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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
Registered: 11/13/07
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Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts
#8781583 - 08/16/08 09:52 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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What is it about Salvia Divinorum that is so unique? This plant which provides a sometimes illuminating, sometimes frightening, often times elusive, psychedelic experience which is unlike any other plant out there. Most people seem to have terrifying, difficult, trips that sometimes involve hallucinations that make no sense whatsoever. (i.e. becoming a chair leg)
Then on rarer occasions, others will have exquisite experiences in which they encounter the goddess/priestess/maiden figure, and the dream is recalled as being very pleasant and enlightening.
After watching the salvia conference with kathleen harrison, this really makes me think. Could there really be some discarnate consciousness within this plant that chooses to reveal itself at will, and when it doesnt, one must wait in some bizarre, alien threshold until the trip is over?
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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maysrome
It is a disgusting sandwich.
Registered: 07/28/08
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Loc: Alabama, USA
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8781631 - 08/16/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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i don't understand salvia either.
seems like even when you're chill and cool, have done it a few times, it's still random and you don't know what sort of trip you'll have, good or bad.
Quote:
Could there really be some discarnate consciousness within this plant that chooses to reveal itself at will, and when it doesn't, one must wait in some bizarre, alien threshold until the trip is over?
possibly, similar to that of dmt and other strong hallucinogens?
-------------------- Es muss sein?!
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N2loma
Foaming Pipe Snake
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: maysrome]
#8781676 - 08/16/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree that Salvia is a mysterious substance. I remember once being over a threshold of sorts and finally feeling the "force" pushing my chest forward and down, but resisting and saying loudly "ha ha, you can't have me" in defiance, only to have the effects immediately disappear. I felt very stupid thereafter since I had an opportunity to go all the way Thankfully the Lady doesn't seem to have held any grudges and I obtain mainly pleasant effects.
-------------------- "So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/ If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed Good Guitars Don't Cry
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: N2loma]
#8781701 - 08/16/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey senyor you like my seestar
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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NobodyImportant
Stranger
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: redgreenvines]
#8781847 - 08/16/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Salvia is an odd substance for sure but I have had some extremely spiritual and just plain amazing experiences off of it
a few times I learned how to control the feeling of pain in my body and I was able to do it for the next few hours after the trip too
I could make it feel like I was being stabbed while just sitting down and then I could do something like hit my hand with something and have it hurt like hell then make the feeling turn into a good feeling
im finally learning how to control my salvia trips
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Homegrower3000
Irie Guy
Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 83
Loc: South Africa
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I've only smoked salvia a couple times, but both times I didn't really trip it just felt like a really short really really intense weed high. I took about 6 hits and held them in for a fucking long time, until I needed to breathe and I still didn't trip. Others with me who smoked the same salvia tripped fucking hard. What am I doing wrong? Any ideas?
-------------------- "I'm not guilty. You're the one that's guilty. The lawmakers, the politicians, the Columbian drug lords, all you who lobby against making drugs legal. Just like you did with alcohol during the prohibition. You're the one who's guilty. I mean, c'mon, let's kick the ballistics here: Ain't no Uzi's made in Harlem. Not one of us in here owns a poppy field. This thing is bigger than Nino Brown. This is big business. This is the American way." - Nino Brown(Wesley Snipes), New Jack City (1991)
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golden1
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 1,707
Loc: north korea
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: Homegrower3000]
#8830611 - 08/26/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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After breaking through probably around 30 times, I have to say there are definitely different types of trips. becoming an inanimate object/s complete insanity(none of your senses make ANY sense, I can't even picture some of the scenes I've seen) dream-like visions(a couple different styles and moods) I'm probably forgetting some
My favorite visual was when I descended into the salvia world and everything in my room turned into masses of snakes coiling around each other. Then the snakes making up everything including myself deformed and started swirling around in amazing patterns. It was unlike every other trip, crazy stuff
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8830989 - 08/26/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, the reason you feel the Salvia experience is unique is because Salvia is the only psychoactive substance currently known that works through the kappa-opioid receptor--of course it's going to feel fundamentally different from your typical 5-HT2A serotonin receptor activity that comes as a result of shrooms or LSD.
And any "discarnate consciousness" that reveals itself to you through the use of Salvia is present only in your mind, and not in the plant itself.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Platinum
Psychonautical Engineer
Registered: 06/04/08
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Loc: New York
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: deCypher]
#8831005 - 08/26/08 02:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: And any "discarnate consciousness" that reveals itself to you through the use of Salvia is present only in your mind, and not in the plant itself.
I personally think there is some sort of connection between all salvia users. There's a reason many users report the presence of a woman... and many describe her being the same way. She can be a bitch, or she can show you amazing things. She's very shy, and it takes awhile for her to show herself. There are other characteristics that many people have in common. I've experienced this presence as well, and I really feel like there is SOMETHING in this plant... some presence... some consciousness.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: Platinum]
#8831038 - 08/26/08 02:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why do you assume the consciousness has to be present within the plant itself, though? I agree that there are plenty of consistencies across people with the Salvia experience, but all this means is that the Salvia Divinorum compound is capable of manifesting a similar personification of a subconscious entity from user to user. Attributing consciousness or some kind of metaphysical power to a primitive bio-organism seems a slippery slope to a non-rational world view, IMO.
And Datura also appears to exhibit this same property of a female presence--one who is sadistically evil and who will toy with your very concept of reality on a whim, however.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
Registered: 11/13/07
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: deCypher]
#8831098 - 08/26/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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On the contrary, a non-rational world view is just what we need. Rationality hinders possibility.
And who is to say that these experiences only exist in our brains?
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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PsilocybinMind
Herb Nerd
Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 664
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8831120 - 08/26/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Salvia D. is a very unique plant, and I think it is a good tool for meditation. It defiantly has it's place.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: deCypher]
#8831358 - 08/26/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: Well, the reason you feel the Salvia experience is unique is because Salvia is the only psychoactive substance currently known that works through the kappa-opioid receptor--of course it's going to feel fundamentally different from your typical 5-HT2A serotonin receptor activity that comes as a result of shrooms or LSD.
And any "discarnate consciousness" that reveals itself to you through the use of Salvia is present only in your mind, and not in the plant itself.
there have been no in-vivo studies of 5-ht2a levels after kappa opioid receptor activation. nobody knows what kappa opioid receptors do.
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: redgreenvines]
#8831378 - 08/26/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, okay, I'm not denying that serotonin receptors will end up getting indirectly affected by Salvia (the entire brain is a giant, interlocking mechanism and no particular drug can hope to isolate only a single sub-system of the whole), but my point was that the unique dissociative effects and the trip itself seems to be a result of kappa-opioid receptor activation, even if we have no idea how this takes place or what other functions these receptors have in the brain.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: redgreenvines]
#8831669 - 08/26/08 05:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
The Cypher said: Well, the reason you feel the Salvia experience is unique is because Salvia is the only psychoactive substance currently known that works through the kappa-opioid receptor--of course it's going to feel fundamentally different from your typical 5-HT2A serotonin receptor activity that comes as a result of shrooms or LSD.
And any "discarnate consciousness" that reveals itself to you through the use of Salvia is present only in your mind, and not in the plant itself.
there have been no in-vivo studies of 5-ht2a levels after kappa opioid receptor activation. nobody knows what kappa opioid receptors do.
To me, this is one of the single most intriguing things about salvinorin. Why does it affect an area of our brain that we know nothing about? What purpose do these receptors serve?
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8831712 - 08/26/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
satyr said: On the contrary, a non-rational world view is just what we need. Rationality hinders possibility.
And who is to say that these experiences only exist in our brains?
These are the sorts of statements that bother me. Sure, rationality hinders possibility, but that's only referring to the power of imagination and creativity.
If you want to truly understand the world around us and how things work, it's necessary to do so from a logical, methodical foundation. Science enables us to formulate a hypothesis and then test it, which is something a non-rational world view cannot offer.
And who is to say that these experiences exist "outside" of our brains? Unless you have evidence for this assertion, you can only go by what we know, and that restricts us to linking consciousness to some sort of active, complex neural tissue.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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tis matt
Stranger
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 100
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8831763 - 08/26/08 05:47 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
satyr said: trips that sometimes involve hallucinations that make no sense whatsoever. (i.e. becoming a chair leg)
use this effect of becoming what you see to your advantage. IME many times my senses feel mixed together when on salvia. when listening to music i am sometimes able to hear/see/feel the music, which is quite an experience
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: deCypher]
#8831887 - 08/26/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
satyr said: On the contrary, a non-rational world view is just what we need. Rationality hinders possibility.
And who is to say that these experiences only exist in our brains?
And who is to say that these experiences exist "outside" of our brains? Unless you have evidence for this assertion, you can only go by what we know, and that restricts us to linking consciousness to some sort of active, complex neural tissue.
The thing is, science knows NOTHING about consciousness and awareness. That being said, I must go by what I know, which is experience. Things that I have experienced while under the influence of psychedelics have proven to me that there is more going on than simple illusions of the mind. I have experienced things that defy science. Of course, I have no evidence to present of these things, yet the experiences themselves are far greater evidence to me than some half-ass, hypothetical explanation by some discovery channel scientist. There is an infinite number of things in the universe that cannot be measured by science at the present time. Not everything can be proven by evidence, yet this does not mean they are not valid.
I dont think the problem is with science, I believe the problem is with those who control the spread of information. The fact is, that it is extremely convenient for those in power for the major population to believe that we are nothing but bodies and that everything in the universe is entirely random and meaningless.
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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PsilocybinMind
Herb Nerd
Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 664
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8832036 - 08/26/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I suggest anyone who is interested in this plant to read - Peopled Darkness: Perceptual Transformation through Salvia divinorum by J.D. Arthur. Good read!
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513orangejuice
...
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 397
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8832087 - 08/26/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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i have a few questions about salvia for everybody: - when you smoke salvia, does it seem to take you away from all your sences, or does it seem to intensify them?
- does it seem to combine certin sences ( i.e. , seeing sound, energy, etc...), or to seperate them all apart????
Reason being, if it mushes everything together, like the dream mind/subconsious with the waking mind/consiousness, then that could lead to endless self discovery/therapy, or mabie even divination, due to the fact that so many people have predicted the future in thier dreams. Mabie its called "divinorium" for a reason,...(ever had a dream of your teeth falling out? well, its a subconsious metaphor for change, since its the biggest change to happen during a very crucial part of your brains developing. So ussally people that have this dream already know there in for a big change, and there subconsious gets in "teeth falling out" mode.) Also, if it seperates you from your sences, you might have less blockage keeping you from accessing different parts of your brain then you might be able to,..but alcohol dulls alot of your sences too,...
i dont know, it just seems like it mushes everythong together and the world gets really small sometimes,... im really high tho, so none of that may make sence
-------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- America is a rapist.
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AnotherDimension
Wanderer in the Land of the Lost
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: deCypher]
#8832108 - 08/26/08 06:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: If you want to truly understand the world around us and how things work, it's necessary to do so from a logical, methodical foundation. Science enables us to formulate a hypothesis and then test it, which is something a non-rational world view cannot offer.
Unfortunately, the large majority of humans don't seem to be capable of thinking in a scientific manner. This can often be seen when they try to refute science in a manner that just shows they don't really have any deep understanding of how science works.
Now, one must understand that science is merely a continuance of philosophy. Philosophy identifies phenomenon. Science seeks to measure that phenomenon and thus derive theories in an effort to better understand the phenomenon. Math is the language by which science operates (hard science, at least).
One can certainly refute science and even the scientific approach. Nietzsche does this in his debut work "The Birth of Tragedy" whereby he praises the irrational and philosophically presents the limitations of rational thinking at the boundary points of human knowledge, and describes the current scientific endeavors as a giant Socratic conspiracy, more or less. (My words, not his, thus my interpretation.)
That being said, it is clear in Nietzsche's writing that he has quite a deep understanding of the scientific method and approach. To argue something intelligently, first you must understand all of the available perspectives.
Edit: This is a continuation of what you have said, Cypher, not an argument against you.
-------------------- Another Dimension --------------------------- "Come, and trip it as ye go, On the light fantastick toe."
Edited by AnotherDimension (08/26/08 07:04 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
#8832501 - 08/26/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
satyr said:The thing is, science knows NOTHING about consciousness and awareness. That being said, I must go by what I know, which is experience. Things that I have experienced while under the influence of psychedelics have proven to me that there is more going on than simple illusions of the mind. I have experienced things that defy science. Of course, I have no evidence to present of these things, yet the experiences themselves are far greater evidence to me than some half-ass, hypothetical explanation by some discovery channel scientist. There is an infinite number of things in the universe that cannot be measured by science at the present time. Not everything can be proven by evidence, yet this does not mean they are not valid.
I dont think the problem is with science, I believe the problem is with those who control the spread of information. The fact is, that it is extremely convenient for those in power for the major population to believe that we are nothing but bodies and that everything in the universe is entirely random and meaningless.
The thing is, science does know a LOT about consciousness. We know that consciousness can be modified pharmacologically with the ingestion of psychoactive drugs, that your sense of self and fundamental mental processes that we take for granted can be altered or destroyed by lesioning parts of the brain, and that by magnetically inducing currents on certain portions of the temporal lobe we can create the experience of a "mystical" presence in a subject.
It's one thing to say that science doesn't understand why we are conscious (which is currently true), but it's another to throw science out completely in favor of subjective experiences.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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maysrome
It is a disgusting sandwich.
Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 1,526
Loc: Alabama, USA
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: 513orangejuice]
#8832575 - 08/26/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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(in response to 513orangejuice)
*senses.
increasing them? perhaps, but the few times i've done it have just been plain weird. i never liked it but possibly twice out of the five times i did it.
i felt an odd head change, nothing dramatic, and i seen a figurine cat blink at me.
i don't think my salvia i had was that great though, judging by the many things i've herd on here and other sources. i may give it a try again someday, but for now, i'm good with weed.
-------------------- Es muss sein?!
Edited by maysrome (08/26/08 08:34 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: maysrome]
#8834382 - 08/27/08 05:29 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I find that all the psychedelics work the same way, however, some hit faster, some run longer, and some have a wider spectrum of effect (which senses are enhanced), and some fake pleasure in greater or lesser degrees.
salvia has the widest spectrum of the effect (all the body senses and memory), and the least amount of fake pleasure.
perhaps the fake pleasure is in the dopamine pathways, when you come down from fake pleasure you need another hit, or think you do to replenish a depleted resource. none of that with salvia.
anyway when people say salvia (or psychedelics) increase your senses, they are partly right. allow that memory recall (of sensory experiences) is equivalent to senses in the stream of consciousness:
the natural stream of consciousness or normal state of mind involves one sensory interactive mind moment that follows another. these mind moments follow close on the heels of eachother, and the small amount of overlap helps memory to form. memories formed of sensory interactive mind moments become the interactive potential for future experiences.
when you introduce psychedelic, sensory interactive mind moments overlap more, they fade more slowly.
On very high dosage, mind moment fadeout can be extended to overlap or stack up to over 50 times the usual, at which point nothing makes any sense, anything more extensive creates amnesia, by preventing new memory formation.
moderate dosages provide the whole range of psychedelic effects by stacking or overlapping mind moments: sensory enrichments, time distortions and reversals, stretched and combined images (&body senses etc.), cartoons, impossible thoughts that seem reasonable (due to jumps of logic sequences or mere improbable associativity) and many more.
flooding of synapses with serrotonin is one obvious way to extend the duration of a sensory or memory signal in the brain, but there seems to be quite a few options to this, including thalamic feedback to cortex and other emotional or chemically induced changes in mental state.
I try to be very clear about the term "mental state" to indicate the reverberance or layeredness of the mind, and to see that it is not just chemistry that provides the stacking of moments.
I like to see how the stream of consciousness is affected by the variously stacked mental states, and this interest is usually rewarded a great deal with salvia.
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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shroomiin
unprofound
Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 2,470
Loc: Zone 6
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: Homegrower3000]
#8834819 - 08/27/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Homegrower3000 said: I've only smoked salvia a couple times, but both times I didn't really trip it just felt like a really short really really intense weed high. I took about 6 hits and held them in for a fucking long time, until I needed to breathe and I still didn't trip. Others with me who smoked the same salvia tripped fucking hard. What am I doing wrong? Any ideas?
get the extract. smoking the dry leaves themselfs is stupid, i barely tripped at all when i smoked them. I got some 25x extract and tripped balls.
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Odum
stress of babylon
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: shroomiin]
#8835841 - 08/27/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Dunno I have used all strengths of Salvia and never had a vision of a Lady...In my opinion consciousness is only perception. I tell you what tho I Hate Salvia. Mostly its just disorienting for me. ie dont recognize people, dont know where i am. This drug suuuckkks. Not everything that changes perception is good.
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golden1
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 1,707
Loc: north korea
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Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: Odum]
#8836185 - 08/27/08 02:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Odum said: Dunno I have used all strengths of Salvia and never had a vision of a Lady...In my opinion consciousness is only perception. I tell you what tho I Hate Salvia. Mostly its just disorienting for me. ie dont recognize people, dont know where i am. This drug suuuckkks. Not everything that changes perception is good.
Not everything that you don't like is bad :P
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