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OfflineAnotherDimension
Wanderer in the Land of the Lost


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 533
Loc: USA
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: deCypher]
    #8832108 - 08/26/08 06:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
If you want to truly understand the world around us and how things work, it's necessary to do so from a logical, methodical foundation.  Science enables us to formulate a hypothesis and then test it, which is something a non-rational world view cannot offer.





Unfortunately, the large majority of humans don't seem to be capable of thinking in a scientific manner.  This can often be seen when they try to refute science in a manner that just shows they don't really have any deep understanding of how science works.

Now, one must understand that science is merely a continuance of philosophy.  Philosophy identifies phenomenon.  Science seeks to measure that phenomenon and thus derive theories in an effort to better understand the phenomenon.  Math is the language by which science operates (hard science, at least).

One can certainly refute science and even the scientific approach.  Nietzsche does this in his debut work "The Birth of Tragedy" whereby he praises the irrational and philosophically presents the limitations of rational thinking at the boundary points of human knowledge, and describes the current scientific endeavors as a giant Socratic conspiracy, more or less.  (My words, not his, thus my interpretation.)

That being said, it is clear in Nietzsche's writing that he has quite a deep understanding of the scientific method and approach.  To argue something intelligently, first you must understand all of the available perspectives.

Edit: This is a continuation of what you have said, Cypher, not an argument against you.


--------------------
Another Dimension
---------------------------
"Come, and trip it as ye go,
On the light fantastick toe."

Edited by AnotherDimension (08/26/08 07:04 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: satyr]
    #8832501 - 08/26/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

satyr said:The thing is, science knows NOTHING about consciousness and awareness. That being said, I must go by what I know, which is experience. Things that I have experienced while under the influence of psychedelics have proven to me that there is more going on than simple illusions of the mind. I have experienced things that defy science. Of course, I have no evidence to present of these things, yet the experiences themselves are far greater evidence to me than some half-ass, hypothetical explanation by some discovery channel scientist.
There is an infinite number of things in the universe that cannot be measured by science at the present time. Not everything can be proven by evidence, yet this does not mean they are not valid.

I dont think the problem is with science, I believe the problem is with those who control the spread of information.
The fact is, that it is extremely convenient for those in power for the major population to believe that we are nothing but bodies and that everything in the universe is entirely random and meaningless.




The thing is, science does know a LOT about consciousness.  We know that consciousness can be modified pharmacologically with the ingestion of psychoactive drugs, that your sense of self and fundamental mental processes that we take for granted can be altered or destroyed by lesioning parts of the brain, and that by magnetically inducing currents on certain portions of the temporal lobe we can create the experience of a "mystical" presence in a subject.

It's one thing to say that science doesn't understand why we are conscious (which is currently true), but it's another to throw science out completely in favor of subjective experiences.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemaysrome
It is a disgusting sandwich.
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 1,526
Loc: Alabama, USA
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: 513orangejuice]
    #8832575 - 08/26/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

(in response to 513orangejuice)

*senses.

increasing them? perhaps, but the few times i've done it have
just been plain weird. i never liked it but possibly twice out
of the five times i did it.

i felt an odd head change, nothing dramatic, and i seen a figurine
cat blink at me.

i don't think my salvia i had was that great though, judging by
the many things i've herd on here and other sources. i may give
it a try again someday, but for now, i'm good with weed.


--------------------
Es muss sein?!

Edited by maysrome (08/26/08 08:34 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,007
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: maysrome]
    #8834382 - 08/27/08 05:29 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I find that all the psychedelics work the same way, however, some hit faster, some run longer, and some have a wider spectrum of effect (which senses are enhanced), and some fake pleasure in greater or lesser degrees.

salvia has the widest spectrum of the effect (all the body senses and memory), and the least amount of fake pleasure.

perhaps the fake pleasure is in the dopamine pathways, when you come down from fake pleasure you need another hit, or think you do to replenish a depleted resource. none of that with salvia.

anyway when people say salvia (or psychedelics) increase your senses, they are partly right. allow that memory recall (of sensory experiences) is equivalent to senses in the stream of consciousness:

the natural stream of consciousness or normal state of mind involves one sensory interactive mind moment that follows another.
these mind moments follow close on the heels of eachother, and the small amount of overlap helps memory to form.
memories formed of sensory interactive mind moments become the interactive potential for future experiences.

when you introduce psychedelic, sensory interactive mind moments overlap more, they fade more slowly.

On very high dosage, mind moment fadeout can be extended to overlap or stack up to over 50 times the usual, at which point nothing makes any sense, anything more extensive creates amnesia, by preventing new memory formation.

moderate dosages provide the whole range of psychedelic effects by stacking or overlapping mind moments: sensory enrichments, time distortions and reversals, stretched and combined images (&body senses etc.), cartoons, impossible thoughts that seem reasonable (due to jumps of logic sequences or mere improbable associativity) and many more.

flooding of synapses with serrotonin is one obvious way to extend the duration of a sensory or memory signal in the brain, but there seems to be quite a few options to this, including thalamic feedback to cortex and other emotional or chemically induced changes in mental state.

I try to be very clear about the term "mental state" to indicate the reverberance or layeredness of the mind, and to see that it is not just chemistry that provides the stacking of moments.

I like to see how the stream of consciousness is affected by the variously stacked mental states, and this interest is usually rewarded a great deal with salvia.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleshroomiin
unprofound


Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 2,470
Loc: Zone 6 Flag
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: Homegrower3000]
    #8834819 - 08/27/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Homegrower3000 said:
I've only smoked salvia a couple times, but both times I didn't really trip it just felt like a really short really really intense weed high.
I took about 6 hits and held them in for a fucking long time, until I needed to breathe and I still didn't trip.
Others with me who smoked the same salvia tripped fucking hard.
What am I doing wrong? Any ideas?




get the extract. smoking  the dry leaves themselfs is stupid, i barely tripped at all when i smoked them. I got some 25x extract and tripped balls.

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OfflineOdum
stress of babylon
Male

Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 2,671
Loc: GA
Last seen: 4 months, 19 days
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: shroomiin]
    #8835841 - 08/27/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Dunno I have used all strengths of Salvia and never had a vision of a Lady...In my opinion consciousness is only perception. I tell you what tho I Hate Salvia. Mostly its just disorienting for me. ie dont recognize people, dont know where i am. This drug suuuckkks. Not everything that changes perception is good.

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Invisiblegolden1
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 1,707
Loc: north korea
Re: Salvia Divinorum, some thoughts [Re: Odum]
    #8836185 - 08/27/08 02:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Odum said:
Dunno I have used all strengths of Salvia and never had a vision of a Lady...In my opinion consciousness is only perception. I tell you what tho I Hate Salvia. Mostly its just disorienting for me. ie dont recognize people, dont know where i am. This drug suuuckkks. Not everything that changes perception is good.




Not everything that you don't like is bad :P

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