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Offlineshroomizzy
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Additives to the horse manure
    #8759541 - 08/11/08 06:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

There is this friend of mine that has grown before. He has used horse manure/straw mix, but is thinking about adding 10% gypsum and 5%verm to the poo mix. Would this suffice mixing it with straw, or would that be best for poo alone?

I'm looking to not only succeed but excel at the next flush I have, which I understand temp, rh, light and air exchange will all play a role in this.


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Edited by shroomizzy (09/01/08 12:27 PM)

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Offlineshroomizzy
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8860290 - 09/01/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Basically I am wondering if the vermiculite and gypsum to the horse manure is ideal when combined to straight manure. Or if this same mixure in the manure will still suffice mixed with straw as well. I am asking this because to do the mix to the manure you would prepare the manure separate from the straw. In the past I prepared both the manure and straw together at once.

Just a thought I am having


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8860667 - 09/01/08 01:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It's kind of hard to try and understand what you are saying but I'll try.
Horse manure can be done by itself at a 1:4 ratio, straw can be done at a 1:10 ratio. When mixing both you could get up to a 1:6 ratio and this would be fine.
Adding gypsum is almost essential to have a balanced pH and give extra nutrients. You could use vermiculite or not if you want, but adding it will increase your yield, and protection against contaminants.

Basically if you can find/afford both I would recommend it to boost your yields, because it will


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: skaterickets]
    #8860698 - 09/01/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

pasteurise all together, I use manure and coir works great, verm will be fine too.


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: Juke Adro]
    #8860771 - 09/01/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think 5% gypsum and 5% verm is recommend. There is supposed to be some sort of reservoir effect to adding verm to a substrate but with straw in there it may have reservoirs already. I'm not totally familiar with straw in that respect.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8860895 - 09/01/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Straw also contains nutrients... :thumbup:


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8860915 - 09/01/08 02:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi shroomizzy,

How are you? :smile:

What benefit are you hoping to see from the gypsum?  IMO it isn't very useful and has to be used with caveats.  If you using it to 'fluff' up your h.poo I would suggest against it.

You probably shouldn't add gypsum unless the pH is over 5.5 and I doubt it is in most h.poo.

It seems like many people have great success here with just h.poo.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/cabarrus/staff/dgoforth/limefaq.html#L20
Quote:

What is gypsum?
Gypsum, is calcium sulfate. It doesn't change the soil pH. Applying gypsum to an acid soil (pH less than 5.5) can have adverse effects on certain crops by displacing soil aluminum, which is toxic to plant roots. Use lime until your pH is at the desired level. Then use gypsum to add more calcium.

Can gypsum be used instead of lime?
No. It doesn't change the soil pH. Use lime until your pH is at the desired level. Then use gypsum to add more calcium.



(If gypsum can cause phytotoxicity in plants I'd wager it'll cause mycotoxicity.)


BTW, this is what I'm adding to my h.poo sub this week.  Each amendment has a purpose, IMO that's important when deciding what amendments to use.  I haven't used this before but I'm using it with Ecuador soon :smile:

For my sub, I will pasteurize a slightly dry mix of h.poo, vermiculite, baby oatmeal and oat flower.  Then I'll moisten it to optimal moisture, btw, what is considered the optimal moisture content percentage of h.poo sub, 70%?  For post-pasteurization water I'm going to use distiled water (boiled for 15 minutes) to which I'll add AEM at 1:50 (or 1:25), along with organic yucca (no preservatives) and cold processed kelp extract (no preservatives), humic acid, organic unsulfurated black strap molasses and maybe MetaNaturals organic calcium...all to feed the microbes and the dead microbes from AEM, yucca, humic, kelp (potassium) and calcium are for the p.cubes...




HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/01/08 02:32 PM)

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OfflineHazeyRoms
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8860975 - 09/01/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

-This is the miracle mix (For those who don't have elephant shit)


-30% Coco Coir
-30% Horse manure (Better if you have elephant poo)
-10% Chicken manure
-10% Vermiculite
-10% Lime(Drywall powder -OR- 5% hydrated lime)
-10% Worm castings

Then pasturize together.

++Dont forget to put SEPERATE PASTURIZED VERM in the bottom, then lay down the colonized grain, then add the miracle mix on top of the grain. Incubate & expect some Paul Bunyun sized fruits.

:bendoverrover:


--------------------
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Edited by HazeyRoms (09/01/08 02:43 PM)

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8861008 - 09/01/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I always have a hard time wording my questions the way I am thinking them. This is what I am going to do. I'm going to prepare the horse manure with the vermiculite and gypsum and then pasteurize on its own. I am going to take straw and pasteurize. And then combine the two and spawn. Its hard for me to word what I'm getting at.

Sorry for the unclear question


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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
    #8861057 - 09/01/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey shroomizzy,

Did you miss the info I posted about gypsum?  I don't think people know that when they first started adding gypsum to sub.  But for casing where the pH is suggested to be around 7-8 gypsum is fine, although has questionable  effectiveness.  I'd wager people took the idea of adding gypsum to casing and applied it to sub without realizing if the pH of sub is below 5.5 they can very possibly injure there fungals...

So, IMO, don't use gypsum in sub, but if you really want to make sure the pH is above 5.5.  But, at that high of a pH your outside the preferred sub pH range of p.cubes...

HTH :smile:

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8861639 - 09/01/08 04:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

To be clear brandnubie I know straw contains nutes, I was saying that if you were doing a poo/straw sub you may not need verm.

HazeyRoms: you mean gypsum not lime, but sounds decent.

I've used this with nice results:
50% coir
25% hpoo
10% spent coffee grounds
5%  Cow poo compost
5%  Gypsum
5%  Verm

Sometimes I increase the amount of cow poo compost and decrease the amount of coffee grounds to compensate for a lack of grounds.
One time I did it like this for a lack of grounds and a concern Hpoo would begin to mold:
50% Hpoo
30% coir
10% cow poo compost
5%  Gypsum
5%  Verm

Waiting on those results still though.
Main thing is that diversity is supposed to be the best thing for substrates.

As for Quickpick: I know some people advocate this approach and it does probibly increase your colonization speeds, but it also increases chances for contams. So with indoor cultivation particularly it is instrumental. Additional when you are doing multiple flushes it is critical in preventing radical PH swings that will bunk further flushing.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8861870 - 09/01/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey ST,

If your pH is below 5.5 than gypsum has no positive effect, only negative.  Only once you go over 5.5 than it does have the positive effect you mention, but, IMO it's better to rely upon the fungals and microbes to regulate the pH of sub they use, especially h.poo.  And it's probably best to keep the pH of the sub below 5.5 in most cases which means it's probably best to not add gypsum which would first require the addition of c.lime or h.lime to raise the pH; then gypsum could be added, not before...otherwise you are possibly creating a mycotoxic environment in your sub. 

I know I'm new here but I'm pretty sure no one advocates adjusting the pH of h.poo.  Though I may be wrong.  I for one wouldn't adjust it.

If your casing is over pH 5.5 (which they almost always are, 7-8 is suggested I think) then gypsum is fine to add in terms of not hurting the fungals.

HTH :smile:

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8861915 - 09/01/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

actual many people stand to a 5% gypsum addition to a mix. Gypsum breaks down when the PH becomes too low and raises it to an equilibrium level that is somewhere in the order of 8-4.5 so it keeps the sub at an average of ~6 a decent PH for myc but not for contams.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8861940 - 09/01/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Contams would thrive in a ph of 6...Where did you hear that they dont?


--------------------
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.  (Homer)

Look, the thing about my family is there's five of us. Marge, Bart, Girl Bart, the one who doesn't talk, and the fat guy. How I loathe him. (Drunk Homer)

All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I fuck like you wanna fuck, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not. (Tyler Durden)

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: Krez]
    #8861947 - 09/01/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know probibly RR or some other un-reliable source like that.

"Mushroom mycelium grows fastest at pH about 5.5 to 6.5" -RR
"An acidic casing layer will favor trichoderma and other molds, while mushroom mycelium is more tolerant of basic PH." -RR

So low PHes like 4.5ish favor tricoderma (why we add lime to casings with peat moss in them). And even if cubes like lower PHes better they are still strong in PHes of 6.5-5.5 that will result from using gypsum in your sub.

Edit: :bitchplease:


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (09/01/08 07:08 PM)

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8863098 - 09/01/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey ScavengerType,



Quote:

actual many people stand to a 5% gypsum addition to a mix.




Yes but that doesn't mean they should be adding it, science is always preferable to "well that's just how its done".  If you could provide me with the science to back up your argument I would be very happy to read them.  IMO like I said, I think this is a carry over from it's use in a casing without the understanding that pH would need to be adjusted.  I'm not in anyway trying to knock your knowledge or skill and I know you didn't start the idea of adding gypsum to sub, I just want to get the most accurate info out there...


Quote:

Gypsum breaks down when the PH becomes too low




No it doesn't as far as I understand.  But it will cause other trouble I listed.


Quote:

and raises it [pH] to an equilibrium level that is somewhere in the order of 8-4.5 so it keeps the sub at an average of ~6 a decent PH for myc but not for contams.




No it doesn't.  Gypsum doesn't change pH of media at all.  That's why you have to adjust pH with something like c.lime or h.lime before you apply gypsum.  Gypsum is a source of Ca and S, and it's said to 'fluff' up media and stabilize pH when it's over 5.5, both of which I have some doubts about.  Where did you hear a pH of 6 stops 'bad' microbes and other 'bad' organisms?  That won't help at all, you need a higher pH than that, more like 8 or higher and even that isn't a guarantee. 

IMO the best why to protect from contamination may very well turn out to be the use of 'good' microbes which prevent 'bad' microbes, that's how it's done in Nature as far as I understand.  In Nature higher fungals like p.cube do not generally grow in substances with a high pH (or at all that I know of), but they are found in substances teaming with other microbes and life (eg. h.poo)...

HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/01/08 10:02 PM)

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType] * 1
    #8863315 - 09/01/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey again ST :smile:

Quote:

by ST:
I don't know probibly RR or some other un-reliable source like that.

"Mushroom mycelium grows fastest at pH about 5.5 to 6.5" -RR




Please see this post of mine and the PDF I uploaded and RR's post regarding mine, the whole thread is worth a read:

Mine and PDF: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8854104#Post8854104

RR response: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8854256#Post8854256

Whole thread:Does Growing Medium Ph Affect Potency?



Quote:

by ST:
"An acidic casing layer will favor trichoderma and other molds, while mushroom mycelium is more tolerant of basic PH." -RR

So low PHes like 4.5ish favor tricoderma (why we add lime to casings with peat moss in them). And even if cubes like lower PHes better they are still strong in PHes of 6.5-5.5 that will result from using gypsum in your sub.




That's not accurate.  Trichoderma prefer a pH of 3.5-4.5 but spores will germinate and they will grow in a pH of 2-7.5.  See references: [1][2][3][4]. 

And lime is added to peat because peat is so low of pH, about 3.6-4.2, which is perfect for tricoderma.  But a pH of 4.5, 5, 5.2, 6, 7, etc will grow tricoderma too.  For many, many years organic farmers who's pH is around 6 prevented tricoderma by usage of beneficial microorganisms...they work and I stongly believe they'll work in this instance too :smile:

Here is a quote which is appropriate:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x7gp2621972t57t7/
Quote:

Both the tip extension rate and the branching frequency varied with the pH and had maximum values around pH 4.5. The time of spore germination was dependent on the pH, but within the used pH-range (2.2–7.6), no significant effect of pH on the fraction of viable spores was observed.






[1] "Identification and characterization of Trichoderma species aggressive to Pleurotus in Italy"
http://scholar.ilib.cn/A-zjdxxb-nyysm200404084.html


[2] "In vitro water activity and pH dependence of mycelial growth and extracellular enzyme activities of Trichoderma strains with biocontrol potential
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15521204


[3] "Influence of pH on the morphology ofTrichoderma reeseiqm 9414 in submerged culture."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x7gp2621972t57t7/


[4] "Influence of acidity on the growth of Trichoderma viride Pers. ex Fr. and on the inhibitory effect of its filtrates against Fomes annosus (Fr.) Cke. in artificial cultures"
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120806909/abstract


Hope you have a nice day and I hope there aren't any hard feelings :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/01/08 10:23 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
    #8863967 - 09/02/08 12:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I may be jumping the gun on this call here i only read the intro looked at recorded variables and skipped to the discussion, but the two tests of your cited paper which was an interesting read and RRs own study is quality vs quantity.
RR noticed a greater quantity of mushroom growth at 5.5-6.5 PH and this is unambiguous his research data is he tried different PHes (with an isolate or a few of them I assume) and found growth optimal at those PHes.
However though how the data relates to it is confusing to me your cited study, "The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture by Psilocybe cubensis", is more in examining potency and growth effects from different nutrients and deprivation of. The real bitch of this study is that in it's section testing simply grow time, ph, yield and potency (the relevant portion of the article) there is a gap between rather a giant leap between phes of 4.6 and 7.6. Now that is a huge leap the study takes some 4.# and 7.# and averages them out to get a figure for 6.1 PH but it's not really testing it it's just a presumed average. So to be honest on that count the study doesn't really check the results against the level that RR cites as the optimal level. This paper claims more psilocybin % aka better potency and slightly better yields. Though the data in that study is real ambiguous and does leave a huge gap in testing.
I'm going to read the rest of it tonight and shoot myself in the foot and apologize if I find something surprising but this study is not really proof in my mind that RR is wrong on either front of quantity or quality because of that enormous data gap.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (09/02/08 12:52 AM)

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8863970 - 09/02/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I don't know probibly RR or some other un-reliable source like that.

"Mushroom mycelium grows fastest at pH about 5.5 to 6.5" -RR
"An acidic casing layer will favor trichoderma and other molds, while mushroom mycelium is more tolerant of basic PH." -RR

So low PHes like 4.5ish favor tricoderma (why we add lime to casings with peat moss in them). And even if cubes like lower PHes better they are still strong in PHes of 6.5-5.5 that will result from using gypsum in your sub.

Edit: :bitchplease: 




Whatever you say man.


--------------------
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.  (Homer)

Look, the thing about my family is there's five of us. Marge, Bart, Girl Bart, the one who doesn't talk, and the fat guy. How I loathe him. (Drunk Homer)

All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I fuck like you wanna fuck, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not. (Tyler Durden)

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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: Krez]
    #8864006 - 09/02/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Gypsum breaks down when the PH becomes too low



No it doesn't as far as I understand.  But it will cause other trouble I listed.





"Gypsum contains both calcium carbonate and sulfur, thus it tends to keep the pH near neutral, preventing swings as the metabolites try to push the pH down." -RR

"Actually, gypsum contains calcium which raises pH, and sulfur which lowers pH, resulting in a buffer that prevents wild swings in either direction." -RR

So I was miss-citing the information in that it's already quite broken down but it does prevent PH swings.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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