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Invisiblethedude21351
Duderino

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 41
Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form...
    #8738318 - 08/07/08 10:33 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

FOAFs setup:

FC: ~60L Rubbermaid tote with 4-5 inches of rinsed/drained perlite, small holes for ventilation/FAE (kind of like Fahtsters tubs)

Substrate: standard BRF cakes, dunked (24 hrs) and rolled in verm, each resting on a small square of aluminum

FAE/H2O: 4-6 mistings + fannings a day

Hygrometer: purchased from cigar shop, calibrated every 2 weeks

Humidity: 98-100%

Strain: PE


A FOAF has had problems recently with their cakes drying out right around the time when the first hyphal knots appear. From the day the cakes were put into the FC, they were given 4-6 fanning/misting sessions a day and the cakes showed lots of healthy, fluffy white growth. At the first sign of knots/pins, FOAF stops misting (to avoid damaging pins) but continues fanning about 3-4 times a day. It is during this time period of "no misting" that the cakes dry out (usually over 2-3 days). The fluffy white growth begins to turn blue, followed by most of the cake turning blue. Pins start to abort like crazy, other fruits show stunted growth, wimpy looking fruits, etc.

In reading many of the posts here, the general consensus  is to hold back on the mistings when knots appear. Once the pins are well established (~1 inch), the mistings (follwed by fannings) may continue. This method had worked quite well for FOAF for a few years. Never a dry, blue cake. Always hydrated and healthy, always nice big fruits. However, FOAF moved about 50 miles north and ever since then, it seems that holding back on mistings for a couple of days is now causing the cakes to dry... What can they do different?

FOAF considered misting at the first sign of dryness, but there were already too many knots/pins everywhere. What can they do in the future to maintain proper hydration during the period of knot/pin formation?

Edited by thedude21351 (08/07/08 10:42 AM)

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Offlinejohnny.fairplay
StrangerThanFishin
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 454
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: thedude21351]
    #8738357 - 08/07/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You can mist the sides of the container, this will help to keep moisture up a little more at this time.

Did you dunk your cakes?  Edit: nevermind


--------------------
My trade thread

Edited by johnny.fairplay (08/07/08 10:42 AM)

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Invisiblethedude21351
Duderino

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 41
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: johnny.fairplay]
    #8738395 - 08/07/08 10:48 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnny.fairplay said:
You can mist the sides of the container, this will help to keep moisture up a little more at this time.

Did you dunk your cakes?  Edit: nevermind




Yeah. FOAF didn't think misting the sides was that critical... RR made the comment once that misting the sides when the cakes are dry is pointless. Anyway, the first time FOAF had this problem they did not mist the sides. This second time around, out of desperation, FOAF had been misting the sides of the chamber. Cakes still dry out.

Yes, dunked and rolled.

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
Male

Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: thedude21351]
    #8738423 - 08/07/08 10:54 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

it really sounds like your cake went dry.. dunk it in water overnight and roll it in vermiculite to get more moisture in the cake.. usually when they start aborting, especially when all your atmospheric conditions are correct (like yours), then its going to be the substrate drying out.. its trying to force fruit out, but has not water to do it... dunk and roll next time, and you will have happy results..

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
Newbie Sympathizer
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 421
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: johnny.fairplay]
    #8738428 - 08/07/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

What are the temperature conditions in the FC and in the room?

Do the cakes feel noticably lighter when they are showing signs of dehydration?

One thing to try might be to use the old trick of drilling a hole in the center of a cake and inserting a straw, then filling w/ water. If the problem is dehydration, then this might let you rehydrate the cake even during knotting.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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Invisiblethedude21351
Duderino

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 41
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8738457 - 08/07/08 11:01 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PowerOfTheCoir said:
What are the temperature conditions in the FC and in the room?



FC: about 74-76 F on average, 98-100% humidity
Room: about 72-73 F on average, 60-70% humidity

Quote:

Do the cakes feel noticably lighter when they are showing signs of dehydration?



Yes.

Quote:

One thing to try might be to use the old trick of drilling a hole in the center of a cake and inserting a straw, then filling w/ water. If the problem is dehydration, then this might let you rehydrate the cake even during knotting.



Hmm.... good suggestion. Perhaps they will try this next time. Hmm....

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
Male

Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: thedude21351]
    #8738473 - 08/07/08 11:04 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

ooorrr.. you can just dunk and roll...

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OfflinePowerOfTheCoir
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Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 421
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8738506 - 08/07/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DJYoshaBYD said:
ooorrr.. you can just dunk and roll...




I thought the same thing when I read the main post until I re-read it a few times and noticed that I was overlooking this:
Quote:

Substrate: standard BRF cakes, dunked (24 hrs) and rolled in verm, each resting on a small square of aluminum





The OP appears to be doing everything right. He's dunking, rolling, misting, using thick perlite w/o standing water, and putting the cakes on foil. I think the straw method is usually overkill, but I don't see any room for improvement with him using standard methods.

Oh, anther thought - try piling some wet verm on top of the cakes. You can mist it directly and it will help keep the cakes hydrated without affecting pins that are forming on the sides/bottom edge.


--------------------
Check out my first ever TEK!
Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
Male

Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: PowerOfTheCoir]
    #8738540 - 08/07/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

hmmm... yeah.. I honestly dont know then.. weak ass strain" lol.. if everything is done how you said it was done, then there should be no issues.. sooo, if they are running dry, then you have too much air flow or something taking that moisture away, which doesnt make any sense, because you said your RH is at 100%.. im at a loss.. lol

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Offlineray40cal
omnitrippint
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Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 1,308
Loc: midwest side
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8738624 - 08/07/08 11:44 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

thats why i use a jar lid to place them in instead of a square of foil. It's basicly the same thing as double end casing: Jar lid big enough to fit wet verm under and around the base of the cake, and a layer of wet verm on top of the cake, always dunk/roll. With the jar lid even if the cake gets dry in the middle of fruiting you can usually pick it up and pour some extra water in the lid so it sits on the water and soaks it up.  This is more preventive to dehydration than a cure though, the straw method might be a way to cure it quickly. RR also suggested placing them in a saucer of clean water overnight.

edit: you misted a few hours after rolling didn't you? this gets the roll verm moist without making it slide off.


--------------------

Edited by ray40cal (08/07/08 11:47 AM)

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Invisiblethedude21351
Duderino

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 41
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: ray40cal]
    #8738665 - 08/07/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ray40cal said:
edit: you misted a few hours after rolling didn't you? this gets the roll verm moist without making it slide off.




Yes, they did that, too.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
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Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: thedude21351]
    #8739276 - 08/07/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

At the first sign of knots/pins, FOAF stops misting (to avoid damaging pins) but continues fanning about 3-4 times a day. It is during this time period of "no misting" that the cakes dry out (usually over 2-3 days).




That's the problem. 

You should continue misting, and to hell with misting the sides.  What good does that do in a 99% humidity environment?.  It isn't misting that causes aborts, but rather misting and then sealing up in an 'old school' air tight terrarium while the pins are still wet.  If you provide plenty of fresh air to your terrarium, you can and should gently mist the cakes (and fruits) from birthing right through harvest.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Offlinechiz
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 67
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8739477 - 08/07/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

At the first sign of knots/pins, FOAF stops misting (to avoid damaging pins) but continues fanning about 3-4 times a day. It is during this time period of "no misting" that the cakes dry out (usually over 2-3 days).




That's the problem. 

You should continue misting, and to hell with misting the sides.  What good does that do in a 99% humidity environment?.  It isn't misting that causes aborts, but rather misting and then sealing up in an 'old school' air tight terrarium while the pins are still wet.  If you provide plenty of fresh air to your terrarium, you can and should gently mist the cakes (and fruits) from birthing right through harvest.
RR




I thought water on pins = aborts?

I forget where I read that.

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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
Male

Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: chiz]
    #8739493 - 08/07/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

water on pins equals aborts if there is no airflow, cause they rot...

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Invisiblethedude21351
Duderino

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 41
Re: Suggestions? Cakes dry out whenever knots begin to form... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8744431 - 08/08/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

At the first sign of knots/pins, FOAF stops misting (to avoid damaging pins) but continues fanning about 3-4 times a day. It is during this time period of "no misting" that the cakes dry out (usually over 2-3 days).




That's the problem. 

You should continue misting, and to hell with misting the sides.  What good does that do in a 99% humidity environment?.  It isn't misting that causes aborts, but rather misting and then sealing up in an 'old school' air tight terrarium while the pins are still wet.  If you provide plenty of fresh air to your terrarium, you can and should gently mist the cakes (and fruits) from birthing right through harvest.
RR




I'll make sure that FOAF mists all the way from birth through harvest from now on. No more misting the sides, either.

Thanks to RR and also to everyone else who chimed in. On to the next flush!!!

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