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Mycelio
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Grain spawn without pressure cooking 8
#8729280 - 08/05/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hello everybody,
recently, while experimenting with fermented substrates, I discovered an easy way to create grain spawn without the need to sterilize anything. I am using it for Pleurotus ostreatus and Pleurotus eryngii. A few tries indicate it also works for Stropharia rugosoannulata, Coprinus comatus and cubes (see below), perhaps also for Agrocybe aegerita. No success with Agaricus bisporus yet.
Heres what you have to do: - Soak the grain for 24 hours. - Cook it shortly, so the kernels wont germinate. - Rinse it with clean water. - Fill jars half with the cooked grain. - Add water until filled up to three quarters. - Remove kernels, which are floating on top. - Close the lid loosely. - Wait. - Turn the jars every day or use a clean spoon and stir around.
After a few days lactic acid fermentation will start, like in bread baking with sourdough or like in bacterial contam. This time it is what we want. You will notice bubbles of air rising and a sour and fruity smell appears. Let it bubble for another few days.
Possible problems: - If you notice a whitish film on the surface, there is yeast growing on top. Use a clean spoon and remove it. - Some kernels will rise to the surface. If you don't move the jars, they may stay there, dry out partially and green mold can grow. - Sometimes, When waiting too long like one or two months, other bacteria take over and produce acetic acid, which seems to be toxic for mushroom mycelium.
The PH falls from 7 to 4 and after a week or two, the grain is ready. Strain the water and inoculate with fresh and clean mushroom stems or mycelium growing in wood or straw. Use at least a spoonful and don't mix. Just put it on top. Now it will take several days for the mycelium to adapt to the low PH. The above mentioned mushroom species are known to digest bacteria, so they will happily eat whatever they find and grow vigorously and dense into the grain.
The whole process takes longer than the sterile way and needs a bigger amount of starting mycelium, but you don't need a pressure cooker, HEPA-filter, glove box and all that stuff. You can work on your kitchen table and open air. Just be clean. Of course you should keep the jars closed after inoculation, but you can safely open them from time to time, if you want to check the smell or whatever. The high amount of lactic acid and the active bacteria will prevent mold and yeast from growing, even if spores are present.
A few days after complete colonization, you can use the grain spawn to inoculate wood chips, straw or more fermented grain. Don't expect to be able to shake the jars to separate the kernels. Use a spoon to break your spawn into small pieces. When going to straw or wood chips, mix well.
Thats it for now. Have fun with this method and please post here if you find out it works for other species too. Lentinus edodes will possibly not work well, as shiitake mycelium usually separates itself from bacterial contams, building up the usual brown surface. It may take weeks, until it grows further into the fermented grain.
Greetings, Carsten
PS: Some pictures: Pleurotus eryngii growing into fermented wheat:
Pleurotus ostreatus stems on fermented wheat, fed with wood chips and straw, fruiting outdoor:
Addition: Cube mycelium often fails on fermented grain. If you still want to try, please read the cube related posts here in this thread. For Example: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8876075#8876075
Edited by Mycelio (10/08/11 04:52 PM)
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lipa
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio] 1
#8729350 - 08/05/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thats Great Carsten! Love the pics and the fact that you posted your whole experiment. How did you get introduced t this method or is it purely your own.
That awesome stuff!!!
LIPA
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: lipa]
#8729605 - 08/05/08 03:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks Lipa! After having success with fermented straw, I did dozens of experiments, trying mixtures of straw, coffee grounds, alfalfa hay, wood chips, flour, legumes and so on. Some fermented OK, once I had banana smell, others smelled like puke...
One day I tried fermenting pure grain and it worked best.
First I worried about dangerous bacteria or toxins, but then I realized the same smell as from sourdough. So it is only lactic acid fermentation as it gets used in fermented food, health drinks, agriculture, etc.
Carsten
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: lipa]
#8729622 - 08/05/08 03:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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While I'm very sceptical of the method b/c of safety issues for most of the people too lazy/poor to use sterilization techniques, this is quite intriguing.
Seems to eliminate the bacteria first and foremost by cooking (after the soak). Then, water creates an anaerobic environment, limiting the number, types and quantities of organisms that will proliferate. The growth of yeast and the production of the acids (as metabolic products) lowers the pH, rendering the whole lot unacceptable as a growth medium for a larger and/or different group of organisms.
Perhaps a 1 hour soak in lime water (for neutralization of acids and raising the pH and addition of calcium) would prove a short step to add more selectivity at the end of the process (as we know this works for straw and cardboard).
I might try this at some point with P. ostreatus just to see what turns out. I'm kinda put-off by the comments on the "smell"- I know that smell and it's not pleasant.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8730134 - 08/05/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, all the oxygen in the water is used up by microbes, then the lactobacillus quickly grows and kills or deactivates all the others with lactic acid. I never tried raising the PH before inoculation. It would surely make it easier for the mycelium to colonize, but then the contams would have a chance to grow again.
The initial cooking is only to prevent the seeds from developing roots. Perhaps cooking is not necessary at all. When starting sourdough, I use tap water and fresh flour from untreated grain, where billions of microbes of all types are present and the process still works fine.
Carsten
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worowa
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8730166 - 08/05/08 05:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I've just the done the same thing with Eryngii! Well pretty similar.
I had a bucket of wheat soaking in water with a tablespoon of "Aware" clothes wahing powder. Supposed to be a 24-48hr soak, but I forgot about for a week. When I checked it was bubbling away-yeast fermentation. I drained it, then filled it up with just boiled water...then forgot about again for about another week. This time when I opened it, it smelled sour. I drained it again and poured on some boiled water, then drained it when cooled and inoculated with Eryngii spawn. The growth is now luxuriant, glad I didn't chuck it all out.
I'ld love to try this with King Stropharia-if I could find some spores.
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Juke Adro
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8730181 - 08/05/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thats very cool I really like it, Its worth a play
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waixingren
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio] 1
#8730256 - 08/05/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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thats great Mycelio, i was hoping you would post that on this forum.
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falcon
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8730360 - 08/05/08 06:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Great work Carsten! This is as cool as Phase II composting!
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P.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8732211 - 08/06/08 02:18 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: I never tried raising the PH before inoculation. It would surely make it easier for the mycelium to colonize, but then the contams would have a chance to grow again. Carsten
To my knowledge the "Contaminate" spores/endospores prefer the lower more acidic Ph. Thats what I was assuming was the reason for the "Later" contams taking over casings and cakes. The Metabolites being produced by the Myc. so it can "digest" the grain systematically over time reduces the Ph of the Substrate and allows for the Contaminates to take a foothold. I know Tric, Olive and Black Mold all prefer the lower Ph. I had discovered this fact when I was playing with Pannelus Stipticus Bio-luminescent mushrooms. They prefer a Ph of about 3 to fruit, they will not colonize Neutral Ph MEA, and the contam rate for the species is thru the roof, due to its low Ph requirement.
As I see it raising the Ph would only "help" reduce the risk of contams. Try raising the Ph, or even perhaps adding a small amount of bleach to the water for the initial soak to attempt to kill off a bit of the endospores present before any of the time consuming, boil, rinse, drain, jar, refill steps.
IDK
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wisp
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8732225 - 08/06/08 02:42 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's amazing Mycelio! Great to see people willing to experiment. This is a pretty good method for those people who don't own a pressure cooker. I love it!!
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
#8732355 - 08/06/08 04:39 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
P.Menace said:
Quote:
Mycelio said: I never tried raising the PH before inoculation. It would surely make it easier for the mycelium to colonize, but then the contams would have a chance to grow again. Carsten
To my knowledge the "Contaminate" spores/endospores prefer the lower more acidic Ph. Thats what I was assuming was the reason for the "Later" contams taking over casings and cakes. The Metabolites being produced by the Myc. so it can "digest" the grain systematically over time reduces the Ph of the Substrate and allows for the Contaminates to take a foothold. I know Tric, Olive and Black Mold all prefer the lower Ph. I had discovered this fact when I was playing with Pannelus Stipticus Bio-luminescent mushrooms. They prefer a Ph of about 3 to fruit, they will not colonize Neutral Ph MEA, and the contam rate for the species is thru the roof, due to its low Ph requirement.
As I see it raising the Ph would only "help" reduce the risk of contams. Try raising the Ph, or even perhaps adding a small amount of bleach to the water for the initial soak to attempt to kill off a bit of the endospores present before any of the time consuming, boil, rinse, drain, jar, refill steps.
IDK
Thank you for the explanation!
I once took some fermented grain, put it in a jar and left it open for a few hours, while cleaning up the room to ensure it would receive a high dose of dust and endospores. After two month a strong smell of acetic acid appeared, but no trich or other mold appeared. Blamed it on the PH, but this is misinterpreted then.
So there must be something else happening, preventing mold from growing.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8732460 - 08/06/08 05:57 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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can you fruit right from the fermented grain?
and why can't you inoculate it with spores? because of the acidic milieu?
edit: i guess i'll try it with colonised cardboard asap
Edited by spacel0rd (08/06/08 06:01 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8732644 - 08/06/08 08:09 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Species, which can grow on fermented grain and do not require a casing layer, may fruit by themselves. I'm sure my oysters would have developed fruitbodies, if I gave them enough time.
Once I put spores from Agrocybe aegerita on fermented grain, but nothing happened during four weeks. Together with mold spores not growing there, I'd say the chances are very low.
Carsten
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Springs
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8736281 - 08/06/08 09:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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It may help to start a culture on a plate with a lower ph so the mycelium is used to the low ph environ.
Ive had big bags of sterilized grain spawn colonizing in too high of temps which after shaking have the "smell" but colonize fine after a few days.
I think using EM(efficient microorganisms) in a similar fashion could produce interesting results.
It would be cool to try larger anaerobic vessels, such as 5 gallon buckets, and 45 gallon food containers, could be useful for our door beds and the such.
Ive read of someone fermenting their straw the same way for bulk oyster production.
And of course we cant forget Rejuvelac: http://web.archive.org/web/20070829102646/http://www.hishealingways.com/rejuvelac/makerejuvelac.html http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/recipes/rejuvelac.php and http://rawlivingfoods.typepad.com/1/2007/08/rejuvelac-recip.html
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8736557 - 08/06/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Check out page 177 of GGMM for infomation on the Yeast Fermentation Method. Describes in short order what is going on here.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8737523 - 08/07/08 03:19 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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@Springs & MycoAu Thanks for adding the rejuvelac links and mentioning that part of GGMM here!
I use fermented straw a lot. I simply cover soaked straw pellets with tap water. On the second day fermentation starts. After 4 to 7 days the PH fell to 5,5 to 6 and then I use bare hands (of course clean), press out all the excess water and inoculate. Colonization is faster than in fermented grain. The few trich contams I had, came from contaminated inoculation material.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8737992 - 08/07/08 08:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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To what kind of grains can this method be applied? Or what are main factors for fermentation so I could figure out what to use.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8738487 - 08/07/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Any kind of grain should work.
So far I tried wheat, rye and millet. Also rye grass but it tends to swim on top, when fermentation starts.
Next time I will try brown rice and popcorn.
Carsten
edit: Just be sure everything is under water. All available oxygen will be consumed quickly. The following fermentation is anaerobic.
Edited by Mycelio (08/07/08 11:13 AM)
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Juke Adro]
#8744939 - 08/08/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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i like the idea of adding microorganisms. might add some yoghurt to kickstart fementation. what about a very small amount of yeast? hope it is similar enough not to do any harm. any ideas?
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8745310 - 08/08/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't use yogurt. If you want to that sort of thing, use baker's yeast. It should be easier to control the growth that way.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8745459 - 08/08/08 06:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hm, to avoid misunderstandings... The fermentation I described works with lactobacillus, not with yeast.
But it would be interesting to know, if using yeast would produce comparable results.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8745647 - 08/08/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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ATM I'm trying to understand what is actually happening while fermentation. What biological and chemical processes. And what shields off contaminants. I guess I'll try to find more information about lactobacillus. The wikipedia article lists some foods where lactobacillus is used in the industrial production. Yoghurt is one of them I guess I'll give it a shot. Much nicer than taking a scraping from a vagina or someones gastrointestinal tract.
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8745677 - 08/08/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Interesting enough to quote from wikipedias L. acidophilus article:
Quote:
L. acidophilus ferments lactose into lactic acid, like many (but not all) lactic acid bacteria. Certain related species (known as heterofermentive) also produce ethanol, carbon dioxide, and acetic acid this way. L. acidophilus itself (a homofermentative microorganism) produces only lactic acid. Like many bacteria, L. acidophilus can be killed by excess heat, moisture, or direct sunlight. [...] The breakdown of nutrients by L. acidophilus produces lactic acid, hydrogen peroxide, and other byproducts that make the environment hostile for undesired organisms.
This tells me:
1. Appearently there must be other bacteria/microorganisms than L. acidophilus
2. h2o2 prduction might be what keeps contams off
Thanks a lot Carsten for opening up this discussion. Great. Appearently you were pretty successful with this method. And if we can figure out what's happening exactly we can undertake further improvements.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8747646 - 08/09/08 05:28 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for posting this information, spacel0rd, I also think there is another type of lactobacillus active here. You may also want to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silage and something about rejuvelac. Silage may be closer to the described process as yoghurt, but rejuvelac seems to be exactly the same thing, the only difference is that people drink the fermentation water, while we want to use the grain.
As silage and rejuvelac is done successfully for centuries without adding anything, I do not see much room for improvements when starting the fermentation. By replacing lactobacillus with yeast, we would have to eliminate the alcohol afterwards.
The only thing I wonder about, is what could be done to the grain after fermentation, so that more species of mushrooms could grow on it, while still preventing contaminates from growing. Raising the PH with gypsum and CaCO3 would be possible, though the lactobacillus would become active again, producing more acid. If we would then boil the fermented grain to kill the bacteria we might have contaminates growing again. Well, this needs to be tested...
Carsten
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Tomass
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8749426 - 08/09/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Tomass]
#8756887 - 08/11/08 04:20 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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i hope i can abuse this thread for my fermentation experiments as well. would be nice to have informaion that belongs together in one place rather than scattered. if not, tell me so.
my white rice, submerged in water would not do anything 1 1/2 days. and now suddenly it's bubbling. though no smell yes.
well if my cardboard spawn works out i might have a successful grow totally unsterile. will keep you updated.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8757073 - 08/11/08 06:37 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd be happy if you post your results here! I might have forgotten something in my description, so independent checks would be great.
Didn't get around to test my brown rice yet, but yours should develop a sour and fruity smell very soon. If you can get hold of straw or straw pellets (look in pet stores), you may ferment it the same way. Some species do better, if I first feed them with fermented straw, so I have larger and stronger chunks of mycelium to put on the fermented grain.
Carsten
PS: Found some hints how lactobacillus prevents contams. It shall produce antibacterial and also antibiotic substances to fight its competitor species. I'll continue to find out how it fights mold species. As soon as I run into a good article, I'll post a link.
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metalhead
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8760634 - 08/11/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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will this work with wbs?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: metalhead]
#8761522 - 08/12/08 03:54 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Assuming it means wild bird seed, I'd say yes. Here they sell a mixture of several types of millet with a tiny amount of oat. I use it often and it works great. Just take care to cook it really short after soaking, otherwise too many of the small kernels break. A few are OK, but more and you have a slimy mud which stays too wet after fermentation.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8761759 - 08/12/08 06:48 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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My white rice is bubbling away. Well not really but it's forming more and more bubbles. It smells rather sour. I'l see if it becomes more fruity/sweet.
Btw the I'm sure there won't be any germination, so I'm not going to cook em. Only sad thing is it's taking such a long time. That's why thought of speeding up the frementation process. I'll try soon to use the leftover water with fresh grains if fermentation is sped up.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8762075 - 08/12/08 09:46 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sounds perfect. The fruity aspect is not strong, perhaps you won't notice it at all.
When starting another jar, you can save a day by adding some of the old water or grain. But don't use more than one teaspoon. You don't want the initial PH to be too low for the bacteria to multiply.
It is possible to speed up the process by higher temperatures. In winter I put my jars above the heating. At 35 - 40°C it started and fermented twice as fast. During summer I would recommend a warm place without direct sunlight.
However you do it, you have to start the fermentation one or two weeks before you need the grain, that's true.
Carsten
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thatsstupid
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8762963 - 08/12/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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wow fantistic im so glad u posted this cuz when ur poor and dont have the money for a pressure cooker this works ty alot
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Jean-Luc Picard
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: thatsstupid]
#8764938 - 08/12/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes i was gathering up the balls to go get a pc but now i might try this beforehand, especially since i should have some cubes coming up soon from a current grow
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
#8766683 - 08/13/08 07:03 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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By now it is not clear if cube mycelium is able to grow into fermented grain, so don't expect too much. If it won't succeed, fermented straw will definitely work.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8766702 - 08/13/08 07:15 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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More bubbles coming up. It's getting stinky, somwhat like cheese and kefir. I moved it out of the kitchen.
If cube myc is not going to spread in the grains I'll get some straw from a nearby farm. I guess that's even easier than grain in jars. Just a bucket full of straw.
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8785317 - 08/17/08 03:28 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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MycoAu:
nice thread! It's a really great idea!!! Has anyone tried this with p.cubes? (forgive the Q if it's obvious)
I do a lot of fermentation work with microbes for horticulture (soil food web, microbial loop, zymology, etc) in the form of EM, AEM, IMO, BIM, etc, etc. And LAB, yeast, PnSB etc. I also work extensively with aerobic microbial brews such as ACT.
I haven't read the whole thread yet but here a few quick thoughts:
Quote:
if you notice a whitish film on the surface, there is yeast growing on top. Use a clean spoon and remove it.
That "whiteish film" is yeast hyphae and yeast output. So if you scrape it off you wont remove all the yeast, esp the live spores which tend to sink, you will just remove a lot of it's growth.
To inhibit yeast growth it really helps to ferment anaerobically.
Quote:
Hm, to avoid misunderstandings... The fermentation I described works with lactobacillus, not with yeast.
But it would be interesting to know, if using yeast would produce comparable results.
Why do you think this? Your process should have yeast and LAB, they are kind of hand and hand in these type of anaerobic fermentations (along with other microbes in you liquid). Have you looked at your brew under a microscope? A few scientists I know have made very similar BIM brews and they had yeast in all cases.
Are you using an anaerobic process? If not I would suggest you do. This will also limit the growth of the white yeast hyphae as yeast grows in "head space" (space between liquid and cap) full of oxygen. I like to get a cheap ($10.00) bottle of compressed Co2 for wine bottles called "wine Keeper". It's used to keep wine fresh by putting a layer of Co2 over the wine. You can use the same idea, and IMVHO you should for small scale, or just fill the jars all the way up. I just squirt a little Co2 into the head space through the hole in the cap for the fermentation "double air lock"[1].
Here is a pic of my fermentation jug with double air lock and a fish tank heater hot glued into the side. The air-lock is used to let the Co2 out (produced by fermentation by LAB and yeast) and prevent o2 from entering, its used to keep things anaerobic. The bung was 75 cents, the air lock was 1.50 dollars, the fish tank heater was 10.00 dollars. You can get all these items at your local beer/wine brew shop, or online and fish tank heater at WallyWorld. You could adapt this by putting a rubber bung into a round hole in your lid and you put the fermentation lock into the bung. Then you can put the jars in a hot place or TiT for fermentation (85-110F is best but 75-85 will work, slowly).
And you may want to add a carbon source like organic blk strap molasses at like 0.025-0.1% per volume of water. This molasses feeds the LAB and yeast and speeds fermentation. Any left over molasses in grain will also feed the fungals we are cultivating
Oh and I think you mentioned it but you should use temps around 85-110F, hotter speeds fermentation and ph drop.
You should also prolly wait a few days to a week after the initial ph drop below 4 to allow the LAB and yeast to stabilize. You don't want to use it if the Ph is above 4, but below a Ph of 3.6 is best for horticulture and below 3.4 is required for human/pet ingestion. (see my next post for an explanation)
Thanks for the great idea!!! If you have any Q's feel free to PM me or ask me here.
A buddie of mine just fermented his own rejuvalac(sp?) and has a real nice microscope he used to examine it. I tell him about your experiment, he's really interested in the topics I am and he's really into growing editable mushrooms. He said his liquid had a lot of yeast and LAB.
Oh yea, google for "Vinny pinto" and "EM" (Effective Microorganisms", also "IMO" (Indigenous Microorganisms), "BIM" (Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms)...and PM me and Ill hook you up a bit more
HTH!!!
[1] fermentation double-air lock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_lock
Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 03:36 AM)
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785330 - 08/17/08 03:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi P.MenaceS
How ya doing?
Quote:
As I see it raising the Ph would only "help" reduce the risk of contams.
Try raising the Ph, or even perhaps adding a small amount of bleach to the water for the initial soak to attempt to kill off a bit of the endospores present before any of the time consuming, boil, rinse, drain, jar, refill steps.
In terms of anaerobic fermentation (as is happening here) you actually want a ph lower than 4 and lower than 3.6 is best for mushroom culture and horticulture (below 3.4 for human/pet ingestion).
At this low Ph you have very few, if any, harmful microbes. Most all harmful microbes prefer a higher ph, especially in an anaerobic environment. And the LAB and yeast tend to out-compete harmful microbes when molasses is used with heat and an anaerobic environment.
EM, BIM, IMO, AEM, FPE, etc, etc needs to be below 3.6 or I wouldn't use it, the same goes for MycoAu's method.
Oh and if you add bleach you will kill any beneficial microbes which are present...
HTH !!
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785345 - 08/17/08 03:42 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
quickpick said: nice thread! It's a really great idea!!! Has anyone tried this with p.cubes? (forgive the Q if it's obvious)
not yet, but as soon as there is some myc at hand.
Quote:
That "whiteish film" is yeast hyphae and yeast output. So if you scrape it off you wont remove all the yeast, esp the live spores which tend to sink, you will just remove a lot of it's growth.
To inhibit yeast growth it really helps to ferment anaerobically. [...] Are you using an anaerobic process? If not I would suggest you do. This will also limit the growth of the white yeast hyphae as yeast grows in "head space" (space between liquid and cap) full of oxygen.
So I'm confused if yeast is okay or you want to get rid of it.
And is submerged in water anaerobic enough? Anyways wiht whit rice in water there virtually is no surface to scrape something away. Good to see this topic is kept alive.
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785361 - 08/17/08 03:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey again ,
It should take about 3-7 days for your Ph to drop below 4. If it takes longer than 2-3 weeks with the addition of a carbon source, heat and an anaerobic environment then there may be issues.
If you have a brix meter you may want your brix level to be around 4-8 (after the addition of organic blk strap molasses). For most basic BIM and IMO it's best to use a brix score of 8-9, but less maybe better in this case.
Oh, and it's best to use distilled water if your trying to limit the different types of microbes present.
HTH
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785364 - 08/17/08 03:53 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wh... Who said add bleach? I was suggesting it only in the inital soak, to yes "kill off unwanted contaminations" previous to this experiment where you will be selectively Contaminating... 7.0Ph is fine, for your everyday run of the mill substrate... and the mushroom mycelium's metabolites will eventually lower the substrate Ph anyway, yet i always see my shit contam at the 3.8-4.2 mark, so... I think your wrong about that, as far as "normal" substrate goes.
Or thats how i see it anyway
I dont think i will ever understand whats happening here, and really, i dont want too, unless i want to make beer or some shit, this has no place in my mycological experience's... The Ph of my agar is 6.8-7.0 LC's 7.0 most of my substrate 6.2-7.0 I think i will stick with neutral, and not have any smelly ass, selectively contaminated shit sitting around in my house, Unless its Clavicepts;)
-------------------- http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Cubensae/Psilocybe_cubensis_Menace roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
#8785394 - 08/17/08 04:23 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi P.Menace,
I'm not trying to upset you, I'm only posting how it works. I think we are talking about apples and oranges:
What is being done here is anaerobic fermentation of grain by LAB, yeast and other BIM. The liquid will have a low Ph by the nature of the fermentation process and it needs to be below a Ph of 4 to preclude harmful microbes growing in the liquid during fermentation and after. It's not about the Ph of the grain after fermentation, it's about the Ph of the liquid. But like Mycelio said, it takes his mushrooms a few days to acclimate to a low Ph. (though I haven't grown any mushrooms this way...yet! )
The idea here is the substrate is full of LAB and yeast so they out-compete harmful microbes and the low Ph is ok, even in the inoculation substrate (ex. grain).
Quote:
I was suggesting it only in the inital soak, to yes "kill off unwanted contaminations" previous to this experiment where you will be selectively Contaminating...
Thats a good idea but we need the "endogenous" enzymes and microbes. Basically that means the native microbes and enzymes on the substance, referring to those on inside of the grain in this case. The the LAB and other IMO come from mostly from the inside but also the outside of the grain, this is what facilitates the fermentation.
Do I help make things any more clear? I hope so, don't give up, there is a learning curve but once you do it once your all good. And imagine the benefits, not to mention that mushroom will prolly grow better with BIM as many microbes are symbiont or at least have a synergistic relationship to fungals, especially bacterias.
HTH
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785396 - 08/17/08 04:24 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey spacel0rd,
How are ya?
Quote:
So I'm confused if yeast is okay or you want to get rid of it.
Well Mycelio has had sucess and he/she also had yeast (I'd bet) so yea, yeast should be fine, it's natural. But, note that Mycelio removed the yeast hyphae and output at the top, this is very wise. It limits the yeast in the liquid, if you don't remove the white stuff it can take over....like the BLOOB!!! lol
Quote:
And is submerged in water anaerobic enough? Anyways wiht whit rice in water there virtually is no surface to scrape something away. Good to see this topic is kept alive.
No that is not anaerobic enough, it should to be very anaerobic. Are you using white rice? I would use something with nutrients like organic brown rice or organic grain 'berries' (wheat, rye, etc).
HTH
Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 04:25 AM)
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8785404 - 08/17/08 04:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey Springs!
Whats up? Thought I would toss my 2cents in this thread. Nice to see you here. You get my PM at the other place?
Quote:
It may help to start a culture on a plate with a lower ph so the mycelium is used to the low ph environ.
Thats a great idea. Soon come I'll try to out!
later bro,
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8785428 - 08/17/08 04:45 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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smell...
A good fermented smell should be a little sweet/sour and a little pickle like with a bit of earthiness (if molasses is added). It should not smell bad or rancid.
HTH
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thatsstupid
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785486 - 08/17/08 05:17 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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nice quad post.
-------------------- "It's not enough. I need more. Nothing seems to satisfy. I don't want it. I just need it. To feel, to breathe, to know I'm alive."-Tool- "And who are you and how can I try? Here inside I like metal Don't you?"- Nine Inch Nails GOD IS DEAD!! AND NOOO ONEE CARES! IF THERE IS A HELL! I'LL SEEEE YOUUU THERE!!
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8785499 - 08/17/08 05:30 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Another option: "Bokashi"
It's a Japanese term which loosely means a BIM fermented and dried substance, usually plant matter. You can use BIM, or preferably EM which you ferment into AEM which you then use (or BIM) to create "bokashi".
Today Bokashi is made with wheat bran and AEM with blk strap molasses. The resulting bokshi has a ph of about 5 and is LOADED with LAB, yeast (brewers "ale" yeast) and has some PnSB too. If made correctly (eg. very anaerobically) it is free of contaminates and would prolly make a great inoc sub and even as part of a bulk substrate or casing mix.
I ferment my own bokashi and when it's done it reeks like pickles and sweet/sours, lol. When done it has a great moisture content of around 40% I would guess. This would serve as an excellent inoc sub IMVHO and it's ph is 5ish It maybe wise to add it to bulk sub and maybe casing too, just for the possible symbiont and/or synergistic relationship between the microbes and fungals being cultivated.
You can dry out boakshi and it's still good, when moistened the microbes once again become active, but an anaerobic environment is best.
You can purchase bokash form ERMO-USA or SCD-World. For this purpose the EMRO-USA would be a better choice as it's has less types of microbes. Or just buy some "EM-1", the EM "mother culture" from which you can make a 1st stage frement into AEM, waking up the microbes and extending the use of the EM.
Once you ferment AEM you use that to make a basic boakshi with like 1:1:20 (AEM:molasses:water) [I'll have to double check my figures] and mix that into the what bran until moist and until it holds a ball shape when squeezed and released, yet not too dense(like soil). The water needs to be about 110F,yup, hot! The addition of 5 tsp of salt[1] per 5 gallons of water is wise, as is some type of mineral powder like B.caly (at health food store),or "EM-clay". Once everything is mixed and the what bran is really hot put it in a thick black "lawn and leaf" bag (2-3mil) and twist hell out of the bag...you want to remove as much air as you can, if you have a vacuum sealer that would be great! After the what bran ferments for 3-6 weeks it's ready for use as long as it smells sweet/sour and like pickles.
However, bokashi can be make with any number of plant based items, leafs, grain, etc. It should work OK with grain 'berries', WBS, etc but that means you may need a vacuum sealer to remove the air from between the larger 'berries', seeds, etc. If so a spawn bag would work perfectly (thought any container should work):
- Fill with moist un-fermented bokshi (from grain 'berries', WBS, BRF, what bran, etc)
- Cover the 'breather' holes and injector ports with a layer of alc wipe and then tape on outside
- Vacuum seal and wait a few weeks
- Once fermented remove tape, clean the injector port and 'breather' holes
- Inject away! Or open the bag do a g2g or a wedge, etc, etc.
- Cross fingers!
...OR...
- Order Bokashi from EMRO-USA
- Moisten
- Place in container
- Inoc, g2g, etc
- Cross fingers, lol
[1] Celtic sea salt or Himalayan fossilized sea salt (over 250 million years old!)
HTH
Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 05:31 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8785565 - 08/17/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey Quickpick,
I agree to most of your comments, only a few things:
Regarding yeast... Sure I can't rule out some yeast growing in there, but the main work is done by LAB as the sour smell and the acidity by lactic acid tells me. If more yeast grows on top, I prefer to remove it before an alcoholic smell appears. I do not want too much alcohol to be in there, because it would later prevent the mycelium from growing or require an additional heating step. Usually the yeast layer does not return after removing it once.
(edit: I see we agree on this point. )
In my experience you only need to cover the grain with tap water to start an anaerobic fermentation. Also adding molasses is not required. You surely need molasses for starting EM cultures on plant material, but by using grain, we already have more sugars and carbohydrates than the LAB can process. Adding too much food would raise the contamination risk after fermentation.
@spacel0rd Just add more water.
Quote:
- Fill jars half with the cooked grain. - Add water until filled up to three quarters.
For the cubes... Tried some nine days ago and it won't eat the grain. It seems to be disgusted and only grows, where it does not touch the fermented stuff. Same effect with Agaricus bisporus mycelium. Adding fermented straw should help.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (08/17/08 06:41 AM)
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8785600 - 08/17/08 06:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey Mycelio,
How are you?
Quote:
Regarding yeast... Sure I can't rule out some yeast growing in there, but the main work is done by LAB as the sour smell and the acidity by lactic acid tells me. If more yeast grows on top, I prefer to remove it before an alcoholic smell appears. I do not want too much alcohol to be in there, because it would later prevent the mycelium from growing or require an additional heating step. Usually the yeast layer does not return after removing it once.
Yes I agree about it not returning very fast after it's removed, but trust me, the yeast is still there. A more anaerobic process is better for slowing yeast and encouraging more LAB.
Oh, and I think you are giving LAB too much importance in this case, yeast to little and likewise, too little importance to other BIM. LAB is very important yes, but so is yeast, etc. And the enzymes emitted by the microbes are the things doing a lot of the work.
Quote:
In my experience you only need to cover the grain with tap water to start an anaerobic fermentation.
You must have good water and very soft water, most ppl have chlorine and the dreaded chloramines to deal with. You can use tap water but you should def be using a more anaerobic process, that is what you are really doing, using anaerobic fermentation.
Any o2 in the head space will add o2 to the water and slow the fermentation. It's best to use an anaerobic process to encourage fermentation and inhibit yeast growth of hyphae and output (eg. biomass). Oh, and you may want to use distilled water, it's a much better microbial base than tap.
Quote:
Also adding molasses is not required. You surely need molasses for starting EM cultures on plant material, but by using grain, we already have more sugars and carbohydrates than the LAB can process. Adding too much food would raise the contamination risk after fermentation.
Yea, molasses isn't required but it's prolly a good idea, especially considering you do not have a carbon food source (eg. carbohydrate from sugar like molasses) and they LAB, yeast, etc, love carbon. The molasses encourages the LAB and yeast, it's a food source for them. A few weeks or a few months is too long for fermentation IMO, the microbes will run out of food. Fermentation and Ph drop should only take 3-7 days under optimal conditions and 2-3 weeks under less than optimal conditions.
The sugars in the grain are not nearly as immediately available as those from molasses. You are fermenting the grain and feeding the microbes with molasses this way. Faster LAB and yeast growth so they can out-compete other microbes faster. Another option is adding milk, ala LAB IMO culture teks.
Oh and the BIM (many microbes are at work here not just LAB) will either use up the extra molasses of the fungals should. But by adding 0.025-0.05% molasses to water you will not be adding 'too' much. (IMVHO)
Thanks again and later
Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 07:00 AM)
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P.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8786839 - 08/17/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not that I think i really need to know, but what does "LAB and BIM" stand for?
-------------------- http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Cubensae/Psilocybe_cubensis_Menace roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
#8786909 - 08/17/08 01:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi bro
LAB = lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus)
BIM = Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms (in this case)
have a great day!
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P.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8786934 - 08/17/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for clearing that up:D i couldnt seem to locate the acronyms...
-------------------- http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Cubensae/Psilocybe_cubensis_Menace roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8787351 - 08/17/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey Quickpick,
Quote:
Yea, molasses isn't required but it's prolly a good idea, especially considering you do not have a carbon food source (eg. carbohydrate from sugar like molasses) and they LAB, yeast, etc, love carbon. The molasses encourages the LAB and yeast, it's a food source for them. A few weeks or a few months is too long for fermentation IMO, the microbes will run out of food. Fermentation and Ph drop should only take 3-7 days under optimal conditions and 2-3 weeks under less than optimal conditions.
At room temperature grain fermentation and PH drop will start within 2 or 3 days. I recommend to let it run for a couple of days so the bacteria will be well established. The whole process stops after ca. 2 weeks because of the PH, not for food reasons, there's no lack of carbon at all. The proof is that you can add CaCO3 to raise the PH. Then the fermentation continues vigorously.
Quote:
The sugars in the grain are not nearly as immediately available as those from molasses. You are fermenting the grain and feeding the microbes with molasses this way. Faster LAB and yeast growth so they can out-compete other microbes faster. Another option is adding milk, ala LAB IMO culture teks.
Perhaps, but I don't think the process needs to be improved.
Quote:
Oh and the BIM (many microbes are at work here not just LAB) will either use up the extra molasses of the fungals should. But by adding 0.025-0.05% molasses to water you will not be adding 'too' much. (IMVHO)
I agree that a low concentration of molasses would not do any harm, but I still do not see a reason for adding it.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy about your input and knowledge, but please run a test or a comparison, before you tell people how to do it better.
Did you ever try inoculating bokashi fermented material?
Greetings, Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8788560 - 08/17/08 09:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi Mycelio,
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I am happy about your input and knowledge, but please run a test or a comparison, before you tell people how to do it better.
IMO it's not really about running a test run, as that doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand. Fermenting via LAB and yeast can be done as you've described, and I'm not saying it can't. And I've said many times that I'm very impressed with what you've done. But that said, and in no disrespect, I believe the process can be improved. It's not that you did anything wrong, it's just that things are not optimal in my personal opinion.
If you increase temperature, increase anaerobic environment and add immediately available food for the microbes you should get a better fermentation, that's just how fermentation works; I'm not just making this stuff up, I promise.
Try it: Do a side by side with how I describe and how your doing it, see what you like better.
One idea I like is getting more variation and higher counts of microbes in the fluid and into/onto the substrate. More microbes offer a better chance of some of them being symbiont or having a synergistic relationship with the cultivated fungals. In Nature many fungals have "helper" bacteria and other fungals which may assist the cultivated fungals in breaking down organic matter (via enzymes) so the fungals can feed.
For example: LAB is often found in dung breaking it down, and are p.cubes; maybe LAB is a helper to p.cubes. More research is needed.
To get more variation and higher counts of microbes, especially LAB and yeast, a higher temp is very helpful (less so is the addition of a carbohydrate and removal of o2). The temp of 80F is about as low as I would want to go. If you do nothing else then I would suggest you put your jars in a warm place (80-100F), this should speed Ph drop and produce a stronger fermentation. I try to keep my water at 85-90F because this is in the ideal range for fermentation.
Quote:
After a week or two, the PH fell from 7 to 4 and the grain is ready.
The initial Ph drop from X to 4 would generally take 2-5 days with optimal conditions. And then continue to ferment once the Ph has stabilized.
Here's a quote from a buddy, I stole it but I don't he'll mind: (he's trying to culture wild LAB and yeast, not ferment the millet)
Quote:
Quote:
Person XXX said: a few days ago I filled a jar half-full with millet then 3/4 full with water
I rinsed the next day and added more fresh water up to 3/4 full then put a lid on and put the jar up in the cupboard [where it's warm] for a few days in 3 days the pH dropped from 7 to 3.9
I looked at it under the microscope and there was a whole lot of bacterial activity also there was some white stuff forming on top so I took a piece of that and looked at it under the scope and it showed some very healthy yeast growth so the millet looks like a good source of some wild lactobacilli and yeast stay tuned for more random experiments
Quote:
At room temperature grain fermentation and PH drop will start within 2 or 3 days.
Yes I agree but what do you consider room temp? And what temp is the water? Hot water speeds the growth of the microbes, the same thing happens in ACT with warmer water (as long as DO is ok). And it's important to point out this is only the initial Ph drop, Ph should continue dropping until it stabilizes due to optimal Ph.
I thought in your fist post you said you let it ferment for a few weeks? The initial Ph drop should happen in first few days.
Quote:
I recommend to let it run for a couple of days so the bacteria will be well established.
The whole fermentation process to, and past the point of Ph stability (around <3.5 to 4) usually takes 3-14 days depending upon circumstances and methods. After the initial Ph drop fermentation should continue until the food is used up or conditions are not ideal.
Here's a link I think is on-topic: "Using the ordinary to cultivate the mysterious power of beneficial indigenous microorganisms"
Quote:
The whole process stops after ca. 2 weeks because of the PH, not for food reasons,
No not really. Fermentation should continue for as long as there is food and good conditions. BIMs with high brix content (>11) can ferment for many months after Ph stabilization (though Ph does fluctuate a little). So called "SAEM" is sometimes fermented for a year or more.
When the ideal Ph is reached fermentation generally continues as long as there is food, it's just that the Ph won't drop any further. This is so called Ph stabilization and is good. I allow my basic and quick ferments to continue for a week or so past Ph stabilization. Heck, when fermenting AEM I've seen it continue to ferment for weeks and weeks after Ph stabilization at a 1:1:20 ratio of EM:molasses:water.
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there's no lack of carbon at all.
The carbon I'm referring to is a kind which is immediately available to many microbes (ex. LAB) as a source of energy: carbohydrates (as sugar). The LAB and yeast can feed upon the grain but they generally need their enzymes to beak it down first and that's not too efficient. The enzyme action waiting period may slow the BIM's very important edge to out competent other microbes.
If you use an immediately available source of carbohydrate like organic blk strap molasses your fermentation should be stronger and you should have greater counts of microbes. Also, by giving the BIM (LAB and yeast in this case) food they love you will help them out compete other, less desirable microbes who don't prefer blk strap molasses. Organic black strap molasses isn't required but I would suggest it's addition.
Currently in your method the grain is the microbial food, along with light, other microbes, etc. And the grain, along with the brew is being fermented by the nature of the processes of BIM's enzyme breakdown of the grain so it can be used as food for the BIM.
But, you may want to allow the BIM to ferment the brew (and the grain) by using molasses as the microbial food. This way you should get a better fermentation of the grain and more infusion of BIM.
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The proof is that you can add CaCO3 to raise the PH. Then the fermentation continues vigorously.
Yes that's a good point. But what that shows is the microbes wish to return to their ideal Ph of <3.5 to <4 (or about). Once they drop the Ph to that level they should continue to ferment but they won't drop the Ph any further in most cases.
Oh, and be careful with use of chemicals around microbes. For example: Anything over 3% phosphoric acid (to total water) will kill the BIM. At 3% p.acid acts as a stabilizer for hydrolyzed fish which means the BIM and enzymes are dormant or inactivated, helps prevent purification of the fish. Once the hydrolyzed fish is diluted into water the enzymes could become active again.
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quickpick said: The sugars in the grain are not nearly as immediately available as those from molasses. You are fermenting the grain and feeding the microbes with molasses this way. Faster LAB and yeast growth so they can out-compete other microbes faster. Another option is adding milk, ala LAB IMO culture teks.
Perhaps, but I don't think the process needs to be improved.
Cool If your happy and getting good results then I'm stoked for ya. But IMO, there is room for improvement, and I'm sure my ideas have flaws...
I haven't put enough thought into it yet...
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Did you ever try inoculating bokashi fermented material?
Not yet. But I have some in my back room I've been fermenting for a few months, Ph should be about 5. And I have some SCD-World EM Plus (extra PnsB) and I'm gonna extended it into a AEM which I'll then turn into a "FPE" (Fermented Plant Extract) by adding organic baby oatmeal crystals and fermenting further. Oatmeal is a fungal activator in brews like ACT and you can 'activate' vermicompost with oatmeal for a few weeks to get a nice count of fugals, hyphae, etc. I'll use the FPE (which has LAB, PnSB, yeast, etc) to ferment rye berries and finch seed (independently).
And I'm getting the 'Quezon' as my freebie so I'll use that to experiment with!
Things I'm gonna test this month: (2cc per quart jar)- Inoc into fresh wheat bran bokashi
- Inoc into FPE fermented rye
- Inoc into FPE fermented finch
- Inoc into AEM fermented rye
- Inoc into AEM fermented finch seed
Thanks for the inspiration and idea to mix fermentation and fungal cultivation! Thoughts???
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8788574 - 08/17/08 09:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey Mycelio,
I was thinking about making the environment more anaerobic and while that is preferred for fermentation it would kill or set dormant many obligate aerobes and lightly facultative aerobes. And because the inoc will have air it's probibally good to have aerobic microbes (even if only facultative). I still think keeping the water 80-95F is a good idea and adding 0.025% (or less) organic black strap molasseses maybe a good idea too.
I attached a PDF which is kinda basic but I thought is was useful for it's pics and good info about microbes, LAB, etc. I hope you find it useful
"13 Steps in industrial Fermentation"
thanks for a good discussion and thought!
Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 09:32 PM)
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8788587 - 08/17/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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humm.
how do I attach a PDF?
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P.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8788610 - 08/17/08 09:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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click the "id like to attach files or Preview this post"
-------------------- http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Cubensae/Psilocybe_cubensis_Menace roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.
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Springs
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
#8806446 - 08/21/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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hey Mycelio, can you give us a break down for your straw fermentation techniques.
What amounts of grain and straw have you fermented at one time, in one vessel?
What do you think about using fermented grains to jump start unfermented grains, like a grain to grain, and a portion of liquid aswell perhaps. Much like using a portion of sour dough starter.
You mentioned trying to ferment a few different materials in a past post, what were your results? Do you think lactobacillus could be used with wood dust or chips? [url=http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:fTYEw74Ao-sJ:www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2005/fpl_2005_yang001.pdf+lactobacillus+wood+mold+inhibition&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca]Patent describing LAB to inhibit mold on wood[/url]
Peace
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8807082 - 08/21/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi Springs
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can you give us a break down for your straw fermentation techniques.
My method for fermenting straw is almost identical to grain. Just have it covered by water and wait. It should start creating bubbles after ca. two days and go on for a week or two until the sugars are used up. Final PH is around 6. You don't need to wait for the fermentation to end by itself, you can use fermented straw four or five days after starting. Press out as much water as possible with bare hands and inoculate. By now I only fermented straw pellets. Ordinary straw might ferment slower. When the pellets are fermenting, the whole stuff gets foamy and rises, so be sure to leave enough space and move it daily, so the straw can sink under water again.
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What amounts of grain and straw have you fermented at one time, in one vessel?
I do grain in small jars, like 500 ml or smaller. When fermenting more, I use several jars. For straw I use a 10 l plastic bucket, but never filled it more than half.
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What do you think about using fermented grains to jump start unfermented grains, like a grain to grain, and a portion of liquid aswell perhaps. Much like using a portion of sour dough starter.
I tried jump starting the next fermentation by adding a sample from the current one. Works fine, but only saves about one day. A few times I kind of replaced the fermented stuff by fresh material by using all of the fermentation liquid. Almost all of these tries failed quickly and produced a strong vinegar smell. So I recommend to use a tiny amount, like one spoon.
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You mentioned trying to ferment a few different materials in a past post, what were your results? Do you think lactobacillus could be used with wood dust or chips?
Alfalfa hay and spent coffee grounds ferment well together with straw, but fungal spores didn't get eliminated, so I had a wild coprinus growing afterwards. Sometimes also trichoderma, for example when mixing the fermented material with sterile grain spawn. Wood chips do not ferment well under water. There is too little sugars and nitrogen. I tried adding fresh flour including bran, but only got slimy and stinky results. It's possible to mix wood chips with bran and ferment in a pile, which must be big enough to heat up and you have to turn the pile once or twice a week, so it gets enough fresh air. That's the only way I know of. Some sources also recommend urea as additive.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (08/21/08 06:09 PM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8807804 - 08/21/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi Quickpick,
regarding temperatures: In an earlier post I wrote about higher temps like 35°C (95F) speeding up the process. This also matches the optimum temperature for sourdough. From what I read LAB shall have their upper limit around 45°C (113F).
For the PH drop I think there is a misunderstanding between us. I measured the PH after two weeks, I didn't mean to say it dropped after two weeks. But perhaps I was wrong saying fermentation stops at some point, though I am sure the LAB produce lactic acid until it gets too much, even for them. Then the fermentation slows down until you raise the PH or until other microbes take over.
I also thought about a possible symbiosis between LAB and mycelium, but as fermented grain gets colonized slowly, while several species or mushrooms can't grow into it at all, it seems LAB is just food, trying to fight the mycelium. Helper bacteria may be more important for mycorrhizal species.
Please keep us updated about your experiments! Do you plan to inoculate from a liquid culture? Spores might not germinate easily on fermented material.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8809379 - 08/22/08 02:41 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Carsten, you mentioned one needs more spawn than with sterile, non-fermented substrate. Can you give examples like: for a 1-2 pint jar with *** grains xxx works, for a 10 liter bucket of straw xxx spawn works. And also how much does that depend on the species one intends to grow? I guess a few ml of LC wouldn't work on fermented grain jars, like they would on "normal" ones?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8809683 - 08/22/08 06:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Spacel0rd,
I think 1 pint is 568 ml. The jars I used so far were a bit smaller than 1 pint, filled half with fermented grain and inoculated either by mushroom stems or by one or two tablespoons of colonized straw/wood chips/sterile grain spawn by putting one piece on top. It seems to be better to have a large chunk of mycelium with contact to air than using tiny fragments. Once fully colonized you can do G2G by mixing some grain with freshly fermented material. With fermented straw it is easier for the mycelium. It will start from small pieces and can be mixed into the straw. Spawn at least with 5% inoculum. Can't say how it would work with LCs. In fermented grain it might die.
And yes, it depends on the species. I had no success with Agaricus bisporus, but Pleurotus eryngii and ostreatus do well.
BTW: From my tries with cube mycelium (sterile grain spawn on fermented wbs) one is finally growing into the grain, though it took two weeks to adapt. The other one had been covered with fermented straw a few days ago. Now it starts colonizing straw and grain.
Carsten
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8811093 - 08/22/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you want quick LC-type inoculations for your fermented versions, try doing slurry inoculations. Take a BRF cake of whatever species you want, dump it in a cleaned (preferably sterilized) blender, blend it for a few seconds with just enough water to get a flowing slurry and dump it into the jars you want to inoculate. There's enough growth there to reduce the chances of contams.
And yes, doing the whole process in a sterile manner will definitely improve the results.
All of this (slurry inoculations) information has been discussed here and elsewhere. Just do a search for more information.
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8818162 - 08/23/08 10:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Mycelio,
How ya doing?
Yea, I didn't notice your info on temp, thanks. Yup, LAB and many microbes can go up to around 110F. Too far over that is the territory of "extremophiles" like "archaea", etc and some harmful microbes too. AEM is fermented at 110F in the first few hours and then lowered but I keep it at about 90-100F
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though I am sure the LAB produce lactic acid until it gets too much, even for them. Then the fermentation slows down until you raise the PH or until other microbes take over.
Yup.
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I also thought about a possible symbiosis between LAB and mycelium, but as fermented grain gets colonized slowly, while several species or mushrooms can't grow into it at all, it seems LAB is just food, trying to fight the mycelium. Helper bacteria may be more important for mycorrhizal species.
Do you know what types of mushrooms 'eat' LAB as food? Does p.cube? And do you know how they eat them? Can you give me some links so I can do more reading?
Did I say symbiosis? I meant synergistic relationship, oops, sorry. What I mean by helper is that LAB and yeast (etc) can feed upon the proteins and carbs in the grain or WBS, etc. So by fermenting they are eating the grain in a fashion, which could be beneficial for mycelium in spawn sub. The mycelium and fungals rely a lot upon proteins, carbs, macro ferts N and K, etc, etc. The mycelium excretes enzymes which break down the organic matter into usable chemical forms which can then be utilized by the mycelium. (please correct me if I'm wrong, thanks)
So I hypothesize that LAB, yeast and other BIM (esp nitrogen[N] and potassium[K] fixating bacteria, ala 'nutrient cycle') will offer chemicals via their own action which the mushroom mycelium can utilize.
Most importantly to me is that in Nature you would never find anything by itself, and I feel it's important to add microbes to spawn and bulk sub, along with casing too. But it's important to start the spores/LC with microbes so they develop a synergistic relationship they have in Nature...
And LAB loves to break down poo, as does PnSB, etc. So they should be great to add to H.poo bulk sub. I'm testing it this run, pasturing field collect H.poo then activating it (see below) and adding about 10% hort grade verm which should required the addition of water so at that point I'll add the AEM (microbes) and FPE
Another brew I am going to test on bulk sub and casing (not spawn sub) is ACT, it offers the full Soil Food Web, microbial loop and nutrient cycle. In it will be much LAB and also N and P fixing and probably K fixing fungals and bacteria.
EM/AEM offers "zymogenic balance"[1] and nutrient cycle (especially N cycling), there shouldn't be a real Soil Food Web because there are not any protozoa, etc to eat the bacteria (which often releases N and other chemicals held by the bacteria).
LAB and yeast are 'zymogenic' microbes.
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Please keep us updated about your experiments!
Definitely. BTW, I really like your attitude! I am going to write a new thread soon in Advanced about activating H.poo, vermicompost, compost, etc...after pasteurization...and other fun stuff.
But I don't want to hijack your excellent thread so I'll start a new one for AEM and FPE stuff. For example, I'm fermenting an FPE with baby oatmeal powder, hydrolyzed fish, kelp, light malt extract and corn sugar (dextrose) to be used when fermenting grain or WBS and bulk sub and casing too.
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Do you plan to inoculate from a liquid culture? Spores might not germinate easily on fermented material.
Yea, last week I ordered a magnetic stirrer (6"x6" plate) with some magnetic rods too (one with bands, they get loud but work well). I also ordered organic plain light malt extract powder and organic corn sugar powder (dextrose source). This is my first time with LC and p.cube so I'm looking forward to it
THanks
Oh yea, what are your thoughts about moisture content in grain fermented for 2 weeks? Every tek I've read (for p.cube) warns of over soaking which leads to too much moisture or bursting of grain. I am planing of fermenting with very active AEM, microbial wise, for only 24 hours. But I think this should be sufficient as I'll also add Yucca surfactant and that should give enough time for microbes to 'colonize' the grain to prevent harmful microbes, while not offering a full fermentation it should allow skipping of the PC and will infuse beneficial microbes into the grain, etc.
P.S. I'm growing Ecuadorians and I'm gonna clone a nice mushroom in LC and then use that to grow with a single clone souce in bulk sub (H.poo) with casing (peat based) and do a side by side grow using microbes/fermentation vs PCing (and super sterile bulk sub and casing). All variables will be the same (as much as possible) and only difference will be use microbes or no microbes. All work will be done in sterile room for tighter control and less variables: Tomorrow I am building a sterile room (out of PVC and 2mil clear plastic) with a Lamar Flow Hood (soon to be a full table with UV-germicidal) and an antechamber. The Lamar Flow will create a nice positive pressure into the antechamber and out-to the surrounding room.
Thanks and any thoughts you have are very welcome!
[1] Zymogenic microbes, Zymogenic Soil/balance, and Zymology info:
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The soils containing zymogenic organisms such as Lactic acid bacteria and yeast are called zymogenic soils. When raw organic matter with high nitrogen contents is applied, the soil develops an aromatic smell, the population of fermenting fungi such as Aspergillus and Rhizopus increases. These soils have very good physical characteristics with a high water holding capacity.
(b) "Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms" by Dr. Higa, see section " 4.3.3 Zymogenic Soils" http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html#21
(c) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_(biochemistry)#Enzymology_and_Zymology
Edited by quickpick (08/24/08 12:37 AM)
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8818621 - 08/24/08 01:37 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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First of all: thanks for sharing this wealth of info quickpick
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quickpick said: Most importantly to me is that in Nature you would never find anything by itself, and I feel it's important to add microbes to spawn and bulk sub, along with casing too. But it's important to start the spores/LC with microbes so they develop a synergistic relationship they have in Nature...
What microbes are you planning to use? Any idea which ones let the spores germinate? Keep us with the results of your LC experiment. And the others as well.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8818891 - 08/24/08 04:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi Quickpick,
Quote:
Yup, LAB and many microbes can go up to around 110F. Too far over that is the territory of "extremophiles" like "archaea", etc and some harmful microbes too. AEM is fermented at 110F in the first few hours and then lowered but I keep it at about 90-100F
Though the thermophiles are interesting too. You may want to read something about aerobic composting for Agaricus bisporus, especially phase 2.
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Do you know what types of mushrooms 'eat' LAB as food? Does p.cube? And do you know how they eat them? Can you give me some links so I can do more reading?
Perhaps all fungi are able to digest microbes. Would make sense, as microbes are everywhere. For species, which mainly digest cellulose and lignin, microbes should be an important source of nitrogen. Other species, which grow on manure are known to feed on microbes. The mycelium grows hyphae into bacterial colonies and excretes lots of enzymes until the cells break up and molecules can be consumed by the mycelium. I once found a website showing microscope images of Pleurotus ostreatus trapping nematodes and entering bacterial colonies, but I am sorry, right now I can't find it any more.
The benefit I see here is that microbes use up easily available carbohydrates, build up protein, fat, etc. and suppress competitor funghi like mold species. When our mycelium then feeds on the bacteria, I'd say less chemical conversion is required to build up its own tissue from the food.
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Oh yea, what are your thoughts about moisture content in grain fermented for 2 weeks? Every tek I've read (for p.cube) warns of over soaking which leads to too much moisture or bursting of grain. I am planing of fermenting with very active AEM, microbial wise, for only 24 hours. But I think this should be sufficient as I'll also add Yucca surfactant and that should give enough time for microbes to 'colonize' the grain to prevent harmful microbes, while not offering a full fermentation it should allow skipping of the PC and will infuse beneficial microbes into the grain, etc.
I have never seen kernels burst on soaking, only when simmered or boiled for too long. After fermentation the moisture content appears optimal to me, but too much free water between the kernels should be avoided.
I think it would be a good idea to start separate thread for substrates and LCs with active microbes. This discussion is interesting, but leads us away from the original subject, the use of fermented grain.
Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8819508 - 08/24/08 10:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey again bro,
Hope your having a great day!
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Though the thermophiles are interesting too. You may want to read something about aerobic composting for Agaricus bisporus, especially phase 2.
Yes I agree. But I haven't used aerobic thermetic composting in years, I switched anaerobic, non-thermetic composting a while back. It's referred to as "bokashi composting" (uses EM), tons of microbes and much more nutrients left then thermetic composting and it only takes about 2 months for degradation into humus. And you can compost meat, fish, dairy, etc! Once I have more bokashi compost I'm gonna try that as a bulk sub
One thing I like about bokashi composting is it doesn't hurt my back, I'm really sick of turning 3 cu ft piles.
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Perhaps all fungi are able to digest microbes. Would make sense, as microbes are everywhere. For species, which mainly digest cellulose and lignin, microbes should be an important source of nitrogen. Other species, which grow on manure are known to feed on microbes. The mycelium grows hyphae into bacterial colonies and excretes lots of enzymes until the cells break up and molecules can be consumed by the mycelium. I once found a website showing microscope images of Pleurotus ostreatus trapping nematodes and entering bacterial colonies, but I am sorry, right now I can't find it any more.
Thanks for the info! Very interesting! I'll have to look more into it, neat stuff, thanks. (note: I think in my last post I said mycelium which I meant hyphae )
AM (arbuscular mycorrhizaes) are also known to trap nematodes with their hyphae, not for consumption but to protect their host plant's roots. I have a good book with some really nice electron microscope images of this, neat pic!
A neat thing to think about is adding dead bacteria to spawn sub, bulk sub, etc. I have isolated and cultured wild PnSB. THen I stopped feeding them and after they all die I am going to screen them out...In Japan you can buy tons of dry PnSB, it's used as fish food over there! (PnSB: 'Purple non-sulfur bacteria' are a N fixing bacteria and heart of EM)
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The benefit I see here is that microbes use up easily available carbohydrates, build up protein, fat, etc. and suppress competitor funghi like mold species.
Yes I would agree. And as bacteria will count in the millions per square inch of 'good' compost and H.poo (I assume), there is plenty of life in the microherd. Im curious which genus/family of bacteria are feed upon?
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When our mycelium then feeds on the bacteria, I'd say less chemical conversion is required to build up its own tissue from the food.
Quite possibly, if they are 'consumning' the bacteria (esp N and K fixing) like protozoa do then they would be also consuming the chemicals held by the bacteria too (e.g. N and K). But, the end results is the same as if they 'consume' H.poo (for example), the hyphae excretes the enzymes to break down the H.poo into base chemicals of N and K (for example), which the hyphae then utilize...the question I guess is which method required the least work? That is what is probably preferred by any particular mushroom which is able to 'consume' bacteria...the path of least resistance.
Another neat point is that when the mycelium 'consume' bacteria they should probably leave 'unconsumed' chemicals from the consumption of the bacteria (for example N). This is how it happens when protozoa eat bacteria, so I assume a similar situation when hyphae break down the bacteria for mycelium consumption. If so, then the surrounding hyphae and other microbes will benefit as they can consume the chemicals left over. (btw, what exactly are the steps? Do hyphae or mycelium do the 'consuming'?).
And when microherds are attacked (e.g. by the hyphae trying to trap/consume them) many genus and family will react by getting bigger (in quantity), which of course provides more food for the mycelium (e.g. "microbial loop")
Personally I think it's a good mix of both, as in Nature sometimes the mushroom will have more access to microherds and sometimes more access to organic matter...
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I have never seen kernels burst on soaking, only when simmered or boiled for too long. After fermentation the moisture content appears optimal to me, but too much free water between the kernels should be avoided.
Good point about the simmering. And grain (ie. rye berries) would probably be a 'safer' bet then WBS in terms of a lower moisture content, and more air space (via larger size then WBS), along with the ability to soak for few weeks, nice! I guess I can let it ferment for a few weeks instead of 24 hours in that case. Longer is definitely better, to a degree.
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I think it would be a good idea to start separate thread for substrates and LCs with active microbes. This discussion is interesting, but leads us away from the original subject, the use of fermented grain.
Yes I agree and I apologize if I strayed a bit off topic...
Thanks man! Good discussions!
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mbrown3391
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8819515 - 08/24/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Perhaps this experiment could be applied to improve sterility even with pressure cooked jars. One could add lactic acid purchased from a brewer's store to their culture. any thoughts?
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8819744 - 08/24/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey mbrown3391,
Yes I've been thinking about it. PC the jar, then use a syringe to inject BIM (or AEM or AEM/FPE mix) into the jars. Then incubate for a week or two (80-90F is fine), and then inject with LC (or maybe even spores), use g2g, etc. But it would be important to inject with very active BIM or AEM, with a very active herd because you wouldn't want to inject a lot, maybe 0.5-1cc to keep moisture down in PC'd jar (shaking would be helpful for distribution). This would offer the benefit of PCing off harmful (and some beneficial) microbes and then the injection of BIM or AEM will offer beneficial microbes, which also ferment (in a fashion) the spawn sub like grain, WBS, BRF cake (PF tek should work with this too), etc.
And you can't buy LAB at a brew shop, you can get the yeast though, to buy LAB you need to order from microbe bank (I can give you links if your interested). But, you don't want a mono-culture, you want a consortia. You want as many different types of microbes as you can get, and by fermentation LAB will naturally be the most prevalent in BIM (in most cases) and AEM has a lot of LAB. If your going to purchase something you should buy EM mother culture and ferment some into AEM. Very easy and proven results and you KNOW exactly what beneficial microbes you are adding to the PC'd jar: LAB, PnSB and yeast (brewers 'ale' yeast). These are also the microbes generally most prevalent in Nature as 'decomposer's' and fermenters, ala "zymology".
It would probably be wise to clone a mushroom or mushrooms which preform better on fermented grain (or your choice of spawn sub) vs other musrhooms from a multi-spore grow. Then use those clones for future grows.
HTH
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8819799 - 08/24/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi spacel0rd,
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First of all: thanks for sharing this wealth of info quickpick
No problem I too am enjoying this discussion, Mycelio is a smart person!
Quote:
Quote:
quickpick said: Most importantly to me is that in Nature you would never find anything by itself, and I feel it's important to add microbes to spawn and bulk sub, along with casing too. But it's important to start the spores/LC with microbes so they develop a synergistic relationship they have in Nature...
What microbes are you planning to use? Any idea which ones let the spores germinate?
I am using AEM which contains:
- LAB(s)
- Saccharomyces cerevisiae (brewers 'ale' yeast)
- PnSB(s)
- Bacillus subtilis var. natto (natto)
- Bifidobacterium(s)
- Streptococcus thermophilus
But if a BIM is used you would have a wider range of microbes and fungals too (in most cases), though I prefer AEM as it's been proven and I know it's all beneficial microbes.
As to which ones 'let the spores germinate' I have no idea but I assume they all do. As long as they are considered 'beneficial' microbes they shouldn't harm spores as they live fine with other spores (like from AM and other lower fungals).
HTH
Edited by quickpick (08/24/08 11:50 AM)
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Springs
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8820362 - 08/24/08 02:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ive had a few grain jars soaking in jars with different dilutions of em for over 2 months, there has been no change for over a month. They smell sweet and not off. I plan to inoculate with sterile eryngii grain spawn when I get the chance. If they colonize I plan to fruit from the jar. I'm hoping the em microbes have made the grains nutrition more directly available, resulting in faster fruiting compared to sterile whole grains. I think the whole grain digestion leads to constipation, and by letting "good microorganisms organize(GMO)"nutrition more suited for mycelial digestion, thus quicker fruits. I only have one gourmet species cultured, p.eryngii, I also have a print of p.ostreatus from north central canada, and a dry wild fruit from eastern canada, also ostreatus. I'm hoping to aquire as many variations of as many species as possible, and try and cultivate them using friendly mircobes(LAB,EM,BIM,etc) aswell as the traditional style and nontraditional(wood alternatives with respectable b/e's, focusing on sugercane baggase, hemp straw and chips, corn cobs, alfalfa, worm castings etc) From what I hear the "75" is the shiitake to get so thats my next move.
Peace
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8820527 - 08/24/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Springs,
Whats up man? How are you? This is gjo from the other site.
Quote:
Ive had a few grain jars soaking in jars with different dilutions of em for over 2 months, there has been no change for over a month. They smell sweet and not off. I plan to inoculate with sterile eryngii grain spawn when I get the chance. If they colonize I plan to fruit from the jar.
Cool, good luck! What types of dilutions are you using? What is the pH? Do you know the starting pH of the EM? Any yeast build up on surface of water?
Quote:
I'm hoping the em microbes have made the grains nutrition more directly available, resulting in faster fruiting compared to sterile whole grains. I think the whole grain digestion leads to constipation, and by letting "good microorganisms organize(GMO)"nutrition more suited for mycelial digestion, thus quicker fruits.
Nice. I didn't know you where using EM and mushrooms, did you use AEM too or just EM? Is it from EMRO or SCD? hahaha "GMO"...I like!
And yea I'm pretty sure the microbes will make the grain more available to hyphae, like in soil. If not by the release of chemicals from their fermentation of grain then prolly by how the fermentation effects the structure of the grain the availability of it's carbs, proteins, etc.
Quote:
I only have one gourmet species cultured, p.eryngii, I also have a print of p.ostreatus from north central canada, and a dry wild fruit from eastern canada, also ostreatus. I'm hoping to aquire as many variations of as many species as possible, and try and cultivate them using friendly mircobes(LAB,EM,BIM,etc) aswell as the traditional style and nontraditional(wood alternatives with respectable b/e's, focusing on sugercane baggase, hemp straw and chips, corn cobs, alfalfa, worm castings etc) From what I hear the "75" is the shiitake to get so thats my next move.
EXCELLENT!!! I'm there with yea, but for now I'm staying with p.cube. I'm really interesteed.
Soon I want to branch into gourmet as I have a few friends who are chefs.
Later bro
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8828060 - 08/25/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey all,
I've got some nice info about p.cubes preferred pH, and that of other mushrooms too, and guess what? (well I'm sure a lot of you already know) That p.cube and other mushrooms prefer an acidic to neutral medium/substrate, optimal pH for p.cube is in range of 4.0-4.6. That is great as that is what the pH of most fermented grains should level out around, or a bit higher around 5ish, still great though.
As far as I know a higher pH is suggested in the theory that it will ward off contaminates, not because that's what the mushroom prefers. But by fermenting with beneficial microorganisms we achieve a low pH and low chance of contamination.
And as p.cube prefers an acidic pH of 4ish the fermentation of grain, WBS, etc should work for inoculation, esp from LC, agar, Mycelio's method, etc...maybe even spores. And Mycelio's has shown it works with other mushrooms...
Another neat point in regards to pH is a mushroom's reaction which can be similar to 'nutrient lockout' in higher plants. If the medium is not in the correct range, depending upon the medium, it can cause some nutrients to be unavailable to the mushroom because the hyphae/mycelium can't utilize it due in part to pH effects upon the mushroom's metabolism. And worse is that a nutrient lockout of one nutrient can effect the mushrooms metabolism processes and hence external uptake of other nutrients.
OK, enough talk, here's the science:
"The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture by Psilocybe cubensis" by P.Catalfomo and V.E. Typler, Jr., 1963
This PDF is a great source of hard data on macro and micro nutrients, tryptophan, glucose, thiamine, ph, etc, a good read! I couldn't find it anywhere but then I found that our very own "Anno" had uploaded it as a set of GIF images in this post. So I downloaded the images and made a PDF out of them for the community
You can download the PDF I compressed into a file called "ph and nutrients.rar" from HERE It's a US file sharing site, I can't attach files to posts so I used "Flyshare" upload site. Just download the rar file and use 7zip or Win-RAR to decompress it with this password: quickpick
Quote:
Maximum production of both mycelium (dry weight) and psilocybin (percentage basis) occurred in acid medium, and both underwent a decline as the pH of the medium began to rise after the ninth day of fermentation. It was noted that psilocybin was produced during the most active growth period of the organism.
...AND...
Maximum yields of both psilocybin and mycelium occurred in the acid pH range (4.0-4.6). However, the acidic nature of the medium does not preclude the possibility that the internal pH of the organism is maintained at a different level by an efficient buffering system.
"Mushroom Biology" By Philip G. Miles, Shu-Ting Chang, p.40, 1997
Quote:
4. Nutritional Requirements For Growth
...A generalization is that most species of mushrooms grow best on a slightly acidic medium. A pH range for growth from pH 4 to pH 8 is common although there are species which may grow farther toward the ends of the pH scale. Both oxygen tension and pH have effects on metabolic processes and thus upon the ability of the mushrooms to use certain substances for their nutritional needs.
Edited by quickpick (08/25/08 11:02 PM)
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8828092 - 08/25/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh yea,
I just checked on some bokashi I've been fermenting for like 4 months and it's smells perfect, and looks good to, texture and moisture wise. I think the moisture may be perfect for injecting, maybe a little on the dry side. This bokashi will have a majority of LAB as I only used organic black strap molasses as a food sources (besides the wheat but PnSB doesn't like that).
I'm gonna fill a pre-PC'd jar 3/4 full with bokashi and inject 2cc of spores of Ecuador into it. I'll also do the same with LC of Ecuador (both multi-spore).
I should have it injected within two weeks or so. Fingers crossed
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Springs
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8831076 - 08/26/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey quickpick,
When you do your bokashi jar experiments can you also add some bokashi to some grain and then sterilize? I wouldnt add alot. I like the idea of using bokashi in place of the normal bran supplements. We're going to eperiment with our bokashi as well.
Im about to start soaking and fermenting 6 jars of oat's, 3 of which will be ph adjusted before I g2g.
Should be interesting.
peace
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8831563 - 08/26/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey bro,
sure, what %, like 2? 5? Less?
What pH are you guys going go to adjust to? And what are you guys using to adjust the pH?
Yes, bokashi seems promising. I'll mix some bokashi at a 1:1 with distilled water (pre-tested for pH) and put on mag stir plate with a mag stir rod to mix it up...and let 'er run for like 20 min. Then test the pH, this may give a useful indication of my bokashi's pH. It maybe be around 5ish, I would be happier if it was lower than 5.
later man
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worowa
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8831589 - 08/26/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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What about PCing some liquid from your bokashi and/or other ferments and/or worm juice....and use the liquid to make either agar plates (good for visuals) or an LC?
Well I'm going to try with worm juice and soak juice-don't have a bokashi as such.
It might prepare the mycelium to handle other organisms more quickly than more simple nutrient formulas.
-------------------- We are all in this together. Visit my site, forestfungi.com.au, let me know what you think.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: worowa]
#8834904 - 08/27/08 08:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Guys,
let us please discuss those fascinating ideas in a separate thread and keep this one free for subjects, which are directly related to fermented grain.
I'm happy to have initiated or catalyzed all this, but for people reading this thread it gets hard to find on-topic information. Also when searching, people will not expect to find this stuff here.
Perhaps we start one general thread, collecting ideas, adding our knowledge and then branch out new ones, whenever we start real experiments.
Thanks, Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8835086 - 08/27/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Mycelio,
Sure, I'll start a new thread in a bit for general fermenting and microbe talk. But, IMO, all this talk is on topic in this thread. The sub your fermenting doesn't matter as much as how your fermenting it. Most of this talk is about fermenting and microbes, the why's and how's, which IMO is required for ppl to have the necessary background knowledge to understand why they are doing what they are doing, not just how to do it.
I don't think there is too big of a difference about fermenting grain vs WBS vs some other subs, the important part is the process of fermentation and the microbes in use.
I apologize if we are mucking up your thread with talk about bokashi. I thought you wanted to talk about, or were interested in bokashi discussion in this thread, I misunderstood, sorry.
My only question is where should I start a 'general discussion' thread about fermenting and microbes? I requested that a new sub-forum be created but RR said to post in Advanced. However, I get the feeling he doesn't want discussion threads in Advanced, he wants threads after experimenting. So where should I start new threads? Surely not in 'Cultivation', that place is just crazy with none-sense threads and too many Q's asked 1000 times. I'll PM RR and ask him what he'd like me to do.
Thanks, and again I apologize for my part in mucking up your thread, I hope you having a nice day!
Edited by quickpick (08/27/08 09:47 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8835335 - 08/27/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi Quickpick,
no need to be sorry! I am extremely interested in bokashi and fermentation of various substrates. Just thought we talk about too many subjects and better open up a new thread here under advanced. Then we can link from here to it and back.
Regarding another subforum, in my opinion it is too early. We can collect ideas, start several experiments on liquid and solid substrates and then post tutorials. A couple of new threads won't hurt the forum.
Carsten
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mbrown3391
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8836807 - 08/27/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mbrown3391 said: Perhaps this experiment could be applied to improve sterility even with pressure cooked jars. One could add lactic acid purchased from a brewer's store to their culture. any thoughts?
I was referring to the actual chemical lactic acid, not a culture of bacteria. Would acidifying a growing medium be enough to obtain the sterility benefits you describe, or is the culture necessary for this?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8837491 - 08/27/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi mbrown3391,
I thought so too, but others told me that an acidic environment would not prevent mold. I only know for sure, that lactobacillus can effectively fight mold and prevent mold (and other fungal) spores from germinating.
From what I have read, there is more than only lactic acid. They use up carbohydrates that are easily available and are able to produce antibiotic and anti-fungal substances. You may ferment and sterilize, but then perhaps those substances get destroyed. It could also be possible that the bacteria only react on a mold attack and then produce their chemical weapons.
As my aim was finding the simplest possible method, I never tried to PC after fermenting.
Carsten
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mbrown3391
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8837624 - 08/27/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok, fermentation isnt that hard anyway so i might as well ferment rather than buying lactic acid. which lactobacillus do you reccomend, L. Acidophilus? could a drop of yogurt be used to culture a liquid medium? the milk dependent bacteria would die, however L. Acidophilus (i believe) can metabolize any sugar.
Edited by mbrown3391 (08/27/08 06:41 PM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8837944 - 08/27/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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The previous pages have convinced me that there may be also other species of microbes involved, so I rely on nature and recommend not to add anything at all.
Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8839316 - 08/27/08 10:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi Mycelio,
Do you mind if I provide a nice 'how-to' for isolating, culturing and mixing your own EM like BIM with a majority of LAB? It's very easy to do and I've been working on this method for a while. Anyway, it would answer 'mbrown3391' question and the info on making a LAB solution with wild genera of LAB from air would be interesting to you I think...and very on topic for this thread.
But I'm still worknig on the how-to, it may take me another hour or two or three...lots of info. Anyway, if you read this before that let me know if it's Ok or not to post it. If I don't hear from you I'll post it and then move it if you want me to.
Thanks
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8839592 - 08/28/08 12:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey,
well on second thought, maybe I'll just use that how-to to start a new thread on BIM and microbes...I need to work on the info more, I should have it done by tomorrow sometime and I'll post a new thread.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8839944 - 08/28/08 01:53 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi Quickpick,
cool, I'm looking forward to reading a new thread about isolating and culturing beneficial microbes.
Carsten
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8841429 - 08/28/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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It would be great to have individual threads on each type of culture and it's isolation, growth, etc. But, please, keep it concise as possible. While discussion threads are great and have their place, it's a pain trying to find individual posts in a thread to retrieve information later.
I am aware of the favorites option, but when you need ten "favorites" to highlight the particular posts you're interested in within a single thread, it gets old. Kinda defeats the purpose when you have to dig in your favorites.
Great thread BTW!
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8841858 - 08/28/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey MycoAu,
Yes, that's my plan, though I hope 5 new threads isn't too much in Advanced?
One for each:
LAB PnSB yeast natto combining them all into EM-like ferment keeping master solutions of all the different microbes (I'll write this one later on)
When I do how-to threads it's always very step by step, easy to follow Then we can discuss each topic in it's own thread, and a general BIM general discussion thread would be good to, but that's not needed right now.
I'm busy today, but I should have time to work on the how-to tonight at some point and tomorrow too.
And yes, I agree this is a great thread, thanks Mycelio
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8847452 - 08/29/08 01:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks to all of you for the positive feedback and for your input here. I'm glad we can add our knowledge and discuss details without turning the whole story into religion.
Hopefully, some growers try fermented grain and the method spreads. I'm sure we can find and test more of those natural methods, not requiring a sterile environment, antibiotics, etc.
Carsten
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8850364 - 08/29/08 11:15 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8864677 - 09/02/08 07:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have a question about fermentign straw:
Should it work similar to fermenting grain? All the stuff is in a bucket. After two days it got a bit slimy on top and started to stink. Stinking is still there to some extent. But fortunately it isn't getting worse. Otherwise my gf would hav tossed this stuff.
Is there supposed to be bubbling as with grain? Should it smell the same way? How to check if things are alrigh? PH strips, or anything else? I might ask in a pharmacy today if they have those.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8865407 - 09/02/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes, for straw the procedure is the same. Take care you have clean straw and have it covered with water. Turn the bucket daily or use a clean spoon and stir around, so nothing stays at the surface for too long. Also cover the bucket. After two days it should start to smell strange. The smell is hard to describe. I'd say intense, sour and somehow fruity. To me it appears sweeter than fermenting grain. I use straw pellets from the pet store, which bubble a lot. Every few hours the straw rises to the surface and I have to take care the bucket doesn't bubble over. When moved, the straw sinks to the bottom again. If you got ordinary straw, it may bubble less. The slime you describe should not be there. Perhaps you better pour it off and replace water if needed. PH strips from the pharmacy are quite expensive and won't help much here. The PH falls from 7 to 6, that's all.
The straw will be ready after three or four days of fermentation. You don't need to wait until the bubbling stops and the smell gets more fishy, though it is still usable then. Use clean hands and press out as much water as you can before inoculation. The remaining liquid can be used as a plant fertilizer (10% fermentation liquid, 90% water) or poured on the compost pile. Grain spawn will grow in quickly. Spores do germinate, but need two or three weeks until you see mycelium.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8865546 - 09/02/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh man it got fishy very fast. And hardly fruity. I did not turn around regularly. Seems like I really messed it up. Maybe i should toss it?
Or just give it a try once I have some myc. It's not gonna hurt I guess.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8865612 - 09/02/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you are really going to try, better discard the top layer and use some straw from below. It may be good to try again with a small amount.
Carsten
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8865789 - 09/02/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've been interested in substrates that don't need to be sterilized. Looks like you may have found the holy grail of those. I'll give it a try with regular store bought edibles.
Would cow shit ferment? In nature cow shit is often a sloppy wet mess, very anaerobic. Even when it dries out it doesn't allow much oxygen, that's why it gets hard like a rock and the mycelium takes a long time to grow through it all. When I left some cow shit in water by accident and poured it out weeks later, strange mushrooms grew where I poured it, that I hadn't seen before.
If it would ferment, then a mix of worm shit and cow shit with grain would probably be best.
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Mycelio
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I think people ferment cow shit and straw for methane production. Biogas fermentation involves several chemicals, which are toxic for most mushrooms. The addition of plant material, grain or sugar might improve it, but I don't know.
Carsten
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8874722 - 09/04/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I started two jars to ferment today. One of oats, another of wheat and yeast. The yeast is because it seems like the alcohol content wouldn't be very high at all in a week or two, so maybe the mycelium would survive it.
I'm going to place a few mushroom stems on the oats after draining but I'll keep the water I drained off and use it to hydrate dry worm shit and manure and see how that works. If I can get mushrooms to grow with this fermentation method at least 100 times then it's gotta be a great method cause my house is prone to contamination.
Ill compare the substrates to see which is best.
I'm going to try table mushrooms first.
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Mycelio
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Interesting. Please keep us updated.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8876075 - 09/04/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cube-Update:
In both jars the fermented grain got completely colonized and pins appeared. I used a mix of WBS and annual rye grass. Due to the small kernels it was too wet, there was some water pooling at the bottom and I had yeast growing in it, which slowed down growth. Next time I would use wheat, rye or rice and rinse better to get rid of as much yeast as possible.
So cube mycelium is able to grow into fermented grain, but it either takes very long to start or needs help by adding fermented straw.
Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8877124 - 09/04/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nice!
Thanks for the update. I'm starting mine soon, next week. And the threads on culturing beneficial microbes, etc is coming. I got side tracked with some things so its taking me a bit longer than I thought.
I'm gonna test soaking rye berries in AEM and yucca (for surfactant) for 20 hours, heat for a bit at 120-130F, drain, soak for 2-3 more hours with AEM and yucca, drain/dry for a bit, then inject with LC. I'll let you know how it goes...
Thanks for the great work Carsten!
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8885843 - 09/06/08 09:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey quickpick,
can you do an additional jar without additives? Would be great to compare the results.
And for the other threads... Might be a lot of work to prepare all of them. Perhaps it is easier to start one after the other?
Greetings, Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8887787 - 09/06/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Mycelio,
Sure I can do that. But what do you mean without additives? Just distilled water? Or without yucca?
I'm designing and putting all my experiments on paper tonight.
And yes, I think that's a good idea about one thread at a time. I've started the LAB isolation yesterday and I'll take a few pics in a few days and start the thread then. After that I'll do the yeast thread and then the PnSB thread and then the thread to mix them (EM like), usage thread, etc.
You'll be interested in this: This grow I've got all kinds of experiments going but in one I'm going to use the AEM with rye method (no PC), then into sub with AEM and case with pH adjustment to about 5, keeping a low pH for mycelium and instead relying upon AEM microbes to preclude harmful microbes in casing, not a high pH of 8 or more. No PCing at all and only light pasteurization. Mostly as a proof of concept but I have high hopes, my AEM smells great and pH was 4.6 to start and after two days it was 3.7. I'm gonna let it fall below 3.3-3.4 before I use it because I added hydrolyzed fish to feed the PnSB. I'm thinking of doing a grow-log...
Later man
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8891774 - 09/07/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think Mycelio meant try some jars the way he did, without adding AEM or something like that. Probably because it'll be interesting to see how many people can do this the way he did.
If it works well for a lot of people in many different parts of the world then it's probably pretty effective and then he'll know he isn't just lucky or that it isn't just his area which has a higher concentration of whatevers making it work.
Interesting that this slightly fruity sweet slightly sour fermentation smell reminds me of the really ripe manure that has lots of mushrooms.
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quickpick
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Hey ITRS,
I read it to mean he wants to me use a control, for a comparison to my AEM soaked rye (which is a fast ferment). If so that's good because I already doing that.
One thing other people are going to have to consider are chlorine and much worse are chloramines. While I'm not sure what effect they have on higher fungals like p.cube I know chlorine will hinder microbes and chloramines can kill the whole lot of them. Some city water systems are adding chloramines. What this means is if you use this kind of water you will be killing or at least hindering the very microbes you are trying to use.
To remove chlorine you can leave it out in an open container for 24 hours. Or put it in a bucket and bubble for 20 minutes. Most any organic matter will remove chlorine from water as the chlorine will attack the organic matter and get 'used up' trying to attack the organic matter. Humic acid is a fine choice IMO..just a little is fine, like 1/8 tsp per gallon or weaker.
To remove chloramines here is a method I know works, others do to but are more confusing or expensive. I get 'ascorbic acid' from my beer brew store (where I get corn suger, etc). It's a powder and I only apply 0.01 gram per gallon, more is not better. I usually apply it in 10 gallons batches as it's easier to measure 0.1 gram. But chloramines are mainly a US problem I think.
The best option for water to ferment with, short of using water from a 'good' pond or stream is steam distilled water:
A quote from my buddies study: http://www.simplici-tea.com/water_quality_article.htm
Quote:
Testing is critical, especially in the beginning, to produce a tea that solves our problems. I would like to focus on water quality for AACT production. A client had a tea center for 2 years and was struggling to get good fungal numbers. He did all the chemical tests on his water and was told the water should work well for tea production. He then tested with another water source, keeping all other variables the same (brewer, temperature, time of day, compost, foods, etc.). The results showed he could produce good fungal numbers with one water, whereas the other water source had unacceptable numbers even though the chemical tests said each water should produce good tea. Because of the above experience, when setting up a farm with a 500 and 340 gallon brewer, we decided to test all of his water sources. We did the chemical tests and they were all acceptable for his tea production. The farm has 5 wells, a ditch, neighbor’s water, RO (reverse osmosis), distilled and soft water without nitrates. All of the brews used the same compost, foods, temperature, time of brew and 5 gallon brewer. The only variable was the water source. These tests were done prior to setting up the tea production. Our goal was to identify the best water source. Water is a huge factor in the quality of tea produced.
H2O........................Active Fungal.....Total Fungal.....Hyphal Diameter Distilled.............................1.34............ ...14.7..................4 Ditch..................................3.34............. ..21.1..................4 Well water w/o nitrates....1.67...............3.91............... ...4 Well #3.............................1.02...............13.5 ..................3 RO (reverse osmosis).......0.70...............17.5............ ......3 Soft water w/o nitrates.......0.45...............0.96............... ..2.5
From the above tests it becomes obvious the ability to produce good tea varies with the water source. Though not truly scientific (no 3 replications for each water tested), it gave us an idea of the best water to use. I would strongly recommend the testing of all your sources of water prior to production by making tea and having these tested (We have used the Soil Foodweb lab in Corvalis, Oregon). There is a huge difference between chemical tests of water and biological tests of what the water will support and grow in the brewing process. We found ditch water had the greatest biological potential.
Thanks
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8894812 - 09/08/08 04:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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The grain is fermenting well. So fast. I'm going to try a pf tek with fermentation water instead of regular water. I've always had problems with brown rice flour. Maybe this time I won't. To hydrate the horse/cow/worm dung I'll probably put the fermentation water into a mister and just lightly hydrate it. I'm going to try bird seed hydrated this way as well.
I'm going to try it with a liquid culture at first, adding mycelium to the fermenting grain, and then just using filtered fermentation water for a liquid culture along with a small amount of honey. I've got some manure compost, as well as plenty of manure from the pastures. I'll try both. I also have a red worm farm and store bought worm castings. Trying both of those too.
Eventually I want to try about 100 jars of each substrate with the fermentation liquid, then 100 of the dung and compost without it. I won't even bother trying grains or bird seed or brown rice flour without sterilization or the fermentation liquid. I know it would contaminate. There's some pretty aggressive cubensis that grows near here so I may try that but I'm mainly going to focus on store bought mushrooms. The liquid cultures are going well.
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Mycelio
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Hello,
@Quickpick yes, I thought about such a control jar only with grain and water. It is possible you have different strains of microbes flying around where you are, but it should work all over this planet as making sourdough without a starter culture also works everywhere. Also, if you change several parameters at once, it will be hard to compare our results. That is something I usually mess up myself. In the end I have no idea, which change was reliable for the different results.
Good point with the chlorine. Didn't think about it as my tap water here only contains CaCO3 and CaSO4. As you said, boiling or letting it sit in an open pot for a day should reduce the problem.
And yes, reading a growlog of your AEM experiments would be cool!
@InTheRainySeason: I am excited about your plans, but please consider starting a smaller number of jars on the first run. I think you are the first one using fermentation water and inoculating from LC. It would be sad if you had to dispose houndreds of jars.
Carsten
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8897669 - 09/08/08 06:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'll probably try just 6 jars this month then 6 next month. I'm hoping I'll get to 100 jars with no contamination.
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Springs
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8906965 - 09/10/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey mycelio, im curious about your pelletized straw. What brand do you use? Most pelletized straw is heavily cleaned and sterilized, and its expensive, have you used regular straw?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8907096 - 09/10/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is called 'Natur-Strohstreu' by MultiFit. Don't know if that helps if you are outside germany. Got it in a pet store where it is sold to be put on the floor of cages with rodents, so it would absorb urine. I think it was 5 bucks for 8 kg. Somewhere I read the straw would heat up when being pressed into pellets, that might explain sterility. From my experience it is pretty clean.
As I live in the center of a big city, it seems impossible to get a bale of straw, so I never used that.
Carsten
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Springs
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8908367 - 09/10/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks!
My fermentation experiment with oats is looking positive. My p.eryngii is starting to colonize, while my cube's are still trying to figure it out, but no visual competition so far.
I did my transfers outside, I first rinsed my grain thoroughly then laid it out on my trampoline in the sun to zap some excess moisture off. I then hand filled the grain and added spawn from jar with a spoon. Its been 3 days.
Oh and the grain was soaking with 2%-5% gypsum.
peace.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8910580 - 09/11/08 01:01 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Interesting way to get rid of excess moisture!
But good to know that oats work too.
Carsten
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8926427 - 09/13/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmmm. Grain was steel cut which shouldn't be much of a problem but it floats a lot so I'm going to add gravel on top. I don't think the gravel will mess up the fermentation. This will make it easier to drain possibly. I also wrapped some oat and brown rice into some foil and poked lots of little holes in it with a tac and I'm leaving that one to ferment. The foil should make it easier to drain. Then maybe I can just inject the liquid culture into that when it's been drained.
The liquid culture mycelium didn't seem to mind the fermentation water.
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Mycelio
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Unfortunately I don't know what 'steel cut' means. It is much easier to maintain anaerobic conditions below the surface than above. Can you remove the floating kernels, or would all kernels float?
Good news that your LC survived. Please describe what you did and which species of mushroom you used.
Carsten
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JaComet
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8927400 - 09/14/08 05:44 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Great stuff folks.
A no bux ferment lock. Get a good toy balloon. Put a fine needle hole through the closed end, where there is usually a thick spot. Stretch over mouth of jug or cork with tube. A good ferment will puff the balloon and excess escape through the hole.
--------------------
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: JaComet]
#8927624 - 09/14/08 07:41 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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About half of the grain was floating. It was too messy for me to bother with so I started a new one with foil to keep the grains from floating. Psilocybe Subviscida. I injected the liquid culture mycelium into the fermenting jar and it started growing on the grains. That was the jar I started over. In another jar I soaked brown rice with the fermentation water and placed liquid culture mycelium on top. It grew pretty fast but subviscida may not be a good one to test this with because it grows so easily. I'll try a few more species when I can get around to it. The pH was pretty low at the time I inoculated the fermenting water. When I try cubensis or something else I'll put the mycelium in the fermenting water before it's been fermenting for long.
It had been fermenting for about 3 days before I put the mycelium in it. Maybe it can adapt quicker if the conditions change slowly.
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HazeyRoms
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I do not have the time to read through all of these post, but does this work for P. Cubensis?
-------------------- -Sonn, Hazey here. And I'm bacc. Anyone in Wisconsin, PM me. Unity my nillas/niggas. -"5 Nike duffle bags??? How much does all that weigh?? - Just 30 pounds Bruhh, relax my nilla, it don't stink like weed so we're all good."-(Penis Envy Moments)-
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: HazeyRoms]
#8928998 - 09/14/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey HR,
Quote:
I do not have the time to read through all of these post, but does this work for P. Cubensis?
Yes with caveats. If your going to try this you really should read the whole thread, it's really interesting and there is info in there you should know. Also, if you read my LAB thread that will give you more background info and understanding of what, why and how.
Quote:
By Mycelio: Cube-Update:
In both jars the fermented grain got completely colonized and pins appeared. I used a mix of WBS and annual rye grass. Due to the small kernels it was too wet, there was some water pooling at the bottom and I had yeast growing in it, which slowed down growth. Next time I would use wheat, rye or rice and rinse better to get rid of as much yeast as possible.
So cube mycelium is able to grow into fermented grain, but it either takes very long to start or needs help by adding fermented straw.
Carsten
HTH
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8931936 - 09/15/08 05:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is beautiful. About 5 days ago I hydrated some shwag(cheap cannabis) with the fermentation water. I figured it wouldn't grow well because of the anti fungal compounds in cannabis and roger rabbit didn't have good results with bud. I put in mostly seeds because I think they'd be more nutritious than just bud. The seeds were cooked a while to prevent germination and then soaked in the ferment water and then drained and pressed with a paper towel to remove excess water. I poured it into a half pint jar till it was near the top.
I figured the mycelium wouldn't do well because of the anti fungals and because I used a syringe. Usually the syringe won't work well because I can't get much fungus in it as my LCs are always too thick, even for the blender. I normally just pinch mycelium off and place it in the substrate.
I also thought it would be a good test for the ferment water because my weed seeds always get moldy very fast when they're moist, but this time no mold. I can't remember the last time I checked, either yesterday or the day before, but there was no signs of life other than the fermenters. Today I checked and saw beautiful rapidly growing mycelium where I injected. Now I'm excited.
The new fermenting grain jar is going well and the mycelium hasn't slowed down at all, it's still munching the grains. Most of the grain is inside the foil but I put some outside for the mycelium to eat before it reaches inside the foil.
Weed seeds with a bit of weed holds perfect moisture content so much better than I would've imagined. I was thinking it would be too wet or too dry but it's perfect.
Edited by InTheRainySeason (09/15/08 06:11 AM)
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Anand
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Recently I have watered about half of my P Cyan patch with AEM(diluted 1:100, about 20 liters in total for 50kg of beech chips (half the patch)) just to see what would happen. Next week I will try what would happen if a mushroom would fall in my kitchen bokashi bucket
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Anand]
#8936117 - 09/15/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Should work well for P Cyan. I read some great things in quickpick's LAB thread about how it breaks down materials and makes them more available as nutrients. Wood lovers are already so tough, these microbes will probably make growing them even easier.
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Anand
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Well the part with the EM liquid is not fruiting, the other is....
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Anand]
#9028896 - 10/04/08 02:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's a bummer. I found some notes I thought were interesting...
"Large numbers of spores in a concentrated area can overwhelm just about any fungicide. Growers have even inoculated peroxided agar with a large swipe of spores and had a few survive to germinate. The other possibilities exist as well, of course. RR "
"None that I know of. Most fungicides kill all spores, but allow mycelium to grow untouched. Thiophanate-methyl is approved by the FDA for use on mushroom crops and I ran some tests on it a few years ago. It's the active ingredient in Banrot 40WP. You can read up on it here. http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/tm/tmsummary.htm RR "
So I'm thinking this ferment method would work with spores if you used a lot of spores. Like a dark syringe... An idea I have is to print the spores on blades of grass and use this in the ferment treated substrate. Placing the blades in a group stacked on each other on top of the substrate when the jar is only half full of substrate, then fill in the rest. I think any contam spores would be in such a small amount that the mushroom spores would overwhelm them quickly.
Unfortunately I made my liquid culture without sterile procedures, so I may be cultivating mold which I hope is really mushroom mycelium. I used all my spores up. But from the tests I've done, I know that it works well to kill foreign spores, so at least that.
Roger Rabbit also mentioned rhododendron as a fungicide that'll prevent contam spores from germinating while allowing the mushroom mycelium to grow. There was an old topic with no follow up, where they discussed using oregano oil and other herb oils as a fungicide treatment for substrates. I think this would work much like the ferment method. At certain concentrations, oregano oil will lose its effectiveness at fighting mold spores and other contamination after a few weeks. So I think it would work well with a concentrated spore solution or mushroom stems....
Oregano seems great because it's so hardy and easy to grow. I also live in a perfect climate for it.
Edited by InTheRainySeason (10/04/08 02:35 PM)
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acromonium
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I had a thought for outdoor grows. Instead of ant traps and all the bad karma associated with that use ground up habanero. ants wont eat it, dogs wont dig it. i dont think the active ingredient will interfere with mycelium, prolly just get consumed.
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CheeWiz
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#9041767 - 10/07/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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What you have here is the old mycology trick of using a low PH to inhibit the growth of bacteria, plus some form of symbiotic relationship between the mushroom your trying to grow and whatever the bacteria that's producing the lactic acid. What would be really great is if you could isolate the symbiotic bacteria. The problem with natural endogenous bacteria and their endo spores is that they do very from plant to plant, local to local and you may have been lucky in that your grain has the right strains of bacteria. That's why I say isolating it would be helpful information for us to have so we could better under what's going on.
The growing of mushrooms goes back 1000's of years. Well beyond leister and others or PC's. Our ancestor learned at first by seeing what was going on in nature then trial & err and some just plain good luck. It kind of makes one wonder is that before there were PC's if soon thing like this may have been used in growing their base spawn and for the all most religious use of rye grain in preparing spawn. Many times its regular people that come up with the most useful discovers and not some eggheads that's all too eager to claim credit.
What I'm working with now is clean washed straw that has been inoculated with Bacillus Subtilis, Natto grown on soy beans. There are many forms Bacillus Subtilias found around the world and most are pro biotic in many whys and is one of the bacteria that survives digestion in equines and found in their dung. But more on that at a later time as I'm in the early stages. Hipster
Edited by CheeWiz (10/07/08 11:32 AM)
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: CheeWiz]
#9043767 - 10/07/08 05:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's awesome. Maybe one of you will isolate the perfect bacteria with the most anti-contam qualities.
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Mycelio
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@Hipster Bacillus subtilis might be useful for fermenting substrates, which are rich on nitrogen, like mixtures of straw and beans. This would be interesting for species like agaricus bisporus. My previous experiments all ended with the foul odor of butyric acid... Please keep us updated about your experiments.
@inTheRainySeason: Good find about the use of masses of spores, though it may be much easier to germinate a few spores on straw or fermented straw and then inoculate fermented grain with active mycelium. The effect, that some species of mushrooms won't colonize and spores won't germinate, may be caused by the low PH, rather than by antibiotics.
Just found a German website, explaining microbial life in sourdough, which is the same as in our fermenting grain. They talk about three groups of species. Group one and two are lactobacillus, which break down starch into sugar, where group one is the majority and more effective. Group one produces only lactic acid from sugar, group two does too, but also creates acetic acid and some CO2. Group three consists of acid tolerant yeasts, which produce alcohol and CO2 from sugar. These yeasts are not the ones, that may grow on the surface, if the fermenting grain gets too much fresh air.
A few common species in sourdough:
Group 1: - Lactobacillus plantarum - Lactobacillus casei - Lactobacillus delbrueckii - Lactobacillus leichmannii
Group 2: - Lactobacillus brevis - Lactobacillus fermenti - Lactobacillus pastorianus - Lactobacillus buechneri
Group 3: - Saccharomyces cerevisiae - Pichia saitoi - Candida crusei - Torulopsis holmii
Then some German scientists found lactobacillus reuteri in sourdough and examined its antibiotic product, called reutericyclin. This substance is reliable for killing other types of bacteria.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#9046044 - 10/08/08 01:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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@ Mycelio:
So germinating spores on fermented straw actually works? :O That's pretty cool. Unfortunately my second straw experiment failed again. This time I put the straw in jar to have a better anaerobic condition than in a bucket. I even had some grain in that jar as well, because I felt grain was doing better for fermentation. But still, it got really ugly. Opened it after a few days and again: slimy and stinky.
So I advise everybody to rather use straw pellets as Carsten did. I will do so soon.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#9046497 - 10/08/08 06:10 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hi Spacelord,
I once tried cube spores on straw. The straw started fermenting, but mycelium showed up after three weeks. So it works, but you need patience. It should be faster, if the spores germinated already. You can fill a syringe with straw tea (a few pellets boiled in water for 5 - 10 minutes) and some spores. Germination will happen after two days. Then shake and inoculate with single drops or more. So far I never had contams this way, even with inoculating sterile grain.
Carsten
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Burn it up
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#9080125 - 10/15/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Great post, man.
Very interesting
--------------------
-Purple Placebo-
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baltazar
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Burn it up]
#9236595 - 11/13/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can the grain, fermented using this method, be inoculated with LC?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: baltazar]
#9236682 - 11/13/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hard to say without knowing which species... Better try mushroom stems or put a spoonful of colonized substrate on top.
Carsten
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Anand
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Anand]
#9536444 - 01/03/09 06:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anand said: Well the part with the EM liquid is not fruiting, the other is....
Looks like all the myc is gone in the part that i used the EM on, only the EM myc is growing
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Anand]
#9536619 - 01/03/09 07:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Too bad! Does that mean you have started a LC with bokashi?
Carsten
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goose2r
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Anand]
#9536967 - 01/03/09 09:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anand said:
Quote:
Anand said: Well the part with the EM liquid is not fruiting, the other is....
Looks like all the myc is gone in the part that i used the EM on, only the EM myc is growing
EM doesn't have myc, it has no fungi besides sugar yeast. The original formulation of EM used to have so-called "ray" fungi but no longer. You maybe noticing the yeast output.
-goose2r
Edited by goose2r (01/03/09 10:12 AM)
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: goose2r]
#9682704 - 01/26/09 01:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm guessing this is the particular species that's blocking contamination. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12561574
And they sell starter culture of it http://www.bodyecology.com/07/08/16/lactobacillus_plantarum_benefits.php
Probably wouldn't be all that hard to isolate now that I know which one does it. There's probably many species that do it but that one seems like the best.
Isolating it might have even more contam resistant properties. And it would probably speed the process up a lot.
"Actively growing Lactobacillus plantarum CGMCC 1.1856 cells totally inhibited the germination of mold spores. Cell-free supernatant broth from the fermentation of Lactobacillus plantarum could not destroy the viability of mold spore. While the pH of the culture broth and supernatant were about 4.0, and the acidification of non-fermented broth to pH 4.0 with lactic acid could not cause a similar inhibition on spore germination. This experiment discounted the possibility that the inhibitory effect on mold growth was due to the lactic acid produced by Lactobacillus, and suggested that the effect was because of both low pH and microbial competition."
Nice to know that it's good for us. I've got some wheat fermenting, and an oat/brown rice/wheat mixture fermenting as well. I'm going to try to see if I can get the contam resistance into the rice. If I could do that it'd be really nice. Plantarum doesn't seem picky about its food so it should work. I've got a lot of mycelium to work with now. It seems that coating the stuff won't work and that it needs to be fermented with the lactobacillus so that there's a lot of cells in the spawn. I'm also going to inoculate a sourdough mixture. But it has a cup of brown rice powder along with a cup of wheat flour. I'm going to use ferment water to speed the process up when I mix it, and to make sure there's more lactobacillus in it, then when it's mixed up I'm going to let it colonize the dough for an additional 8 days.
I'm going to try various types of leaves to ferment like kimchi. I'll start with devils ivy since I have lots of that and it'll hold moisture well.
Edited by InTheRainySeason (01/26/09 01:55 PM)
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Mycelio
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Lactobacillus plantarum seems to be common. I expect it to occur in fermenting grain anyway.
Should start some sauerkraut experiments myself, though I'll use some vegetables.
Good luck and keep us updated, Carsten
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goose2r
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#9684981 - 01/26/09 08:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
InTheRainySeason said: I'm guessing this is the particular species that's blocking contamination. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12561574
And they sell starter culture of it http://www.bodyecology.com/07/08/16/lactobacillus_plantarum_benefits.php
All/nearly all species of Lactobacillus spp. will hinder microbes which can not live in the environment colonized and fermented by Lactobacillus spp. When using microbes you want to use a synergistic consortium so they benefit each other. A mono-culture is very rarely found in Nature. L.plantarum is one of the most common species but others should offer similar benefits they just are not as well studied.
For example, EM is a synergistic consortium of sugar yeast, PnSB and LAB. Some manufactures like SCD world also include Bacillus spp. and even Bifidobacterium spp. (which is mainly for human/animal benefit when consumed). In EM the yeast ferments with the molasses, as does the LAB. The LAB feeds upon chemicals released during the yeast's fermentation process and PnSB feeds upon dead yeast cells. PnSB also feeds upon dead LAB and other chemicals released by LAB.
If you want to use a pure culture of Lactobacillus spp. you can indeed isolate and culture it at home for very cheap. To isolate L.plantarum would be hard as you need to do serial dilutions, plate and identify, then isolate again and culture in enrichment broth.
Here is a thread a few pages back I found the other day., directions to isolate and culture Lactobacillus spp.: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8910533/an/0/page/5
Oh yea, you should add 1% calcium carbonate powder in the enrichment broth (the molasses/water mix) when culturing the LAB spp. LAB prefers a acid/neutral pH of around 5-6.5. That thread is good but there are tweaks which would make the isolation more trustworthy (when not verifying with a microscope). The biggest difference I would do is serial dilutions into fresh enrichment broth. I would do 2-3 serial dilutions. By then the culture should be nearly/totally all LAB.
-goose2r
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: goose2r]
#9724120 - 02/02/09 05:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Mycelio, you mentioned you were going to try fermented brown rice, did it work? I tried it and it contaminated, maybe cause it was too wet since it was very wet. I'm going to try fermenting it for 2 weeks instead of one this time and make sure it's not so wet.
I also had wheat flour in the mixture, and oats. That could've screwed it up. And I'm wondering if boiling grain is necessary so that it kills the contam spores before they can germinate when the grains are submerged, since I don't know if the beneficial bacteria like l plantarum would kill the already germinated mold.
I'm looking forward to isolating the lactobacillus plantarum because I know that will work, but it's going to probably need to go through the natural process of pH lowering before I can add the isolated bacteria effectively.
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Mycelio
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I do fermentation with grains covered by water, so too wet can't be a problem. Too little water and too much air favors contams. Try filling a jar half with grain and then up to three quarters with water.
Wheat flour should ferment fine, as in sourdough, but the flour will not make a good mushroom substrate, better use whole kernels.
And no, I didn't try rice yet, also oats. I boil grains only to prevent germination of the plants, nothing else. After cooking I add the water from soaking to inoculate with lactobacillus species. If you want to inoculate with L. plantarum, you should boil, adjust the PH with citric acid and add L. plantarum immediately, otherwise the natural microbes will have colonized everything.
Good luck, Carsten
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obi
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#9742479 - 02/05/09 06:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anyone tried this with Kefir?
I feel like experimenting.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: obi]
#9747998 - 02/06/09 04:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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The microbes in yogurt and kefir are specialized in fermenting milk. You don't want to grow mushrooms in milk.
Carsten
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obi
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#9748054 - 02/06/09 05:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I was thinking more about water kefir, 'fasting' milk kefir beforehand might be an option as well.
I'm gonna try it.
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: obi]
#11192921 - 10/06/09 11:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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wow great post! it unifies two subjects i'm really interested in! i make sourkraut and kefir, great stuff! have you guys halted experiments? does the thread continue anywhere? are you alive?maybe you could write a list of accomplishments so far? (sorry for the avalanche i'm just very excited!)
from what i understand cubes take long in colonizing grain. do they also take long with straw? maybe grain could be made fluffier with some verm? is a small agar wedge enough or do you need a big chunk of mycelium or shroom like in the pics ? once colonized is the rest of the growing the same length as usual? have you tried shitake or reishi with fermented spawn?
i'll stop now before i can think of more questions to flood the thread heh
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11193186 - 10/06/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Remember reading this post about a year ago =] Lol what a BUMP xD
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11193306 - 10/06/09 12:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey ddreamer,
yes, I am still using this method from time to time. Lately I did some experiments in non sterile bottle cultivation and used fermented grain as a bottom layer, covered with alternating layers of colonized straw and fresh substrate. Worked fine for Pleurotus ostreatus and eryngii, Coprinus comatus did not colonize the grain completely and contaminated, but is currently fruiting. Macrolepiota procera did not get far, contaminated and died.
This is Pleurotus eryngii growing into the fermented grain layer.
For cubes, I wouldn't expect much. Shiitake will build up its brown defense line and perhaps colonize the grain later or never. Reishi remains to be tested. In any case you better have a layer of colonized substrate on top, so you have strong mycelium with enough oxygen. Don't mix.
Fermented straw (PH 5 to 6) makes more sense for cubes than grain (PH 3 to 4). Due to the higher PH it will be colonized quickly. Remember, a PH difference of 2 represents 100 times more/less molecules of lactic acid.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (10/06/09 12:13 PM)
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11193456 - 10/06/09 12:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can i expect success using this method with cubensis myc. peace or spores? Remind me why spores woould luckily not work? what with edible shroom spores?
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11193895 - 10/06/09 01:42 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, spores won't germinate and even if they could, the mycelium would be too weak to survive. Same for LC. Apart from the low PH the microbes produce antibiotics. As written above you need big chunks of mycelium. Cube mycelium may grow in after a week if you are lucky, but success is less likely than with Pleurotus species.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11198459 - 10/07/09 02:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok i see its all about pH I know by making the pH higher you give other stuff chances to grow but it worth a try =] WBS will work right?
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11198780 - 10/07/09 06:12 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Better try in a small scale first. By raising the PH you will have a higher risk of contamination plus the fermentation will restart and produce more CO2.
Assuming your WBS is mostly millet, it should work fine, though the small kernels will be hard to strain and stay very wet. Wheat as well as a mixture of wheat and WBS works best, pure rye may not ferment as good (my experience from sourdough) and rice always failed for me.
Good luck and please post your results!
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11213461 - 10/09/09 06:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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sure i will! I have weath =] Well now i only have to start petri dish work -.-'' For soem reason i cant manage to grow anything lately, everything gets contamed :/
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11225655 - 10/11/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very interesting stuff. Does the preboiling of the grains not kill off the bacteria? It was said not to use bleach as it would kill off the bacteria, how about H2O2? It would be great if no heating was required at all, making bulk far more easy.
Boiling the water will drive off the chlorine, but also has the advantage of driving off the oxygen. Homebrewers who boil their wort (unfermented dilute malt extract) will usually aerate the water afterwards, this can be done with vigorous stirring or an airstone, I used to use a strainer dipping it into the brew and holding it up allowing the water to drip out of the hundreds of holes.
So to keep the water oxygen free boiling is a good idea, and very gentle stirring. Somebody mentioned the balloon trick as an airlock, you can also have a piece of tubing going from the bung and just sitting in a glass of water. CO2 is denser than air and will form a layer on the surface of fermenting beer, I used to just plug up the bung hole with cotton wool.
I am interested in any more work on the cubes. I wonder if there is a way to get them more used to the fermented grains before adding it. Or what exactly is causing the delay. If it is adjusting to the pH then perhaps after fermenting some grains you could PC them and add spores. The ones that grow will probably do better on low pH grains in general. It was said the fermented grains have antibiotics so might resist the growth, so you might have to add myc to the sterile jar of fermented grain, or do G2G.
In homebrew shops you will get many nutrients, I wonder if they would be of benefit.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11226001 - 10/11/09 11:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Initially I did the preboiling step to prevent the grain kernels from germinating. Fermentation started anyway. Later I found boiling is not necessary at all. Soaking and covering with water is enough. If your water contains chlorine it may be good to boil it or let it sit for a day or two.
Complete absence of oxygen is also not necessary. I wonder if all those tricks with an airlock or covering with CO2 would favor other bacteria, which we don't want to grow.
Regarding Cubes, Spores and LC... sorry, but I get sick answering the same questions again and again. If you cube growers are too lazy to read or don't believe it, feel free to try and report.
Carsten
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11227121 - 10/11/09 02:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: If you cube growers are too lazy to read or don't believe it, feel free to try and report.
I will be trying it soon. I was hoping some others might have tried and not reported yet. I would like to hear success or failure. I have grains soaking in a strong bleach solution and they are bubbling a bit. There is white residue collecting in the bottom. I did this before reading this thread but I will try it without bleach too.
Oversoaking was mentioned, I have soaked wheat grains for many weeks before and upon calculation I always found they had slightly less than the recommended moisture levels.
I would imagine the addition of molasses would be a greater danger for other contams than the airlock. I have always heard warnings about sugar LCs and non-sterile substrates. In brewing beer/wine it also serves to keep out flies and bugs which are attracted to the fermenting brew. The oxygen promotes more yeast growth than alcohol production. Worts are aerated to ensure you get good yeast development at the start, not allowing other bacteria to get in first, once enough yeast is established you want to favour alcohol production, so do not aerate it anymore.
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M8M
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11228831 - 10/11/09 07:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very interesting procedure. Have you considered using corn silage as a medium? Fermented corn silage should have a pH between 3.8 and 4.2 with the following acid concentrations (% of Dry Matter): lactic acid >4.0%, acetic acid >1.5%, and propionic acid <0.1%. It is readily avaiable from almost any dairy farmer as it is a major livestock feed for dairy cattle.
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: M8M]
#11231449 - 10/12/09 04:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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good idea M8M, we gotta experiment with different substrates, which might have different PH. much in the same way as hay has a higher ph. can sawdust or wood chips be fermented in a similar fashion? this would be beautiful for all the woodloving shrooms!
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11231634 - 10/12/09 06:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said: I would imagine the addition of molasses would be a greater danger for other contams than the airlock. I have always heard warnings about sugar LCs and non-sterile substrates. In brewing beer/wine it also serves to keep out flies and bugs which are attracted to the fermenting brew. The oxygen promotes more yeast growth than alcohol production. Worts are aerated to ensure you get good yeast development at the start, not allowing other bacteria to get in first, once enough yeast is established you want to favour alcohol production, so do not aerate it anymore.
What you say about brewing is interesting. In my eyes, having the lid on the jar but not screwing it on tightly is the optimum. All other additions are unnecessary complications and favor contams. Lately we had a discussion about Clostridium botulinum, which made me wonder, if completely anaerobic conditions could be dangerous. We also want to avoid a buildup of alcohol.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: M8M]
#11231647 - 10/12/09 06:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
M8M said: Very interesting procedure. Have you considered using corn silage as a medium? Fermented corn silage should have a pH between 3.8 and 4.2 with the following acid concentrations (% of Dry Matter): lactic acid >4.0%, acetic acid >1.5%, and propionic acid <0.1%. It is readily avaiable from almost any dairy farmer as it is a major livestock feed for dairy cattle.
Yes, fermented corn should work as well as other types of grain. The numbers you mention match those of other fermented material, though the amount of acetic acid should not be higher.
The large kernels will make it easier to get rid of excess moisture.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (10/12/09 06:59 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11231679 - 10/12/09 07:11 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ddreamer said: can sawdust or wood chips be fermented in a similar fashion? this would be beautiful for all the woodloving shrooms!
No, not under water and not without a lot of oxygen. Look into aerated composting of wood chips with bran.
Carsten
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M8M
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11234679 - 10/12/09 05:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Corn silage is not just the grain, it is the entire corn plant, except the roots, chopped up like wood chips in the fall when the plant and grain has dried somewhat.(approx. 60-65% moisture content)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: M8M]
#11236170 - 10/12/09 09:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oops, I didn't read your post carefully. Corn silage should be fine, at least for Pleurotus ostreatus, pulmonarius and eryngii, which are definitely able to adapt to the low PH. As corn straw by itself has a higher nitrogen content, compared to wheat straw and as there is also some grain included, yields on corn silage should be higher than on fermented straw. The drawbacks are slower colonization, which would require more spawn plus the need for much more oxygen, which makes it harder to grow in large bags or tubes.
Carsten
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11264285 - 10/17/09 07:12 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just found an old grow log of mine here I had soaked a small amount of grains, just 20g of wheat, for a full week fully submerged. But did rinse 4 times with boiling water. They were inoculated with LC so I am not sure if spores would have been killed (i.e. if antibacterial substances were created during the soak time). After the week they were microwaved for only 25mins. It did fruit.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11264417 - 10/17/09 08:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is interesting. So washing and microwaving the grain after the fermentation seems to make colonization much easier for cube mycelium.
Now two question come to mind. Would it also work with larger amounts of grain and how long would it stay clean without inoculation?
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11264458 - 10/17/09 08:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: That is interesting. So washing and microwaving the grain after the fermentation seems to make colonization much easier for cube mycelium.
Now two question come to mind. Would it also work with larger amounts of grain and how long would it stay clean without inoculation?
Carsten
Second that! I have LC going on, i might try
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11264689 - 10/17/09 09:55 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:So washing and microwaving the grain after the fermentation seems to make colonization much easier for cube mycelium.
That log was really a microwave experiment and testing if all endospores would have germinated and allowed for a single killing of them without a pressure cooker. I am not sure if the grain did ferment. I remember doing several long soaks of grain in fully submerged water. I do remember some beginning to bubble and I considered this a bad thing at the time. I was rinsing with boiling or very hot water to keep the smell down, or to keep it "fresh". I cannot remember if that small jar bubbled much or fermented at all.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11265358 - 10/17/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, in your old grow log I found it 'did have a smell, sort of like fermenting', so there should have been some fermentation going on, though you might have kept it at a low level.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11274782 - 10/18/09 11:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey mycelio, I started this like 2 days ago and I have already signs of bacteria (bubbles etc.). Short question: After a week or two when the pH drops and you can already put a piece of myc. inside (in my case it will be liquid-culture) what should i do with the extra water that in the jar? I mean you can't just put it in the jar that contains water with the grains... strain it? Sorry if this question was already asked ^^
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11275622 - 10/19/09 03:58 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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maybe blackout isolated bad bacteria through the fermenting and readjusted the ph through the intensive rinsing and boling(in microw.). sounds like something could come out of this.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11275767 - 10/19/09 06:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dstark said: Hey mycelio, I started this like 2 days ago and I have already signs of bacteria (bubbles etc.). Short question: After a week or two when the pH drops and you can already put a piece of myc. inside (in my case it will be liquid-culture) what should i do with the extra water that in the jar? I mean you can't just put it in the jar that contains water with the grains... strain it? Sorry if this question was already asked ^^
Just see my very first post in this thread, where I described the whole procedure and why inoculating with LC usually won't work.
Didn't you want to try washing, straining and microwaving it?
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (10/19/09 06:28 AM)
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11275931 - 10/19/09 07:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Quote:
dstark said: Hey mycelio, I started this like 2 days ago and I have already signs of bacteria (bubbles etc.). Short question: After a week or two when the pH drops and you can already put a piece of myc. inside (in my case it will be liquid-culture) what should i do with the extra water that in the jar? I mean you can't just put it in the jar that contains water with the grains... strain it? Sorry if this question was already asked ^^
Just see my very first post in this thread, where I described the whole procedure and why inoculating with LC usually won't work.
Didn't you want to try washing, straining and microwaving it?
Carsten
I will still try using LC- the only live myc. form i have now, soon will start petri dishes.
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11276009 - 10/19/09 08:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well then I hope you have more luck. Please report whatever happens.
You'd have better chances if you first inoculate straw (pasteurized or fermented separately), cardboard or whatever you have and then layer the colonized material on top of the strained grain.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11276457 - 10/19/09 10:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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You say i can colonize cardboard using my LC and them transfer it yo the grains?! sounds nice. Any recommendation of tek or recipe? Sure i will report =]
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11277065 - 10/19/09 12:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I only cloned them on moist corrugated cardboard, which had some sort of starch glue, never tried it with LC though. No recipe, not tek, just moisten it, tear off one of the outer layers and inoculate the corrugated part.
Carsten
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11277423 - 10/19/09 01:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: Well, in your old grow log I found it 'did have a smell, sort of like fermenting', so there should have been some fermentation going on, though you might have kept it at a low level.
Yes! I missed that when I found the thread
Quote:
ddreamer said: maybe blackout isolated bad bacteria through the fermenting and readjusted the ph through the intensive rinsing and boling(in microw.).
I can remember now it was not a bad smell it was fermenting (I used to brew beer and it was sort of similar, I have smelt too many "bad bacterias" for my liking!). I may still have adjusted the pH but it could have been lowered still. RogerRabbit recommends soaking in coffee which is low pH. Perhaps the myc just likes lower pH as mentioned, and the coffee would not have not have antibacterial properties which might fill off spores. I did inoculate with LC, not spores. But notice I really did bombard it with LC, which results in rapid growth. I microwaved the grain until it was bone dry, this is drier than dry grains, and it was LC rehydrating them, it must get sucked deep into the grains.
I was looking for alternatives to a PC, ideally this technique of just fermenting and not heating would work. But if not (for cubes anyway) it is certainly worth more testing of heating after fermentation. The key point to all my microwave experiments is calculating and controlling moisture levels.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11278482 - 10/19/09 04:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Didn't realize that you dried that grain completely. So you killed all the microbes, destroyed a few antibiotics, dried and rehydrated with LC. Pretty clever and promising!
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11282689 - 10/20/09 08:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok update: the water above the grains became turbid and there is kind of a layer on the water which is yeast and i'm having hard time in removing it :/ the yeast smells not very good.
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11283635 - 10/20/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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As long as the grain still produces bubbles, it should be OK.
Use a clean spoon and go on removing the yeast film from the surface every other day and add water if necessary, so the kernels won't be exposed to air. In general, open the lid only if absolutely necessary, you don't want much air exchange.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11288747 - 10/20/09 10:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have the lid slightly opened =] Thanks mycelio.
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11288835 - 10/20/09 10:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just removed the film of yeast, doesnt smell good at all... but there is some sort of smell that reminds kind of fruits or something. Pics for you mycelio.
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11289418 - 10/21/09 12:21 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh, there's also a lot of yeast growing in the water. Probably caused by too much oxygen. You better rinse the grain, fill it into a much smaller container, add enough water to cover the kernels and close the lid. If it still smells bad after a few days, throw it away. The smell should be sour with a fruity note, like sourdough.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11291186 - 10/21/09 10:52 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thnaks mate =] I'll keep posting
Edit: Ok so i washed the grains in a strainer and put them in new container with water to just cover them. Then i completely closed the lid.
Question: Is there any way to increase the lactic acid bacteria population or give it any kind of boost?
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
Edited by dstark (10/21/09 11:04 AM)
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11304419 - 10/23/09 04:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok bubbles, the water is turned only little bit not transparent, and some kind of smell lol!
so whats up with my questions mycelium?
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11305989 - 10/23/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dstark said: ... Question: Is there any way to increase the lactic acid bacteria population or give it any kind of boost?
When using materials, that won't ferment easily, one can add sugar as a food source or citric acid to lower the PH. For grain this won't make sense.
Once you have a healthy fermentation going on, you can inoculate the next one with a few drops of fermentation water or a few kernels.
Carsten
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Doc_T
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11323823 - 10/26/09 11:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dstark said: Question: Is there any way to increase the lactic acid bacteria population or give it any kind of boost?
Lactobacillus is common available and easy to buy. I bet you could culture it and add it easily.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Doc_T]
#11335582 - 10/27/09 11:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah i know, they are present in yogurts, thought about adding some to the grains but i guess it would raise the chances for contam...
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11336546 - 10/28/09 05:21 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are dozens of Lactobacillus species. The ones that ferment milk are useless with grain. If you really want to buy microbes that are present everywhere, look for sourdough starter.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11337919 - 10/28/09 11:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well the grains are doing much batter now Carsten! there are bubbles and almost no yeast film + the water is pretty clear.
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11344518 - 10/29/09 10:53 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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That sounds good. I guess it is ready within a few days.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11350625 - 10/30/09 08:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ill post a pic very soon Some grains start to float so i remove them.
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11356326 - 10/31/09 08:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I was thinking to stop floating grains you could put them in a bag with a few small holes in it, so water would seep into the bag but stop them rising.
Also this might allow for cleaner handling afterwards, just lift the bag up and it will drain itself. The filter on my autoclave bags is far too restrictive to allow air in easily but I do have other larger filter disks which allow free travel of air. I could have a large bag of grain with a large filter on top, lift the bag out and the water pours out, and clean filtered air is drawn into it. It might be better to have just one hole. You could even fill the bag first with water and have an injection silicone port at the bottom, then stick a needle in and wait for it to drain naturally.
I have drained off some bleaching grains I had in a PET bottle, they still look too wet, not like they are overcooked/soaked, just the surfaces are wet, I was thinking of heating them lightly, like to 50C just to try and get them to absorb the moisture. I have the cap on and opened it slightly and the smell seems OK.
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11367855 - 11/02/09 09:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lol i took a photo and forgot to post :/ sorry for quality again ;(
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11373185 - 11/02/09 10:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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The water is so much darker now, not the yeasty darkness but the kind of the grain was sitting to much in water... I think it is ready now?! Question: Can i strain it, and than freeze it? i will have a petri culture going on only the next week or so, so i wounder how i can store the grains =]
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11375718 - 11/03/09 09:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, it should be ready by now.
When freezing, there will be ice crystals breaking the cell walls. Don't know if this will be good or bad.
As you are not working with a Pleurotus species, I recommend you dry the kernels in a microwave or oven, like Blackout described. Once dried and cooled down, you can store it for a long time. If you still plan to inoculate with LC, dry kernels will be better anyway.
Carsten
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11377302 - 11/03/09 02:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Be very careful with the microwave, it can go on fire or burn. Keep stirring to stop hot/cold spots, an oven is probably better. Here is a thread on how hot it gets in a microwave.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4327704#4327704
In this thread I grew on burnt grains, http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4649222#4649222
Which worked surprisingly well.
The freezing gives me another idea, as a way to expand the grain, leaving it more like a sponge to soak up LC, or liquidised shrooms. Roasting also increases the volume like a sponge. If they were dried out they might still contain the antibiotics. At the end of a grow you could liquidise up a shroom or 2 and dump it on your now dry grain which it might suck up and colonise in no time.
I just defrosted some grains the other day and they did tend to explode a lot more during cooking, they were wet before, I think only partially soaking might have been better.
Edited by blackout (11/03/09 02:17 PM)
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11382354 - 11/04/09 09:04 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have a LC going on but i don't know what would be more preferable, LC or myc. tissue, i guess myc. tissue but i don't have any agar work going on for now so... I'll experiment with my LC- also will see if it is still viable for use
So as i understood: Put it in some kind of glass jar, put in oven- [What temps?] until they are dry and inoculate with LC (of course after they have been cooled down xD). Should i strain it before i put in oven or put it with the whole load of water it has? O.o 1 more question poped in my head: We do all this process to drop the pH, after drying out the water and putting LC the pH will go up again (LC is pretty basic)... What you think?!
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
Edited by dstark (11/04/09 09:07 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11384716 - 11/04/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'd strain and put the kernels as a thin layer on a plate or something flat. Regarding the temperature, Blackout used a pretty high setting. Anything above 65°C (pasteurization temp) will kill most of the microbes, but perhaps you better use something between 100 and 200°C to stay closer to Blackouts successful treatment.
And yes, the PH may rise, but that possibly makes it easier for your cube mycelium.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11388006 - 11/04/09 10:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok so i decided not to risk the project and start now agar plates work... will be using myc. tissue. You say i can preserve it by drying, but when i have a agar plates ready how do I dehydrate the grains?
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11389785 - 11/05/09 09:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dstark said: Ok so i decided not to risk the project and start now agar plates work... will be using myc. tissue.
Alright.
Quote:
dstark said: You say i can preserve it by drying, but when i have a agar plates ready how do I dehydrate the grains?
What is 'it'? Do you really mean dehydrate or rehydrate?
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11389927 - 11/05/09 10:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Quote:
dstark said: Ok so i decided not to risk the project and start now agar plates work... will be using myc. tissue.
Alright.
Quote:
dstark said: You say i can preserve it by drying, but when i have a agar plates ready how do I dehydrate the grains?
What is 'it'? Do you really mean dehydrate or rehydrate?
Carsten
Sorry mispelled, I ment rehydrate, like making it with water again So how do I ? =]
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11390486 - 11/05/09 11:52 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just add water and wait a few hours. If your LC proves to be clean, I'd soak the grain in there.
Carsten
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11395004 - 11/05/09 11:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok! So ill start agar work today or in a few days - have a work, hardly find a minute to breath... I will strain and dry it out in oven today
Thanks for all the help Carsten!
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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blackout
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11403726 - 11/07/09 10:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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When I was rehydrating my grains I added a little LC, I have always had problems with contams with over wet grains. Then after a few days I added more LC, this was all in sterile conditions though.
I am currently growing PE cubensis on PC'd grain which was quite dry, the growth was slow to take off and I have since added more and more water to it and it is really taking off. I like this idea since it means the myc can take hold on the semi-dry grain and form its own defences, then I add more and more water later.
I am not sure if I would add grain to an excess of LC to soak, LC's are usually said to be prone to contams. My reasoning for adding a little LC is that the grains will suck the moisture out of the LC, leaving the myc strands on the surface of the grains.
I would not like the idea of sugars at all. You could have a proper PC'd master jar of colonised grain and inject sterile water shake and suck up myc so there is no sugar involved.
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c-ray
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: blackout]
#11432011 - 11/11/09 09:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have some experience with sourdough and was thinking I might make a sourdough culture using flour from the same type of grain as the type to be fermented, then use the sourdough as a seed to kickstart the fermentation of the whole grains. Will let y'all know how it goes.
Also in keeping with the thread title I read recently that in the philippines and indonesia where they don't have access to fancy pc's they are just using a 55 gallon drum with some water at the bottom and a simple wire shelf to keep the sub bags out of the water. They light a fire under the barrel and boil the bags in the barrel for 8-12 hours. They claim that the grains are altered less in this way, less damaged, and that they are able to get more flushes.
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dstark
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: c-ray]
#11432270 - 11/11/09 10:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Welcome to the shroomery buddy Experimenting is
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: dstark]
#11905352 - 01/26/10 01:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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hey Mycelio i'm giving your method a try with straw, so far it's colonizing really slowly, the grain spawn i mixed in is making fuzzballs but it doesn't really colonize the straw, is just sticks to the straw around that touches it but doesn't travel/invade the straw.
is this due to ph? my temps are quite low but should be good enough with time (been 2 weeks by now) it smells ok and healthy. i let the straw soak for 1 weak outside in water with cold weather.
is this normal? can i expect the colonization to improve at any point?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11905503 - 01/26/10 01:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hi, if I ferment straw, I keep it submerged for 10 to 14 days at room temperature. After one week in the cold, the fermentation process won't be finished, but that is usually no problem.
What you describe, sounds like ongoing fermentation and not enough oxygen for the mycelium. If available, lactic acid bacteria and yeast use a lot of oxygen, so you better increase FAE. As it still smells OK, your chances are high, that the mycelium will take over soon.
Carsten
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#11909593 - 01/27/10 01:23 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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ok i'll try fanning once a day, will this trigger fruiting ? i doubt it as it isn't fully colonized
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ddreamer
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ddreamer]
#11909695 - 01/27/10 02:08 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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today colonization is looking better already! if bacteria uses up oxygen this should be good as colonization thrieves off CO2, although air exchange might still be beneficial.
Edited by ddreamer (01/27/10 02:56 AM)
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grischnackh
Registered: 11/29/09
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking *DELETED* [Re: Mycelio]
#12285582 - 03/27/10 10:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by grischnackhReason for deletion: /
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: grischnackh]
#12285752 - 03/27/10 11:49 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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So you added an oyster mushroom to something and it went green... You need to give way more details, if you expect advice.
Carsten
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grischnackh
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking *DELETED* [Re: Mycelio]
#12285879 - 03/28/10 12:42 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by grischnackhReason for deletion: /
Edited by grischnackh (03/28/10 12:43 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: grischnackh]
#12286112 - 03/28/10 02:27 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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All steps seem to be correct, though I wouldn't rinse mushroom pieces. If you want to clean them, you can pull off a thin layer from the outside.
Anyway, if kernels turn green after three days, mold must have been growing there before inoculation. Did you notice lots of floating kernels during fermentation? Those ones often catch or hide mold, which survives at the surface. The last times I removed all the swimmers.
Carsten
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grischnackh
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking *DELETED* [Re: Mycelio]
#12286128 - 03/28/10 02:34 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by grischnackhReason for deletion: /
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c-ray
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: grischnackh]
#12420799 - 04/19/10 01:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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according to this patent they are growing mushrooms from ensilaged (fermented) corn stalks
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20090430&CC=MD&NR=3873F1&KC=F1
Quote:
The invention refers to biotechnology, particularly to a process for cultivation of mushroom Pleurotus ostreatus (JACQ.:FR) KUMM. - producer of carpophores and can be applied in mushroom growing. The proposed process includes preparation of the nutrient substrate from corn vegetal mass, inoculation thereof with mushroom culture, incubation and growing. At the same time as vegetal mass are used corn stems which are subjected to lactic-acid fermentation by ensilage in trenches, and before inoculation the substrate is drawn out from the trenches and kept in bulk during 2...3 days, afterwards to the mass is added 5...6% of calcium sulphate and incubation of substrate is carried out at the temperature of 19...25 degree C, and growing is carried out at the temperature of 12...16 degree C, the humidity of 80...90% and lighting of 50...100 lx during 12 hours/day.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: c-ray]
#12436693 - 04/22/10 09:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nice find. It seems they used green corn straw without submerging in water, but probably covered with plastic foil. I have grown Pearl, King, Phoenix and Elm oysters on fermented wheat and corn straw several times and I am sure more types of agricultural wastes are suited. The addition of high nitrogen supplements like alfalfa or coffee grounds is also possible, though you better add them after three days, when the lactic acid fermentation already started.
Carsten
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14107469 - 03/12/11 04:43 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
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I like this tek, Mycelio. Thank you for opening this thread, it's really useful. I think everybody should know that is possible to grow some mushrooms without using a pressure cooker, a glove box...and so on. Useful for a beginner like me, a lazy cultivator, and why not, an expert cultivator who wants to try something new. I'm trying this tek with pleurotus ostreatus, bought at supermarket, complying with your instruction, as written in the first post.
3 jars with kernels of oats incubated at room temperatures, started 15 days ago. 1 jar seems going well, the others have some problems.
I would like to do some questions:
- Have you noticed any differences utilizing market oysters rather than mushrooms that you have cultivated ? I'm asking this cause in one jar the growing seems to be stopped, suddenly. Could the senescence of the tissue be the problem? - In another jar, one little green mold is appeared yesterday. Can i save somehow this jar? Is there any chance that the market oyster could overcome the mold? - Have you never tried to put some stem butts not only upon the surface, but also in the middle of the jar , between the kernels? Maybe this could speed up the colonization but the tissue can rot. - In one month a very tasty mushroom will make his appearance. Coprinus Comatus. Have you had good results with Shaggy Mane? And as far as the pioppino? Agrocybe Aegerita?
-------------------- Tell me and i forget. Teach me and i remember. Involve me and i learne.(Benjamin Franklin)
Edited by ILBIACCO (03/12/11 04:46 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14118612 - 03/14/11 09:47 AM (13 years, 8 days ago) |
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Hi ILBIACCO,
Quote:
ILBIACCO said: - Have you noticed any differences utilizing market oysters rather than mushrooms that you have cultivated ? I'm asking this cause in one jar the growing seems to be stopped, suddenly. Could the senescence of the tissue be the problem?
In all my tries I have never encountered senescence, but sometimes store bought mushrooms are old and already dieing, so it might take longer and initial mycelium growth might be weak or contaminated.
Quote:
ILBIACCO said: - In another jar, one little green mold is appeared yesterday. Can i save somehow this jar? Is there any chance that the market oyster could overcome the mold?
Depending on the mold species, it's not impossible, but unlikely. Your jar is already full of mold spores, so at least separate it from the others.
Quote:
ILBIACCO said: - Have you never tried to put some stem butts not only upon the surface, but also in the middle of the jar , between the kernels? Maybe this could speed up the colonization but the tissue can rot.
I did, but it does not work. There is not enough oxygen below the surface.
Quote:
ILBIACCO said: - In one month a very tasty mushroom will make his appearance. Coprinus Comatus. Have you had good results with Shaggy Mane? And as far as the pioppino? Agrocybe Aegerita?
I only tried C.c. a few times where most of them died. A.a. might work better.
Carsten
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14129413 - 03/16/11 07:43 AM (13 years, 6 days ago) |
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Ciao Mycelio. Thank you for the answers.
I will be happy to do an attempt with Pioppino, as soon as i will find it in the wild. I don't think to have to wait too much time. I'll bring you up to date.
As far as coprinus comatus, probably, the environment inside the jar with fermented grain is too wet and the stem rots. What a shame! Therefore i think that to create spawn for outdoor beds i'll put the Shaggy mane stem butts between pieces of dump cardboard.
But you Mycelio, had you never have green mold inside a jar with fermented stuff? And so far what has given you the best results? Oat, wheat, corn, straw...
-------------------- Tell me and i forget. Teach me and i remember. Involve me and i learne.(Benjamin Franklin)
Edited by ILBIACCO (03/17/11 05:17 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14130487 - 03/16/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 6 days ago) |
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Yes, also some of my experiments went green, but only when the inoculated material had been moldy before. When working with parts of outdoor mushrooms or store bought and old ones, make sure there is no dirt on them. Perhaps peel off some outer tissue and consider placing them on cardboard or a tiny amount of straw or sawdust first. It works best, if you can cover the fermented grain with a layer of colonized material.
The easiest type of grain is wheat, as it is the easiest to start sourdough with. I often mixed it with rye, oats or millet, which worked fine too. Only pure rice once failed completely.
For the Coprinus, I remember it was the fastest mycelium on fermented straw, even faster than any pleurotus. Just take care to press out excess water after the fermentation, it must not be soggy and wet.
Carsten
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14135343 - 03/17/11 05:47 AM (13 years, 6 days ago) |
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Ok. I have already had experiences of growing utilizing cardboard. In this moment a big wood (poplar), cut in two pieces with cardboard spawn in the middle, it is producing some little oysters at my home. Perhaps, if i obtain some decent fruits i will post some pics.
As far bought and wild mushrooms, your idea to bypass the dirt seems very interesting. I could peel off a big piece of market oyster (in the wild i'm not able to find this mush )put on cardboard and then lay it upon the fermented grains. I will do this experiment with a corn fermented jar who is almost ready.(The fermentation is started one week ago).
Thanks for the advices.
-------------------- Tell me and i forget. Teach me and i remember. Involve me and i learne.(Benjamin Franklin)
Edited by ILBIACCO (03/17/11 06:03 AM)
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14300264 - 04/16/11 10:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I've found an handful of Black Poplar mushroom in the wild three days ago, and i've placed them in a fermented corn jar. Afterwards i've set a piece of wet cardboard on the mushrooms to see if A.Aegerita also will grow on this substrate . So far the experiment seems going well and the mushrooms have started to grow. But it's still too early...
Greetings.
Edited by ILBIACCO (04/16/11 10:13 AM)
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Lennybernadino
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14300667 - 04/16/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just posting so this shw up in my threads, nothing ueseful to say just being selfhish and all .
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14302035 - 04/16/11 04:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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At least you didn't post that annoying 'I have nothing to add' image.
@ILBIACCO Good luck! All the A. aegeritas I tried didn't like cardboard, but were able to colonize fermenting areas in grain jars. In case of problems, colonizing some hardwood sawdust and then covering the fermented corn with the sawdust should be the easiest way.
Carsten
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drosmoka
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14308863 - 04/17/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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very interesting the way this works although i don't think i'll use this soon
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: drosmoka]
#14310471 - 04/18/11 04:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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You're right Carsten. Utilizing sawdust it's more easy to avoid the problem of rot tissue, that i've just had with oysters in my last fermented grains jars. I'll do a try with the sawdust in the next weeks. For the moment, i've interrupted my Ostreatus experiments and now i'm focussed on Aegerita, by far one of my favourite edible mushrooms, but only after Agaricus Campester and his brothers, A.Arvensis, A.Macrosporus... Yeah. I know it. I'm an weird italian guy, considering that here people love porcino madly (B.Aereus, B.Edulis...) and most of the mushroom hunters collect only it.
Thanks. I need all the luck of the world.
Edited by ILBIACCO (04/18/11 05:38 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14310608 - 04/18/11 06:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ILBIACCO said:
Yeah. I know it. I'm an weird italian guy, considering that here people love porcino madly (B.Aereus, B.Edulis...) and most of the mushroom hunters collect only it.
Us weird Americans like boletes too. I can't walk past one in the woods without stopping to get it. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14312424 - 04/18/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ciao Roger. Yep. I like boletes, especially the Fabulous Four (not from Liverpool ) ,B.Aereus, Edulis, Reticulatus and Pinicola, called "porcini" in Italy. They are choice mushrooms and very enjoyable to seek out in the woods. But i am truly weird... as compared with the other italian mushroom hunters. While the most of them are crazy for these mushrooms, i prefer to look for Agaricus spp. If i am in the wood searching for boletes and i meet someone who says: "listen to me, up there, on top of that hill there is a pasture full of horse mushrooms" i flee the forest and i run like hell towards the grassland.
Update.I've checked my pioppino jar. Well. The stem butts are, how can i say, very "fuzzy" and they are sticking to the cardboard and the grains but the growth seems very slow.
Edited by ILBIACCO (09/16/11 06:23 AM)
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Lennybernadino
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14328299 - 04/21/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I used to get a lot of B. Barrowsi in New Mexico, made me a lot of moeny one year so its deffinitely my favorite(the white one) ok something to add ON SUBJECT even.... i am going to grab the solid asexual spore chunks in my overmature Volveriella volvacae grain spawns, and try throwing them in this fermented grain stuff. The reason : It may be a way to get around the Trich problems I am having and I am intending to introduce mushroom cultivation to this part of the Amazon in a poor third world country, the less technology the better , Also If I can grab these asexual spore chunks and find a better way to deal with them and avoid increasing Trich contamination I could theoreticly have an infinitely expanding Grain spawn lineage wich will NEVER senesce so I will give it a try and let everyone know and well I may never post a picture though jER
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14328602 - 04/21/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Interesting. According to literature, V.v. mycelium should be able to grow at a PH between 3 and 4, only slower than usual. Please keep us updated.
BTW: I just found large zip-lock bags make much better fermentation containers than jars. You fill in your fermentation material plus water, press out all the air, close and from time to time you let out CO2, if necessary. This way there is no surface, having contact with outside air, so no unwanted growth of yeasts on top will happen, while floating kernels can't catch mold.
Carsten
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Lennybernadino
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14350083 - 04/25/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I just filled the ziplocks today, I decided that I am going to balance out the PH in some of the grain to see if it is some reason other than the PH that is limiting contaminants we shall see what happens in two weeks or so . jEr
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aris
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14353927 - 04/26/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14359958 - 04/27/11 08:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lennybernadino said: I just filled the ziplocks today, I decided that I am going to balance out the PH in some of the grain to see if it is some reason other than the PH that is limiting contaminants we shall see what happens in two weeks or so . jEr
In my understanding, there is a competition of various species going on in the first days of fermentation. The dropping PH should be important for the lactic acid bacteria to keep their competitors from multiplying, though they also produce small amounts of antibacterial substances as well as some H2O2. I'm pretty sure the PH prevents mold spores from germinating after the fermentation.
In case you are using straw as the base substrate, you may also try to ferment that straw. It usually ends up with a PH between 5 and 6. I'm currently testing straw, which has been fermented together with grain, alfalfa and coffee grounds (10% each, alfalfa and coffee added after the fermentation got strong), which ended up with PH 4. Covering that stuff with substrate spawn of various Pleurotus species works fine, while mixing don't. I only see growth at the surface, where the mycelium gets enough fresh air.
Carsten
PS: When fermienting in sealed bags, there is very little production of CO2, which is fine.
Edited by Mycelio (04/27/11 08:14 AM)
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Lennybernadino
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14361785 - 04/27/11 03:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It occured to me that here in the tropics fermentation happens quite a bit faster then your part of the world, after the first night I could detect the sour smell, today the ph is at 4.3 nore or less it seems all is going as it should, something has come in the night and bit a tiny hole in one bag each night, so I switched containers , a few quart jars and a big covered bucket .
I may work with straw but all the rice growers are across a river from me so I will have to bring he spawn to the straw when i am ready, right now I am working with shredded palm heart waste wich is composted a few days or a week or so(I take the hot shit and pasteurize it), I got the first ones kinda wrong but the last one right but I think the yield on this substrate is not very good, I will find out for sure when the last one that I got right fruits. I am going to start experimenting with sacha-inchi hulls, Sacha inchi is a local super food . These hulls are deffinitely more nutritios and I will deffinitely try fermenting them. looks like I will be able to inoculate soon jEr
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Alkaloids
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14361924 - 04/27/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I've been intrigued by the idea of competitive exclusion for a while mycelio. Excellent thread and i look forward to adding some of my own thoughts and findings in time. Thank you to all the contributors.
--------------------
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14362826 - 04/27/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lennybernadino said: It occured to me that here in the tropics fermentation happens quite a bit faster then your part of the world, after the first night I could detect the sour smell, today the ph is at 4.3 nore or less it seems all is going as it should, something has come in the night and bit a tiny hole in one bag each night, so I switched containers , a few quart jars and a big covered bucket.
Right, we have lower temps, less humidity, less microbes and less hole biting somethings here. Your fermentation will go much faster, perhaps 5 to 7 days will be enough then. Just check the smell each day. It starts sweet sour and towards the end you should notice some vinegar component getting stronger.
Quote:
Lennybernadino said:I may work with straw but all the rice growers are across a river from me so I will have to bring he spawn to the straw when i am ready, right now I am working with shredded palm heart waste wich is composted a few days or a week or so(I take the hot shit and pasteurize it), I got the first ones kinda wrong but the last one right but I think the yield on this substrate is not very good, I will find out for sure when the last one that I got right fruits. I am going to start experimenting with sacha-inchi hulls, Sacha inchi is a local super food . These hulls are deffinitely more nutritios and I will deffinitely try fermenting them. looks like I will be able to inoculate soon jEr
Fascinating. Do you also test Pleurotus species? Sajor-Caju or pink oysters do exceptionally well on pasteurized or fermented substrates.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Alkaloids]
#14362842 - 04/27/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alkaloids said: I've been intrigued by the idea of competitive exclusion for a while mycelio. Excellent thread and i look forward to adding some of my own thoughts and findings in time. Thank you to all the contributors.
Thats nice to read, thank you too!
Carsten
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Lennybernadino
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14373470 - 04/29/11 04:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Testing the Ph this morning it is right at 4 maybe a little less so tomorrow mornig I am going to drain and inoculate . I am going to try three species, Straw mushrooms of course, some Oyster mushroom (ostreatus) that my frines has some FP plug spawn of, and Cubensis from a experiment I did using the palm heart waste, it grew aggresively at first but the sunbstrate was poorly drained and I had to make a small hole in one of the corners after I noticed, where the access water drained away . well the bag coloonized quickly except that last corner wich stoped the mycelium for a while then it got used to it and colonized the last corner. my theory is that the last corner had a bacterial colony that was giving the cube trouble so this cube I have has already dealt with having to adjust to a bacterial rich lower Ph environment wich may help ease the shock of being put in a more bacterial rich lower ph environment . I have a hard time limiting myself to three species! but everytime I do too much new things at the same time everything fails and all I end up learning is that I should not do so much at once . Anyway I look foward to seeing what happens I am really excited about trying this technique, this really could be the thing that makes it possible to teach local farmers to grow mushrooms in the Amazon . I grew the pink Oysters on coconut fiber with good results but I have lost all my pink cultures since then, in my make shift Labratoy nwith way too many climatic variations it is hard to store cultures but I am soon going to be working with a much better Lab setup . Have you ever tried reishi with fermented substrate/spawn ?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#14374184 - 04/29/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, never grew Reishi myself. I think it would be great if you could find and teach a way to grow mushrooms on fermented local material without the need for a heat treatment.
Here is a picture of oyster mycelium growing into the above mentioned fermented supplemented straw pellets, also at PH 4. It took twice as long to start growing in and it grows with half speed, but incredibly dense.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (04/29/11 07:06 PM)
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Alkaloids
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14389431 - 05/02/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The thought occurred to me that a easy way to provide anaerobic conditions would be to layer some oil on top of the water in which the grain is soaking and fermenting. I've done this before for solutions and chemicals that require a buffer from atmospheric oxygen. Since oils are ubiquitous there should be food grade oils available anywhere humans are. The oil could be decanted after fermentation is done to be re-used as well.
In theory this should also stop yeast from gaining a foothold as well.
Had anyone here tried this? I didn't noticed any mention of it when i read through the thread.
Another idea that came to mind is an amalgam of mycelio and quickpick's thoughts. It seems that, since this fermentation is based off of lactobaccilli spp., that by starting the fermentation with a concentrated lac b solution might impart some benefits. In terms of excluding competitor organisms having a concentrated lac b serum (derived from isolation using the milk technique) would all, but guarantee that pathogens would show up in numbers large enough to be troubling.
There are some other ideas i had, but they are missing in action. When i remember them i'll write some more. I'm interested in experimenting with this and when i start up i'll document it and add some data to this thread.
Lennybernadino i like your idea of acclimating the mycelium to it's new home. This seems like it should help the mushroom mycelium become generally more adatable.
Mycelio Have you noticed any differences in the fruitbodies coming from mycelium grown in fermented versus non-fermented substrates? That mycelium there looks very healthy
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Alkaloids]
#14390191 - 05/02/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, I never noticed any difference in the fruitbodies.
Covering with oil should work, but it sounds unnecessarily messy. For me, fermentation in zip-lock bags is the easiest way and I never lower the PH, nor do I add any starter culture, as all the species we need are already present on grain or straw. If you think you should add something, look for sourdough starter. Whenever you try the first time, I heavily recommend fermenting small amounts and not to change too much.
Carsten
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14393649 - 05/03/11 09:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ILBIACCO said: Update.I've checked my pioppino jar. Well. The stem butts are, how can i say, very "fuzzy" and they are sticking to the cardboard and the grains but the growth seems very slow.
New update. Yes. Pioppino can grow on cardboard. The growth is not in any way comparable to the cardboard lover mushrooms, like oysters for example, but i can say that A.aegerita stem butt can slowly colonize a piece of cardboard. While as far as the fermented corn, pioppino mycelium is still sticking on grains but i can't see a downright growth yet after two weeks from the beginning, and the mushrooms are rotting.
Ten days ago, i've started another jar with pioppino on fermented straw. It seems going well so far and if all goes as planned i will utilize only straw in the future. Probably, the very low ph (4 with the grains) is a real problem for my mushrooms. But, as we say in Italy, "una rondine non fa primavera", ("one swallow does not make a summer"?) I have still so many things to experiment...
Thanks Lenny. B.Barrowsii was unknown to me.
Mycelio, the ziplock bags idea is very interesting. This forum is as a lighthouse in the stormy sea of mushroom cultivation.
-------------------- Tell me and i forget. Teach me and i remember. Involve me and i learne.(Benjamin Franklin)
Edited by ILBIACCO (09/16/11 06:25 AM)
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Alkaloids
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14394192 - 05/03/11 12:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: No, I never noticed any difference in the fruitbodies.
Covering with oil should work, but it sounds unnecessarily messy. For me, fermentation in zip-lock bags is the easiest way and I never lower the PH, nor do I add any starter culture, as all the species we need are already present on grain or straw. If you think you should add something, look for sourdough starter. Whenever you try the first time, I heavily recommend fermenting small amounts and not to change too much.
Carsten
I start with lactobacillus cultures that i cultivate from the local environment/air. So, in essence, i am starting with something similar to wild sourdough starter cultures. I have so much faith in my lac b serums and any resulting by-products that i eat/ingest them. It's really quite good for intestinal health. Useful for resolving digestive irregularities as well. The reason i suggest oil is simply to provide more possible avenues to do the fermentation. As a rule i avoid plastics as much as i can. Not to mention that in many places getting plastic goods can be quite difficult or expensive.
I won't be doing giant batches as trials. Slow and easy
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14398599 - 05/04/11 07:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hi Ilbiacco,
your Pioppino observations are very interesting, especially as you have a strain that grows on fermented straw. It should have a PH of ca. 5.5, so it's much easier for the mycelium.
There is this old story about Italians growing Pioppino large scale on fermented corn straw, which I never believed. Could you do a quick web search in Italian, to see if you can find any hints? The only reference I found so far came from stamets and could be pure fantasy, like the commercial cultivation of Parasols in Europe.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Alkaloids]
#14398634 - 05/04/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hi Alkaloids,
you are totally correct in avoiding plastic, as long as it gets produced from mineral oil! At least I can reuse those bags after fermentation.
Please keep us updated if you try the oil variant!
Carsten
PS: You may also look into the lactic acid fermentation of vegetables.
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14403557 - 05/05/11 03:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said: ...There is this old story about Italians growing Pioppino large scale on fermented corn straw, which I never believed. Could you do a quick web search in Italian, to see if you can find any hints? The only reference I found so far came from stamets and could be pure fantasy, like the commercial cultivation of Parasols in Europe.
Carsten
Ciao Mycelio, i find nothing about it. I think you're right. Probably it's only fantasy, but if i find something in future i will post it immediatly.
Parasol? Macrolepiota Procera? Cultivated for commercial purpose? I've never heard anything concerning this. But, why not? it could be an hot item, a real business. Here in Italy it's a well-known and very appreciated mushroom. One might think to produce mycelium beginning from stem butts on fermented straw...
-------------------- Tell me and i forget. Teach me and i remember. Involve me and i learne.(Benjamin Franklin)
Edited by ILBIACCO (05/05/11 03:54 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14404121 - 05/05/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thank you for searching!
And yes, I meant M. procera. There have been a few professional cultivation attempts decades ago, but I think fruiting was unreliable, while indoor fruits looked terrible. Even blocks, that have been buried outdoor, often won't produce.
Carsten
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slssurvivor
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14439928 - 05/12/11 12:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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hey mycelio i was reading your tek and it sounds really really promising. I got confused with all the comments on carbon sources and adding yeast. what i was thinking of doing is following your tek using straw for cubes. I was gonna take a 5 gallon bucket fill it half way with straw cut into 3 inch pieces, fill wit water and just wait the 1-2 weeks as described stirring daily. to aviod floaters i was going to put netting over the straw and weight it down. Do i need too cook the straw and if so how do i know when it is cooked enough? will adding half a quart of cube mycelium spawned in wbs work when added to the straw? Any other advice or tweeks such as heat or that bulk mollasses work to make the process go faster, and is it worth it?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: slssurvivor]
#14440540 - 05/12/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hey slssurvivor,
Quote:
slssurvivor said: hey mycelio i was reading your tek and it sounds really really promising. I got confused with all the comments on carbon sources and adding yeast. what i was thinking of doing is following your tek using straw for cubes. I was gonna take a 5 gallon bucket fill it half way with straw cut into 3 inch pieces, fill wit water and just wait the 1-2 weeks as described stirring daily. to avoid floaters i was going to put netting over the straw and weight it down. Do i need too cook the straw and if so how do i know when it is cooked enough?
Just use pure, uncooked straw, but please start a small jar first, to test if your straw is fresh and clean enough. In case it had been wet before, it may not ferment on its own. If you see bubbles after some days, it is fine. Then you can safely start the bucked and pour in the jar as starter culture. Keeping the straw below the surface is a good idea, people also use pillow sheets, onion bags and so on. Try to minimize the surface, which is exposed to air.
Quote:
slssurvivor said: will adding half a quart of cube mycelium spawned in wbs work when added to the straw?
To the whole bucket? I would not go below 10% spawn (by weight).
Quote:
slssurvivor said: Any other advice or tweeks such as heat or that bulk mollasses work to make the process go faster, and is it worth it?
Cubes are not as acid tolerant as Pleurotus species, so avoid adding carbohydrates like sugar, starch, bran or grain. This would lead to a much stronger fermentation, ending up at PH 4 instead of 5.5. A warm place helps, but heating is not worth the hassle. Once, you're successful, you can try adding coffee grounds or alfalfa to increase nitrogen content without lowering the PH.
For me, the easiest way is fermenting pelletized straw in ziplock bags.
Carsten
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slssurvivor
Mack
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14446590 - 05/13/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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alright thanks man do the ziplock bags help keep the straw submerged? I put a piece of tinfoil over the straw in the jar and a rock on top of that to keep it down, but any slight movement brings more pieces of straw to the top, so if i have to stir the jar everyday thats gonna be a problem any suggestions?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: slssurvivor]
#14446681 - 05/13/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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If you can keep everything submerged, you don't have to stir. Just remove floating pieces.
When using ziplock bags you press out all the air, seal it and just wait. This way everything stays wet and without contact to fresh air.
Carsten
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