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OfflineRonoS
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: ]
    #879358 - 09/12/02 12:21 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Violence, naked violence is the essence of all governments.


I disagree...Canada is the perfect example, or Norway...or Australia...all 3 have the highest standard of living in the world, and all have a very small military.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Anonymous

Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: Rono]
    #879396 - 09/12/02 12:42 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. It is not about the military but the very nature of government. What happens when you resist the government? What happens when you take resistence to it's ultimate conclusion? How does government enforce obedience?

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it
is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
."
- George Washington



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: ]
    #879411 - 09/12/02 12:51 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Ah...I did misunderstand your point....my bad.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree for the most part...but as long as governments continue to enforce stupid policies, then the people will contine to disobey them..and of course the government will occasionally have to resort to force to get the masses to comply (ie..the L.A. Riots)...but that's only because violence tends to be met with violence...it's a vicious circle.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: Phluck]
    #879425 - 09/12/02 12:59 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

The goals of the American Revolution were to eliminate British rule.

The goals of a revolution today would be to overthrow the US government.

Hardly different.

Giving up guns is akin to surrender.



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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: ]
    #879432 - 09/12/02 01:02 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

My point comes down to this:
If you think that an armed revolution is even remotely feasible at this point in time in the United States, you're stupid. There is absolutely no way this would work. You've got dozens of militias, none of them agreeing with one another, you've got a populace that has virtually no desire to see their government overthrown, and you've got a government with a powerful, well funded army.

You may think that your country is going down the shitter, but as far as things go, you're one of the more free countries out there. It would be a smaller step to move towards the freedom that you desire democratically than it would through violence.

If you were to start a civil war, you'd probably lose. Hundreds of thousands, or even millions of dead for a lost cause.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: Phluck]
    #879450 - 09/12/02 01:11 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not going to advocate a violent revolution as to do such would be extremely illegal.

That, and you are right about it not being a wise decision at this point.

There are still options available.

But, again look at the American revolution. Ultimately it took an act of force. And the people who fought then were not sure what the proper way was to govern, as it took what, seven years to come up with the Constitution that was finally signed by all of the colonies?, but they were positive as to what was the wrong way to rule.

And I'm sure that all of the militias to which you refer feel the same way today.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: ]
    #879624 - 09/12/02 02:43 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted: it was just beating a long-dead horse.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

Edited by CyberChump (09/12/02 02:48 AM)

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: ]
    #880016 - 09/12/02 06:23 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Violence, naked violence is the essence of all governments. Stripped to it's bare essence, men with guns will force you to obey the government, if you resist strongly enough, they will kill you.




Not exactly. There are some forms of government, or at least political philosophies, where citizens are not "forced" into obediance, only punished for disobedience. The government doesn't force you to obey them. They give you the choice to obey or disobey the laws of the state and if you disobey them then you are punished. There's a difference between force and potential force.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Anonymous

Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: trendal]
    #881342 - 09/13/02 12:54 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

There are some forms of government, or at least political philosophies, where citizens are not "forced" into obediance, only punished for disobedience. The government doesn't force you to obey them. They give you the choice to obey or disobey the laws of the state and if you disobey them then you are punished. There's a difference between force and potential force.



So a robber comes up to you and says, "Give me your money or I'll shoot your kneecap." If you obey him and give him your money, this is not force. If you disobey him and he shoots your kneecap, this is punishment.

I guess you're right, that's how legitimate governments work.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: ]
    #881826 - 09/13/02 09:55 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Does the government have soldiers stationed in your home, pointing guns at you all day long and ordering you what to do?

If they do then you have some serious problems.

The government uses, or is SUPPOSED to use, force ONLY after a law has been broken. That's the way it is here in Canada, and I doubt it is very different in the US. I don't have cops threatening my life until I do something pretty wrong.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: trendal]
    #882380 - 09/13/02 02:34 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

So they can use force if I:
grow marijuana
possess marijuana
conscientiously object to a tax
conscientiously object to a draft
or otherwise violate an unjust law?

It's true it's still a lot better than a lot of places. Now I'm not advocating total lawlessness, but you gotta admit, it gets harder and harder to be completely within the law.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: hongomon]
    #883596 - 09/14/02 06:50 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Well I'm not arguing about whether certain laws are just or not. There are many unjust laws, but they are still laws. And until they are repealed you have the CHOICE about whether or not you want to break those laws. If you break those laws then you had better except the consequences of your actions. If you really don't like the laws that much...move somewhere where they don't exist.

That's what I mean in saying that no one is "forced" to obey any laws. Yes, there is the threat of punishment, but a threat is not a force. It's just a threat. If you don't like the laws, then do something about it. Look where we are now in Canada. Years of lawfull protest and discussion have gotten us to the brink of legalization. If you don't feel like fighting the laws, then move. If you don't feel like doing either and still want to break the laws, then you have to accept responsibility.

No one is forcing you to obey the law, but no one is forcing you to disobey the law.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: trendal]
    #883728 - 09/14/02 08:12 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

trendal writes:

That's what I mean in saying that no one is "forced" to obey any laws. Yes, there is the threat of punishment, but a threat is not a force. It's just a threat.

Oh come on! You expect anyone to buy this sophistry? That statement wouldn't pass muster in an eighth grade debating class.

It's not "just a threat". If you break the law, and they catch you and convict you, they don't "threaten" you with a prison term, they forcibly imprison you.

pinky


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: Phred]
    #884851 - 09/16/02 03:57 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

It's not "just a threat". If you break the law, and they catch you and convict you, they don't "threaten" you with a prison term, they forcibly imprison you.




Yes, because you broke the law. Until you break the law it is just a threat, because until you break the law you shouldn't have to worry about going to jail. No one forces you to break the law, it's something you choose to do knowing that what you are doing is against your country's laws.

That's like if I were to say to you "If you kill my daughter, I'm going to kill you." Am I forcing you to not kill my daughter? No. I am threatening you, yes, by telling you what I will do if you kill my daughter. At no point have I physically restrained (forced) you from killing her.

Force is a physical action. You can not force anything upon a person with mere words (threats).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: trendal]
    #884946 - 09/16/02 05:09 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Trendal's original post was:

Not exactly. There are some forms of government, or at least political philosophies, where citizens are not "forced" into obediance, only punished for disobedience. The government doesn't force you to obey them. They give you the choice to obey or disobey the laws of the state and if you disobey them then you are punished. There's a difference between force and potential force.

One at a time:

There are some forms of government, or at least political philosophies, where citizens are not "forced" into obediance, only punished for disobedience.

Correct. This is a perfect description of Laissez-faire Capitalism, for example. No one is forced to do anything except refrain from violating the rights of others. But even under Capitalism, agencies legalized to use force -- the police, the courts, the military -- are required. These agencies are controlled by the government.

The government doesn't force you to obey them. They give you the choice to obey or disobey the laws of the state and if you disobey them then you are punished.

Still correct. However, if the laws of the state require you to actually DO something you don't want to, as opposed to just going about your life and minding your own business, then force comes into play. For example, ALL governments today force their citizens to pay income tax. Those who don't are forcibly imprisoned. In the Sixties in the United States, young men were forced to join the military. Those who resisted were imprisoned. There are many countries today who still have compulsory military service.

As for the choice of obeying or disobeying, if a CREDIBLE threat of force is involved, it is not a "choice" at all. As Evolving pointed out, a mugger presents you the same "choice" -- "If you disobey my order to give me money I will exert force against you."

There's a difference between force and potential force.

In the context we are discussing -- enforcing obedience to the laws of the state -- there is no difference.

In a later post in this thread, Trendal writes:

Force is a physical action. You can not force anything upon a person with mere words (threats).

Yes you can, if the threat is credible, and a government's threat of force for non-compliance is as credible as it gets.

If you point a gun at a mother's infant and tell her "Give me all your money or I'll kill the kid," clearly you are FORCING the mother to act against her will. That is why extortion is against the law. By your excessively narrow definition, someone who robs a hundred people in this manner yet never actually shoots anyone is not using force. No legal system of any society anywhere in the world at any time in history has ever taken this point of view.

The bottom line is, all government authority ultimately rests on force. This is true no matter which form of government one is discussing. As a matter of fact, it is THE defining attribute of government. A government is a group of individuals in a given society empowered to use force selectively (when necessary) to enforce the laws of that society. A society with no laws (anarchy) requires no government.

pinky


--------------------

Edited by pinksharkmark (09/16/02 05:16 AM)

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: Phred]
    #885051 - 09/16/02 05:53 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Ok I agree with you on most of that post :-)

But I think your reference to mugging and robery is a bit too far. If I am being robbed, then yes I am under direct threat of force. I can only do what the robber says, or refuse knowing that I will probably be shot/stabbed/ect.

However the government does not work exactly the same way. You always, ALWAYS, have the choice to leave. If I'm being robbed I don't have the choice to leave, because leaving is precisely one of the things the robber is forbidding me to do. In most western countries the government will never force you to remain in the country against your will.

I know it may seem slim, but to me it makes all the difference. Basically the government is saying "If you want to live here, then these are the laws you have to obey. If you don't obey the laws you will be punished." Wich is different than "You have to live here. These are the laws you have to obey. If you don't obey the laws you will be punished."

That's the point I was trying to make. Yes, there is a form of force used against citizens, but it is neither total control or immediate force. You always have an option. It may not be one you like (like leaving the country), but it's still an option. Look at countries where the citizens are not allowed to go as they please, N. Korea comes to mind at the moment. That's an example of real force. We are free as birds compared to that.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinefrancisco
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: Phluck]
    #893656 - 09/19/02 01:25 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

we had a bunch like that before.I think we called them the founding fathers.


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Well...Maybe just a little.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: psyphon]
    #893785 - 09/19/02 02:21 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

yuck.
threads like this make me depressed.
I know what's going on, but there's nothing I can do about it.
helplessness is a bitch.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: trendal]
    #894201 - 09/19/02 05:37 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However the government does not work exactly the same way. You always, ALWAYS, have the choice to leave. If I'm being robbed I don't have the choice to leave, because leaving is precisely one of the things the robber is forbidding me to do. In most western countries the government will never force you to remain in the country against your will.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am 17, I cant leave the country, i am property of my parents. When i am 18 i will need money to leave the country, that means i need a job, that means i need to live here, at least for a while.

Just wanted to throw that in.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: United States becoming Police State [Re: BleaK]
    #894388 - 09/19/02 07:10 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Since you're 17 you will reach the age of majority within one year. That is not long. After that you will be free to go where ever you like with or without your parents consent.

A piece of advise though. If you are really serious about moving you should do it before you get established in a job because you will get to like the money coming in and stay where you would rather not because you like having the money. If you need to leave than do it before you put down serious roots like having a job and a car payment etc. It will hold you back and keep you from pursuing what you want, if you're serious about leaving.

Good luck.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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