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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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9/11 Tragedy & Prayer
    #875635 - 09/10/02 09:08 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Note: I was as horrified as anyone and cried every night for weeks after the event though I knew no one personally. I mention this because I do NOT want to get into issues of compassion nor politics here.

Was watching one of the anniversary news specials on the WTC attack. Every hundreth word in the interviews was either "prayer" or "prayed". Many held prayer vigils. As expected, the survivor's families ALL said it was a miracle. Those who lost family and friends claimed it was "The Will of God".

I guess I will never understand this unsubstantiated superstition despite the weak arguments put forth by fellow shroomerites. The results are no different than the random luck model. Atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Christians, Hindus all burned to a crisp equally. Survivor demographics was about the same.

Here is a substantial real-world test with ZERO evidence to back up the alleged Power of Prayer to affect the outcome of events.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/11/02 03:18 AM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #875648 - 09/10/02 09:13 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Huh?
God doesn't interfere with our free will


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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #875675 - 09/10/02 09:28 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I agree with shroomism, god holds no sway over the happenings of earth...


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RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #875905 - 09/11/02 01:44 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

No funny's no bull... But..

In reply to:

The Will of God




I thought it was the will of Bin Laden...
An act risen from a religious point of view. And more...


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:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #875993 - 09/11/02 04:22 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

The will of God is that we have complete free choice.

There's no interference.

There's no punishment.

It's up to us to decide what works best for us. Obviously killing doesn't work most of the time.



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Mp3 of the month:  Wendell Austin and The Country Swings- LSD



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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Fliquid]
    #875995 - 09/11/02 04:24 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

"An act risen from a religious point of view. "

the true motives behind the terrorism had very little to do with a conflict of religious beliefs


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Lallafa]
    #876017 - 09/11/02 04:39 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Sorry wrong layout of my text.

I meant this:

In reply to:

Those who lost family and friends claimed it was "The Will of God".





I find that rather a great example for people to soothe they're selfs...


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:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Fliquid]
    #876252 - 09/11/02 03:33 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

i personally view this as a narrative constructed by top secret black ops government organizations. just think how this has benefited our president! he is now george bush: defender of the people! whereas he used to be georgie bush: daddy's little boy stole the election! he now has a war to wage, the economy is picking back up (except on 9/11), the american people have faith again! and a new holiday!!!! you can never underestimate the importance of entertaining the people! this may have been tragic for some people but just look what it's done for the country!!! and just think what this does for the police state. the american people are begging to be enslaved. now the gov't has a good justification for all those civil rights they've been trying to take away under the guise of fighting the drug war... now they can fight the war against terror! ok..i may be a little insane, these things may not have been intended. but they are actual effects.

another POV: bin laden may actually have something worthwhile to say. of course we would never hear it....because all the news ever plays are his negative comments toward the USA. the other broadcast were deemed unfit to be shown because they could contain "encoded messages to his followers." yeah right. As americans we are isolated from the rest of the world. we think we are free and intelligent and sophisticated...but we're not. we're really a bunch of ignorant, pleasure seeking, clock-work fucks living in a techno bubble. we skip and hop along in happy land with our eyes closed to the world and then wonder why oh why would some one want to blow us up!?!

the tv offers an easy answer: they're insane.


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All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #876412 - 09/11/02 04:58 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I understand why they do it. They feel better when they do. Prayer is a conditioned response to tragedy for theists. I think that's okay. What's REALLY dumb is when football players thank Jesus after winning the super bowl. As if Jesus is a Cowboys fan or something.



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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineCalen
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #876699 - 09/11/02 07:08 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

People greatly affected by the 9/11 will say such to help cope. Others say it because it's fashionable to do so like so many musicians who come up to podium for their awards. Except, in this case, these people are not thanking the ol Almighty up there.


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: vaporbrains]
    #878633 - 09/11/02 06:16 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

The only place to gain some truth, is at the scene.


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:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #879971 - 09/12/02 07:47 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

"Religion is the opium of the people", to understand this we got to look at this prayers like just a manifestation of a similar characteristic between several dominant religions.
People could stand there just thinking about their lives and about how they could prevent this from happening again instead they use prayers, but what's the use of this technique when it simply fails, i mean what's the result of all this prayers? Vengeance .... If they believe in a god of goodness and pray to him, why are they the first ones to discredit their own faith by inflicting martyrdom to others ? Hypocrisy ....
I felt deeply sorry when all this happened, i couldn't believe what my eyes saw, all those people... eye for an eye is the answer, you can blame yourselfs for mankinds faith and may your prayers bring a better future but as for today they are not working.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: vaporbrains]
    #880031 - 09/12/02 08:36 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I couldn't of said it better myself.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: vaporbrains]
    #880056 - 09/12/02 08:58 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Vaporbrains I agree. You try telling most people these things though and they look at you like you have 3 heads. These "attacks" seem to have worked how they were supposed to... Anyone who questions authority is automatically put under suspicion of being a terrorist.  :frown: 


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: vaporbrains]
    #880999 - 09/12/02 08:20 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

In reply to:

i may be a little insane, these things may not have been intended. but they are actual effects.



Very true.

In reply to:

As americans we are isolated from the rest of the world. we think we are free and intelligent and sophisticated...but we're not. we're really a bunch of ignorant, pleasure seeking, clock-work fucks living in a techno bubble. we skip and hop along in happy land with our eyes closed to the world and then wonder why oh why would some one want to blow us up!?!



You know, americans are seen that way by most people here in europe, remember the Berlim wall ? The US has also a wall, a very tall idelogical wall wich gives them a distorted vision of the world. I've wacthed in the TV american youngsters speak about this issues and they think their country was the movie "good guy", helping people in Africa (While they explore their resources and support dictatorship like regimes to do so), helping Israel fighting back evil palestinians (where palestinians fight for the same right to the land), freeing oppressed countries like kwait (Where the royal regime is no better than the Iraqui), please, americans have to realise one thing this world is not like your west to be conquered and you are not "the good guys", there's not such thing.
Untill now, every US citizen outside the US had a sense of security because they could return to their country if the situation outside gets bad, that sense of security has ended, now they feel the insecurity most of our world suffer and wich the US is also responsable, directly and indirectly.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: MAIA]
    #881091 - 09/12/02 11:06 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

I've wacthed in the TV american youngsters speak about this issues and they think their country was the movie "good guy"

Good point! But can you blame them? Our culture is set up in a way that whatever the TV and especially movies say is true, that is what most young people copy. We seem to be just a modernized version of Rome or Greece, except our "gods" are in the movies. It's sad that people grow up with this outlook without any outside influences to help them question the authority of hollywood values. And by the time they are old enough to learn about the outside influences, it usually is too much to handle and they stubbornly stay asleep.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Adamist]
    #881134 - 09/13/02 12:19 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

"It's sad that people grow up with this outlook without any outside influences to help them question the authority of hollywood values."

You mean like the ones found in The Matrix?

Cheers,


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #881154 - 09/13/02 12:38 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

I am no fan of communism, but they were right when they said that religion is the opium for the masses.
Unfortunately this tragic event will be remembered and drilled to our heads like the holocaust for now on.
I am sure a movie is next.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: LOBO]
    #881185 - 09/13/02 01:00 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

(Not to LOBO)

I guess no one will respond to why the prayers of the doomed and their families was totally ineffective.

Nor will most people respect my suggestion to keep this apolitical.

Communication is a wonderful thing...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #881207 - 09/13/02 01:16 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Jeez, Swami, you ask questions that expose religion to be a fraud and then exp-ect us to answer them?  Come on, I figured you were smarter than that. :wink:

Seriously, since I did not know the persons personally or on a deep level I cannot speculate.  For all I know your perception would keep you from the answer in any event.  If I had more knowledge I might offer a suggestion.  I do know this though.  Prayer works.  I have had many experiences in my life where no other answer will do.  I was miraculously healed of cancer when I was 18 and have the documentation to prove it.  But that was just the start.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #881271 - 09/13/02 02:14 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

In reply to:

Here is a substantial real-world test with ZERO evidence to back up the alleged Power of Prayer to affect the outcome of events.



-Pretty much.

That's not to say it is going to stop anybody from praying.
Let the People have thier prayers/magic/etc...if its all shit, then why do ppl get so pissed when it does not work.?
-OoD
PS- this is not is not directed to anyone, I just have this view, and it usually gives me hell.

pardon the pun.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #881732 - 09/13/02 11:00 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

If prayer is placebo then feed me a life-time supply of sugar pills.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #882300 - 09/13/02 03:55 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

You need to do a better job of defining ineffective. Death doesn't mean ineffective.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: chemkid]
    #882327 - 09/13/02 04:10 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Death doesn't mean ineffective.

That certainly fails the litmus test when hundreds of terrified souls are praying for life.

What does "Ask and you shall receive." mean?

I hope your response is not the best a believer can come up with.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: 9/11 Tragedy & Prayer [Re: Swami]
    #882356 - 09/13/02 04:24 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Swami, you're betraying your logic. Who's litmus test are you referring to? It may not fit your test but it fits mine fine. I am not saying I would be happy if I prayed for my mother not to die and she did anyway, but that doesn't negate the power of my praying.

The whole "ask and you shall receive" line is a cop out. Swami, I expect better from you. You know you are using this out of context. Ask and ye shall receive doesn't mean you get everything you want. It means be faithful and your life will be blessed. Ask for forgivness and it will be granted. It does not mean ask for a new Benz and you will receive. You are so caught up in the physical world that you think what is bad on this plane of existence is also bad on another.

Of course you're right.....I can not prove any of this to you, nor do I strive to do this impossible task. I simply urge you to not judge or pitty those of us who have other methods of finding peace.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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