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InvisibleIcelander
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My death anxiety
    #8787958 - 08/17/08 09:20 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I certainly have it. In my life I have tried to find and face what is true. I certainly would like to believe that I'm somehow special and eternal and that I can go on until I find bliss and fulfillment in eternity.

However I have not found real evidence for it. As I have looked deeply at my motivations for my thoughts and feelings and beliefs they all lead back to the fact that I am afraid of not being.

All the beliefs I have adopted are in service of reasuring my insecurites that I am not a temporary event with no more importance than a thought that quickly passes and is no more.

Even my belief that I have no permenence but the energy of my being goes on is in service of reassuring myself that I am part of something enduring that is personal (I am part of everything) (see, I'm always saying "I"). I just can't get away from death anxiety.

I believe that I am going to go on this way until I find out one way or another. I just can't really find a way to convince myself that I'm sure of anything at all. That creates anxiey whether I like it or not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/17/08 09:52 PM)


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OfflineEpigallo
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Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8788350 - 08/17/08 10:44 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Even my belief that I have no permenence but the energy of my being goes on is in service of reassuring myself that I am part of something enduring that is personal (I am part of everything)




This doesn't seem like a belief to me, but a scientific fact. If, by this you meant that your actions become part of everything they touch.


Of course that's not the same as living forever. But think, if we could each live hundreds thousands of years into the future we would probably each be uncrecognizable to ourselves as we are today, due to our many adaptations. So, what do we want anyway?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Epigallo]
    #8788360 - 08/17/08 10:46 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

We want to be happy, in ways that we can understand now.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisiblederanger
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8788438 - 08/17/08 11:01 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I just can't really find a way to convince myself that I'm sure of anything at all.

Word, the only thing I can be completely sure of is the fact that I am existing right now.  Everything else is fantasy.

But the thought of not existing sure does suck.


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Offlinesatyr
אתה בעצמך יודע


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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8788460 - 08/17/08 11:05 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I certainly have it. In my life I have tried to find and face what is true. I certainly would like to believe that I'm somehow special and eternal and that I can go on until I find bliss and fulfillment in eternity.

However I have not found real evidence for it. As I have looked deeply at my motivations for my thoughts and feelings and beliefs they all lead back to the fact that I am afraid of not being.



Have you found any evidence that you are not eternal?
We adopt belief systems all of the time. Sometimes out of fear of not being, sometimes to gain particular advantage in certain aspects of our lives.
The problem with belief systems is that they are just that: beliefs. Nothing can ever truly back them up. 
We believe that we are eternal
We believe that we are simply organic robots that cease to exist at death.
The only way we can overcome these issues is by dropping our expectations and living in the now.
Learning to operate and function off of our own awareness of the world around us, and not off of learned beliefs, is key to setting ourselves free.

My recommendation for you would be a session with ayahuasca.
No beliefs, no expectations, just to drink, listen, and be aware.
T


--------------------
Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade :pm:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My death anxiety *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #8788482 - 08/17/08 11:07 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Post deleted by MarkostheGnostic

Reason for deletion: Do I need a 'reason?'



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/17/08 11:38 PM)


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Offlinefazdazzle
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8788626 - 08/17/08 11:44 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I think satyr's first question is a good one to at least ease your mind...but I understand your frustration. I definitely believe many things just to sustain my belief that I will always remain. My biggest piece of evidence or perpetuation is that there have been thousands of people all over the world in different cultures and all points in time that claimed existence of life outside of ours. I have astral projected and had "feelings of divinity" but it still isn't enough to convince me that I won't just case to exist once I die.

Funnily enough, I have been thinking about this a lot lately, also. I think it is one of the biggest quests in human life, though. Shamans are considered one of the most valiant of all spiritual people and they have a firm grasp of death and dying...in fact, shamans must be comfortable with it in order to move between worlds. The point I'm trying to make is ease of mind with death is hard to come by and many people avoid it - intensely. Even though it's a strange thing from what you're used to, it seems very mature of you to be considering it and taking on the challenge, so to speak.

About two weeks ago as I had been considering this, I saw a youtube clip of Carl Sagan explaining "the pale blue dot." As he wove together all the experiences of human kind, which from the distance of Saturn were completely amiss, I was reminded that worrying about death is kind of a moot point. The thing that stuck out to me is that he explained how every person who had lived on this planet in all human history, has died. Famous and poor people alike all went through their lives with the ups and downs with nothing at all to take stock in what they've accomplished....I think it kind of made me mentally band together with everyone else, like a "We're all in this together," so of idea. But in any case, the idea that outside of our planet - and not even very far for that matter, our minute worries and squabbles don't mean jack.

For me the biggest thing that has helped me start getting away from this fear is an emotional touch instead of an intellectual conclusion. I was just going to describe the Carl Sagan video, but I think you might like it, so lemme find it..

&ei=UO-oSMb4F4yc4gLtxPi_DQ&q=carl+sagan+pale+blue+dot&vt=lf&hl=en

And yaknow, Carl Sagan just has a really soothing voice. Man I wish he was my grandpa! What a story teller...


Edited by fazdazzle (08/17/08 11:47 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8788719 - 08/18/08 12:09 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
....
I believe that I am going to go on this way until I find out one way or another. I just can't really find a way to convince myself that I'm sure of anything at all. That creates anxiey whether I like it or not.





ever hear of escalation?
at some point you may get a handle on this feedback.
you can choke that back a bit and find a good balance.
let the issues see themselves

naturally there is always some hunger to deal with.


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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8788754 - 08/18/08 12:20 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I get an awful feeling in my chest when I think to myself that one day I will die and cease to exist for eternity.

At the same time, imagining anything happening without end devastates me.  But so does the thought of there being an end to eternity, because then there would be nothing forever.

I take some comfort in the fact that my body will decompose and provide nutrients to grass and maggots.

Sometimes when I'm really able to grasp it I feel alone and hopeless and I cry.  It was worse when I was a kid, before I was able to build up defenses in my mind.

Neither Heaven nor Hell could be an answer, only another problem.  There is no personal comfort in the reality of eternity imo.

Sleep forever without so much as a dream.

(We're on a road to nowhere | Here is where time is on our side)


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


Edited by elbisivni (08/18/08 12:52 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8788804 - 08/18/08 12:40 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

>>>>I just can't really find a way to convince myself that I'm sure of anything at all. That creates anxiety whether I like it or not.

Despite all the tautological reasoning, I see growth... or perhaps in part because of it. I think the life that is lived, is the story that is told. That spiritual ladder, where does it lead?

:shrug:

Thinking of my ego (the "I") as dead, already, seems to clear things up a little in the ego department.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Walking around 6 million years ago. Looking kind of human 1 million years ago. Writing things down 6 thousand years ago.”


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8789021 - 08/18/08 01:47 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I don't know man....
Perhaps it is like an unconditional acceptance or "surrendering" to the idea of what lies behind that -
which we do not understand about death that helps one get past the anxiety that you speak of....
Our talks on the subject have made me more aware of death, but my feelings have not changed about it....

I also bought the video and watched "The Flight from Death" that Veritas recommended....
It was an interesting video, with some strange experiments, but I honestly didn't agree with some of it....
I really dug the hippie dood (psychology professor?), he had a magnificent poetically colorful way of speaking....    :thumbup:
I will watch it again before too long....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8789214 - 08/18/08 02:51 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

If nothing else, it's a quite strong motivator for life :wink:
Imho, living by its fullest leaves no room for death-anxiety. Even so, thinking that, does the trick too...
If one has nothing more to get out of life, what should he worry about death ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8789322 - 08/18/08 03:40 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I don't have any thoughts or advice I am willing to share as far as the anxiety goes.  But I am sorry to hear you have it.  It takes a big person to admit weakness.

:thumbup:


--------------------


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8789402 - 08/18/08 04:17 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

One day I had an extraordinarily profound experience, one more "real" than I had ever had. I experienced the fact that some day I was going to die, And just before I died, two things would happen: One, I would regret my entire life; Two, I would want to live my life over again, and then I would die. -- Hubert Selby Jr.




For a blissful month and a half after first starting to use psychedelics, I was convinced that there had to be something deeper after death.  Then I snapped out of it and went through a long, dark nihilism of the soul until I mostly came to terms with the fact that I am going to die someday.

Dunno what to tell you, really.  I still have this anxiety myself.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8789436 - 08/18/08 04:28 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

I'm anxious too.

It can be difficult sometimes, to see, but thoughts are just thoughts, feelings are just feelings, and emotions are just emotions. Ever-changing.

Who was born? Who will die?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: Icelander]
    #8789528 - 08/18/08 05:32 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Going on a babble:

Isn't it a matter of simply knowing that it's okay to die?  That every other living entity that has gone before us, has also died?  That I wasn't afraid to be born, so why should I be afraid to die?  It's okay to not exist. 

For me: I cannot change death; it's coming no matter what (and that intrigues me) but due to the inevitability of it, I can either accept that I will not exist one day and let the fear go and be at peace with existence, or I can get wound up about non-existence and let that interfere with my life...

The first option is what I aim for. 

Non-existence in your mind is only an illusion.  It's not what's now.  It doesn't exist for you yet.  It's a little funny... fantasizing about your non-existence, which doesn't even exist. 

/babble off. 



Yeah, I get anticipatory butterflies just like anyone about death; but I've also come to see it as a necessity for life; as natural as birth.  I am not worried about preserving my 'self.'  My personality/identity doesn't matter that much to me, or at least, that's how it feels this moment (things change all the time).  I like the thought of Nature devouring me.  I like the thought of being part of that Cycle.  Makes it easier to be alive, anyway, knowing that I have "my brief moment in the sun to flourish" and then imperceivable rest. 

I wonder how much of death-anxiety is culturally induced.

Because it really is okay to die!  (it actually doesn't matter)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: MOTH]
    #8789679 - 08/18/08 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

it's pretty straight forward to me
this issue is fraught with anxiety.
you have addressed it directly for years - it is adequately addressed.
the big work
the enlightened work
the mastery yet to be mastered
is to walk from the battlefield, drop the armour, drop the sword, drop the valor, drop the chivalry, drop the fame and =glory and leave the field.
end the carnage
let peace reign.

this is not surrender to the issue (the issue is dry and over worked)
it is the issue itself being surrendered (transcended). life goes on.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: satyr]
    #8790440 - 08/18/08 01:07 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Gee thanks for the advice but I have had more high dose drug experiences then I can ever remember. I started in 1970 and continue to this day.

Have you found any evidence that you are not eternal?


Yes I find evidence that I am not eternal everywhere I look. Death comes to every living thing. This really is evidence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8790454 - 08/18/08 01:09 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Being and Non-Being as the primal opposites which are reconciled in a transcendent Godhead, above a triune God.

So... a belief system that relieves death anxiety. I already know about these.

is aroused by the loss of the spiritual center,


On thing I have finally come to grips with is the fact that if someone who is well known says something that doesn't make it true at all.
This assumes one ever had a spiritual center, this could be another belief to relieve death anxiety as there is no conclusive evidence I have found that we are in reality spiritual.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My death anxiety [Re: fazdazzle]
    #8790492 - 08/18/08 01:15 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Good post. While worry about death may be moot, and I believe it is, that will not stop any onconscious process IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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