorous exercise in self examination.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8794985 - 08/19/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It's not our "personal" energy that is eternal, eternity, even as a concept, is available to our minds at any time. It is THAT which always is. It is time that came into existence.

I used the word hope with reservation, but you latched onto it anyway! :grin: I was thinking about this interaction last night at 2:00 am during our tropical storm (they closed schools yesterday and today). I pulled a book written by a former professor which he titled The Structure of Awareness. It is dense, I've never read it through since he signed it for me in 1977. Anyway, he writes about theology and psychotherapy and he was breaking down our enmeshment in time in terms of dysfunction. He roots guilt in the past and anxiety in the future. True enough, and I'm plagued, as you are, by anxiety - death anxiety. I said that you probably dismissed punishment, but maybe I was wrong. I am attached to my childhood, but despite some regrets and sorrows for things I didn't do and for things I did do, I am NOT plagued by guilt.

Based not on belief or scripture, essentially, but by every high experiences which seem supported by all kinds of high literature from Yogas, mysticism, gnostic gospels, etc., I am intellectually convinced (after the fact of said experiences and writings by others), that we have to commit ourselves to being aware of Eternity in each moment if we are to annihilate our self-conscious awareness of finitude. Hey, I don't even like suspense movies, but I do not have to live in suspense if I'm really present. Has it not occurred to you on trips that death is little more than expiration of a breath that is not followed by an inspiration? That's where we get the euphemism 'expired' for death. It's like the Zen master who is asked what dying is like while on his death bed, and perceiving a sound he replies: "It is like a squirrel running across the roof." Absurd? No. One cannot say anything about Consciousnes qua Consciousness, only about objects IN Consciousness. Pure Consciousness, without content - the PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) - is bliss, ecstasy. I'm confident that you have had your share of glimpses.

I am convinced of the reality of psychedelic states in these matters. The rational mind is a psychic structure which dissolves, so it cannot grasp this. Remaining rational in the face of rational dissolution induces panic if one uses reason as one's frame of reference. Better to surrender to the Clear Light, like the protagonist in Huxley's book Island. Like Edwin Arnold's poem, 'The Light of Asia': "...the dewdrop slips into the shining sea." We spend our entire lives being the personal dewdrop, when we are in truth, the "shining sea." We WANT attachment to persons, pets, people, places, possessions. It is a survival instinct, then a social motive. All lower chakra, personality characteristics that must be transcended by adding detachment to our attachment. It's all gonna be taken from us in time anyway, so we must loosen our grip and not fight so hard to hold on. I for one do not want to leave this world the way I came into it - kicking and screaming!

Something else - the major illusion, which, when pierced allows for the ecstasy of the 'Clear Light' (or whatever you want to call Eternity): In that same book I was reading, professor Oden cited psychologist Carl Rogers who noted "that which seems most personal, turns out to be that which is most general." Even in my own counseling experience, many people struggle to express their most personal failure, or fear, or pain and guess what? I've heard it from lots of people! To each person, their pain seems personal, unique, secret. It's an illusion of the ego the 'ahamkara.' We might as well all become Jnana yogis and think/speak of ourselves in the third person as an exercise to remind us that that REAL perspective is NOT our own egoic-mind. The REAL perspective is from The Witness, sub specie aeternitatis - 'under the aspect of eternity.' Not just our pain, everything is both individual and universal, like snowflakes - all made of the same water molecules arranged differently by dust, atmospheric conditions, 'the stars,' whatever. When each flake melts it becomes a universal drop of water - one with all water, from any time or place or planet. We ARE water! We're like Odo in 'Deep Space Nine,' returning to his non-solid world of liquid cytoplasmic unity.

As I said in an earlier post. This 'assumption' is a carefully chosen one. It is my "controlled folly," a concept that changed me as soon as I read it some 30+ years ago. But, this assumption has made all the difference in my quality of life, complete with synchronicities and veritable answers to prayer that were so specific as to annihilate chance. These events are the proverbial 'manna from heaven' which sustains a continued path. Besides, what else is there? Only what Wilber calls "The Atman Project," surrogate forms of immortality: power, conquest, sexual conquests, production of progeny, empire building, wealth accumulation, pyramid building, Leona Helmsley mausoleum building, heinous acts against humanity to become famous at any cost, etc. All Atman Projects are failures. They are not 'controlled' follies, they are true follies. Even the Great Pyramid will turn to sand in 100,000 years. All this stuff is trapped in linear time. We want and need to be lifted above time, and we need to have glimpses of Eternity now, because glimpses are gnosis, and gnosis gives us 'faith' which can sustain us during non-gnosis moments, of which there are many more in life. I guess I'm not so blessed because the Good Book says: "Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.'" - John 20:29. I have seen the Light and thus believed. Gnosis preceded faith, yet paradoxically, faith was there too. I used to pray out of anxiety when I was a child and I was never taught to 'talk' to God. I was only taught a couple of Hebrew formulaic prayers. I also used to look into the sky and get a sense of 'Being' by looking at transparent immensity of the sky.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to communicate on the level which you have in these posts!

-Mark[ostheGnostic]


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/19/08 10:35 AM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8795047 - 08/19/08 10:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I also used to look into the sky and get a sense of 'Being' by looking at transparent immensity of the sky.




Yes, the "is-ness" of the sky has always inspired awe in me.  Many of my most-vivid childhood memories involve sky-gazing.  I've never assigned any "being" or "divinity" to this experience, though.  What about it indicates to you that there is Being?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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4 more questions [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8795064 - 08/19/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

does it matter if people agree about what they don't understand?

is it possible not to be anxious?

is it beneficial not to be anxious?

is this possible benefit an important part of who/what we can be?

might it be that this (death) anxiety is the fodder upon which religious gangs were historically nourished, swaggering through the beliefosphere
- bullying the uncommitted and slaughtering the others.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8795153 - 08/19/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

That's just it - not 'a' being, but 'Being' itself. The experiences that I remember, including one that was 'colored' by the 'set' (it was a Rosh Hashana trip), was that instead of the ordinary sense of being 'me,' alone in a field, I experienced quite powerfully the 'sense' of being an 'I' who was in the presence of a 'Thou,' of 'Another,' but that Other was experienced as though 'clothed' by the very sky. The sky was not God (any more than a burning bush was God), but the experience of Being is the experience of the "God above God" - the "Ground of Being" - that colorless, indefinable yet intuitively tangible PRESENCE. No attributes, just Presence. Instead of being the usual 'subject,' it was as though I was an 'object' of the sky's Awareness. It was not a visual thing, it was a powerful intuitive sense - very startlingly Real. I felt like I was being silently addressed by the very sky and the sky itself was a symbol for BEING - Eternal Being. Years later I would read how philosopher of religion Huston Smith, when attempting to grasp God as a child would evoke "An infinite sea of grey tapioca." :laugh:
When I was a child, the experiences were were mystical, but obviously not psychedelic-mystical.



Apparently, I am not alone in this experience. I love alchemical woodcuts. I feel like my closest friends are dead strangers who left journals from 400 years ago. :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8795215 - 08/19/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds trippy!  :smile:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8795423 - 08/19/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I do know as I age the anxiety is lessened. We do get tired of this as you say.




As long as Blue Oyster Cult is still playing Don't Fear the Reaper to packed venues across Amerika my anxiety is postponed. 

All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
Seasons don't fear the reaper
Nor do the wind, the sun or the rain..we can be like they are





That reply needs more Cow Bell.

&feature=related


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: 4 more questions [Re: Icelander]
    #8795523 - 08/19/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"The decision to make the present moment into your friend is the end of the ego. The ego can never be in alignment with the present moment, which is to say, aligned with life, since its very nature compels it to ignore, resist, or devalue the Now. Time is what the ego lives on. The stronger the ego, the more time takes over your life. Almost every thought you think is then concerned with past or future, and your sense of self depends on the past for your identity and on the future for its fulfillment. Fear, anxiety, expectation, regret, guilt, anger are the dysfunctions of the time-bound consciousness."  A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, pp. 201-202

Regret, guilt and anger can ONLY be attributed to the past. We cannot experience these affects about a not-yet-arrived future.
Fear, anxiety and expectation are directed towards the future by an egoic-mind grasping at a receding temporal horizon.

No, anxiety is NOT a positive thing. I can plan for the future, but to fear possibilities is a dysfunctional condition. As I said in Icelander's post, I am not troubled by guilt as many are. Sorrow and regret for things I have done or failed to do is not guilt. But I am plagued by anxiety, the mother of which is death anxiety. Divorce, death of others, disease, loss of employment, etc. are all losses and attenuated forms of final death. I will deal with them when they arrive. They are not under the control of my ego. It still is a matter of "Remember: BE HERE NOW."

I have experienced states of consciousness which were devoid of anxiety including death anxiety. At some very high moments I wished for death, that I might die in a state of ecstatic fearlessness. Recently, while in my hot tub, with only a half glass of wine, I gazed at the tree limbs above me against the sky and thought, "I could die in this place," however, I was not wishing to die at that moment, and so the acceptance was conditional, put off to the future and thus more denial of death. So, it was not the optimal state of 'be not afraid' - the Buddha in the gesture of fearlessness.

As to your last paragraph, I really have no idea what you're thinking. All human predators use their victim's fear against them as a psychological weapon.




--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8795534 - 08/19/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Sounds trippy!  :smile:




I agree, if "trippy" translates into 'mystical.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8795655 - 08/19/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mystical
  1.  Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
  2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
  3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
  4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
  5. Unintelligible; cryptic.





Could be.  :shrug:  I would say, though, that the first 2 definitions would be difficult (if not impossible) to apply with any degree of certainty.  "Best guess" would be more honest than any claim of absolute mysticism.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Veritas]
    #8796998 - 08/19/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

How about Phenomenology, Transcendental Phenomenology to be specific (not Existential Phenomenology) instead of "best guess?" As a discipline, it stands above both philosophy and psychology in that it takes the stance that an observer is aware of and can articulate what appears in consciousness. Then one elaborates and determines whether there is sufficient description for any given phenomenon to be defined. I am being simplistic but Phenomenology is scientific in its rigor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_(philosophy)

"Bracketing" phenomena, the Phenomenological Epoche, requires that we have complete trust in our reflective self-awareness. We establish what appears minus subjective interpretations initially, and only interpret after the fact. Check out the Wiki link. My dissertation in '83 was of the 'historical narrative' type (rather than a statistical study), and I when I tried to include an introductory chapter explaining the phenomenological method, my advisor made me cut out the explanation and 'just do it.'


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