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Invisiblespacel0rd
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Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 210
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8809379 - 08/22/08 02:41 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Carsten, you mentioned one needs more spawn than with sterile, non-fermented substrate. Can you give examples like: for a 1-2 pint jar with *** grains xxx works, for a 10 liter bucket of straw xxx spawn works.
And also how much does that depend on the species one intends to grow?
I guess a few ml of LC wouldn't work on fermented grain jars, like they would on "normal" ones?

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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
    #8809683 - 08/22/08 06:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Spacel0rd,


I think 1 pint is 568 ml. The jars I used so far were a bit smaller than 1 pint, filled half with fermented grain and inoculated either by mushroom stems or by one or two tablespoons of colonized straw/wood chips/sterile grain spawn by putting one piece on top. It seems to be better to have a large chunk of mycelium with contact to air than using tiny fragments. Once fully colonized you can do G2G by mixing some grain with freshly fermented material.
With fermented straw it is easier for the mycelium. It will start from small pieces and can be mixed into the straw. Spawn at least with 5% inoculum.
Can't say how it would work with LCs. In fermented grain it might die.

And yes, it depends on the species. I had no success with Agaricus bisporus, but Pleurotus eryngii and ostreatus do well.

BTW: From my tries with cube mycelium (sterile grain spawn on fermented wbs) one is finally growing into the grain, though it took two weeks to adapt. The other one had been covered with fermented straw a few days ago. Now it starts colonizing straw and grain.


Carsten

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OfflineMycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8811093 - 08/22/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

If you want quick LC-type inoculations for your fermented versions, try doing slurry inoculations.  Take a BRF cake of whatever species you want, dump it in a cleaned (preferably sterilized) blender, blend it for a few seconds with just enough water to get a flowing slurry and dump it into the jars you want to inoculate.  There's enough growth there to reduce the chances of contams. 

And yes, doing the whole process in a sterile manner will definitely improve the results. 

All of this (slurry inoculations) information has been discussed here and elsewhere.  Just do a search for more information.

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8818162 - 08/23/08 10:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Mycelio,

How ya doing? :smile:


Yea, I didn't notice your info on temp, thanks.  Yup, LAB and many microbes can go up to around 110F.  Too far over that is the territory of "extremophiles" like "archaea", etc and some harmful microbes too.  AEM is fermented at 110F in the first few hours and then lowered but I keep it at about 90-100F



Quote:

though I am sure the LAB produce lactic acid until it gets too much, even for them. Then the fermentation slows down until you raise the PH or until other microbes take over.




Yup.  :smile:



Quote:

I also thought about a possible symbiosis between LAB and mycelium, but as fermented grain gets colonized slowly, while several species or mushrooms can't grow into it at all, it seems LAB is just food, trying to fight the mycelium. Helper bacteria may be more important for mycorrhizal species.




Do you know what types of mushrooms 'eat' LAB as food?  Does p.cube?  And do you know how they eat them? Can you give me some links so I can do more reading? 

Did I say symbiosis?  I meant synergistic relationship, oops, sorry.  What I mean by helper is that LAB and yeast (etc) can feed upon the proteins and carbs in the grain or WBS, etc.  So by fermenting they are eating the grain in a fashion, which could be beneficial for mycelium in spawn sub.  The mycelium and fungals rely a lot upon proteins, carbs, macro ferts N and K, etc, etc.  The mycelium excretes enzymes which break down the organic matter into usable chemical forms which can then be utilized by the mycelium. (please correct me if I'm wrong, thanks) 

So I hypothesize that LAB, yeast and other BIM (esp nitrogen[N] and potassium[K] fixating bacteria, ala 'nutrient cycle') will offer chemicals via their own action which the mushroom mycelium can utilize.   

Most importantly to me is that in Nature you would never find anything by itself, and I feel it's important to add microbes to spawn and bulk sub, along with casing too.  But it's important to start the spores/LC with microbes so they develop a synergistic relationship they have in Nature...

And LAB loves to break down poo, as does PnSB, etc.  So they should be great to add to H.poo bulk sub.  I'm testing it this run, pasturing field collect H.poo then activating it (see below) and adding about 10% hort grade verm which should required the addition of water so at that point I'll add the AEM (microbes) and FPE :smile:

Another brew I am going to test on bulk sub and casing (not spawn sub) is ACT, it offers the full Soil Food Web, microbial loop and nutrient cycle.  In it will be much LAB and also N and P fixing and probably K fixing fungals and bacteria.

EM/AEM offers "zymogenic balance"[1] and nutrient cycle (especially N cycling), there shouldn't be a real Soil Food Web because there are not any protozoa, etc to eat the bacteria (which often releases N and other chemicals held by the bacteria).

LAB and yeast are 'zymogenic' microbes.


Quote:

Please keep us updated about your experiments!




Definitely.  BTW, I really like your attitude!  I am going to write a new thread soon in Advanced about activating H.poo, vermicompost, compost, etc...after pasteurization...and other fun stuff. 

But I don't want to hijack your excellent thread so I'll start a new one for AEM and FPE stuff.  For example, I'm fermenting an FPE with baby oatmeal powder, hydrolyzed fish, kelp, light malt extract and corn sugar (dextrose) to be used when fermenting grain or WBS and bulk sub and casing too.




Quote:

Do you plan to inoculate from a liquid culture? Spores might not germinate easily on fermented material.




Yea, last week I ordered a magnetic stirrer (6"x6" plate) with some magnetic rods too (one with bands, they get loud but work well).  I also ordered organic plain light malt extract powder and organic corn sugar powder (dextrose source).  This is my first time with LC and p.cube so I'm looking forward to it  :smile:


THanks :smile:



Oh yea, what are your thoughts about moisture content in grain fermented for 2 weeks?  Every tek I've read (for p.cube) warns of over soaking which leads to too much moisture or bursting of grain.  I am planing of fermenting with very active AEM, microbial wise, for only 24 hours.  But I think this should be sufficient as I'll also add Yucca surfactant and that should give enough time for microbes to 'colonize' the grain to prevent harmful microbes, while not offering a full fermentation it should allow skipping of the PC and will infuse beneficial microbes into the grain, etc.


P.S. 
I'm growing Ecuadorians and I'm gonna clone a nice mushroom in LC and then use that to grow with a single clone souce in bulk sub (H.poo) with casing (peat based) and do a side by side grow using microbes/fermentation vs PCing (and super sterile bulk sub and casing).  All variables will be the same (as much as possible) and only difference will be use microbes or no microbes.  All work will be done in sterile room for tighter control and less variables:  Tomorrow I am building a sterile room (out of PVC and 2mil clear plastic) with a Lamar Flow Hood (soon to be a full table with UV-germicidal) and an antechamber.  The Lamar Flow will create a nice positive pressure into the antechamber and out-to the surrounding room. 



Thanks and any thoughts you have are very welcome! :smile:




[1] Zymogenic microbes, Zymogenic Soil/balance, and Zymology info:


Edited by quickpick (08/24/08 12:37 AM)

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Invisiblespacel0rd
anarchohippienerd

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8818621 - 08/24/08 01:37 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

First of all: thanks for sharing this wealth of info quickpick :smile:

Quote:

quickpick said:
Most importantly to me is that in Nature you would never find anything by itself, and I feel it's important to add microbes to spawn and bulk sub, along with casing too.  But it's important to start the spores/LC with microbes so they develop a synergistic relationship they have in Nature...



What microbes are you planning to use? Any idea which ones let the spores germinate? Keep us with the results of your LC experiment. And the others as well. :wink:

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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8818891 - 08/24/08 04:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi Quickpick,


Quote:

Yup, LAB and many microbes can go up to around 110F.  Too far over that is the territory of "extremophiles" like "archaea", etc and some harmful microbes too.  AEM is fermented at 110F in the first few hours and then lowered but I keep it at about 90-100F


Though the thermophiles are interesting too. You may want to read something about aerobic composting for Agaricus bisporus, especially phase 2.


Quote:

Do you know what types of mushrooms 'eat' LAB as food?  Does p.cube?  And do you know how they eat them? Can you give me some links so I can do more reading?


Perhaps all fungi are able to digest microbes. Would make sense, as microbes are everywhere. For species, which mainly digest cellulose and lignin, microbes should be an important source of nitrogen. Other species, which grow on manure are known to feed on microbes.
The mycelium grows hyphae into bacterial colonies and excretes lots of enzymes until the cells break up and molecules can be consumed by the mycelium. I once found a website showing microscope images of Pleurotus ostreatus trapping nematodes and entering bacterial colonies, but I am sorry, right now I can't find it any more.

The benefit I see here is that microbes use up easily available carbohydrates, build up protein, fat, etc. and suppress competitor funghi like mold species. When our mycelium then feeds on the bacteria, I'd say less chemical conversion is required to build up its own tissue from the food.


Quote:

Oh yea, what are your thoughts about moisture content in grain fermented for 2 weeks?  Every tek I've read (for p.cube) warns of over soaking which leads to too much moisture or bursting of grain.  I am planing of fermenting with very active AEM, microbial wise, for only 24 hours.  But I think this should be sufficient as I'll also add Yucca surfactant and that should give enough time for microbes to 'colonize' the grain to prevent harmful microbes, while not offering a full fermentation it should allow skipping of the PC and will infuse beneficial microbes into the grain, etc.


I have never seen kernels burst on soaking, only when simmered or boiled for too long. After fermentation the moisture content appears optimal to me, but too much free water between the kernels should be avoided.


I think it would be a good idea to start separate thread for substrates and LCs with active microbes. This discussion is interesting, but leads us away from the original subject, the use of fermented grain.


Carsten

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8819508 - 08/24/08 10:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey again bro,

Hope your having a great day! :smile:


Quote:

Though the thermophiles are interesting too. You may want to read something about aerobic composting for Agaricus bisporus, especially phase 2.




Yes I agree.  But I haven't used aerobic thermetic composting in years, I switched anaerobic, non-thermetic composting a while back.  It's referred to as "bokashi composting" (uses EM), tons of microbes and much more nutrients left then thermetic composting and  it only takes about 2 months for degradation into humus.  And you can compost meat, fish, dairy, etc!  Once I have more bokashi compost I'm gonna try that as a bulk sub :smile: 

One thing I like about bokashi composting is it doesn't hurt my back, I'm really sick of turning 3 cu ft piles. :smile:




Quote:

Perhaps all fungi are able to digest microbes. Would make sense, as microbes are everywhere. For species, which mainly digest cellulose and lignin, microbes should be an important source of nitrogen. Other species, which grow on manure are known to feed on microbes.
The mycelium grows hyphae into bacterial colonies and excretes lots of enzymes until the cells break up and molecules can be consumed by the mycelium. I once found a website showing microscope images of Pleurotus ostreatus trapping nematodes and entering bacterial colonies, but I am sorry, right now I can't find it any more.




Thanks for the info!  Very interesting!  I'll have to look more into it, neat stuff, thanks.  (note:  I think in my last post I said mycelium  which I meant hyphae :wink: )

AM (arbuscular mycorrhizaes) are also known to trap nematodes with their hyphae, not for consumption but to protect their host plant's roots.  I have a good book with some really nice electron microscope images of this, neat pic! :smile: 

A neat thing to think about is adding dead bacteria to spawn sub, bulk sub, etc.  I have isolated and cultured wild PnSB.  THen I stopped feeding them and after they all die I am going to screen them out...In Japan you can buy tons of dry PnSB, it's used as fish food over there! :smile:  (PnSB: 'Purple non-sulfur bacteria' are a N fixing bacteria and heart of EM)




Quote:

The benefit I see here is that microbes use up easily available carbohydrates, build up protein, fat, etc. and suppress competitor funghi like mold species.




Yes I would agree.  And as bacteria will count in the millions per square inch of 'good' compost and H.poo (I assume), there is plenty of life in the microherd.  Im curious which genus/family of bacteria are feed upon?



Quote:

When our mycelium then feeds on the bacteria, I'd say less chemical conversion is required to build up its own tissue from the food.




Quite possibly, if they are 'consumning' the bacteria (esp N and K fixing) like protozoa do then they would be also consuming the chemicals held by the bacteria too (e.g. N and K).  But, the end results is the same as if they 'consume' H.poo (for example), the hyphae  excretes the enzymes to break down the H.poo into base chemicals of N and K (for example), which the hyphae then utilize...the question I guess is which method required the least work?  That is what is probably preferred by any particular mushroom which is able to 'consume' bacteria...the path of least resistance.

Another neat point is that when the mycelium 'consume' bacteria they should probably leave 'unconsumed' chemicals from the consumption of the bacteria (for example N).  This is how it happens when protozoa eat bacteria, so I assume a similar situation when hyphae break down the bacteria for mycelium consumption.  If so, then the surrounding hyphae and other microbes will benefit as they can consume the chemicals left over.  (btw, what exactly are the steps?  Do hyphae or mycelium do the 'consuming'?).

And when microherds are attacked (e.g. by the hyphae trying to trap/consume them) many genus and family will react by getting bigger (in quantity), which of course provides more food for the mycelium (e.g. "microbial loop")

Personally I think it's a good mix of both, as in Nature sometimes the mushroom will have more access to microherds and sometimes more access to organic matter...


Quote:

I have never seen kernels burst on soaking, only when simmered or boiled for too long. After fermentation the moisture content appears optimal to me, but too much free water between the kernels should be avoided.




Good point about the simmering.  And grain (ie. rye berries) would probably be a 'safer' bet then WBS in terms of a lower moisture content, and more air space (via larger size then WBS), along with the ability to soak for few weeks, nice!  I guess I can let it ferment for a few weeks instead of 24 hours in that case.  Longer is definitely better, to a degree.



Quote:

I think it would be a good idea to start separate thread for substrates and LCs with active microbes. This discussion is interesting, but leads us away from the original subject, the use of fermented grain.




Yes I agree and I apologize if I strayed a bit off topic...



Thanks man!  Good discussions! :smile:

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Offlinembrown3391
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8819515 - 08/24/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps this experiment could be applied to improve sterility even with pressure cooked jars. One could add lactic acid purchased from a brewer's store to their culture. any thoughts?

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
    #8819744 - 08/24/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey mbrown3391,

Yes I've been thinking about it.  PC the jar, then use a syringe to inject BIM (or AEM or AEM/FPE mix) into the jars.  Then incubate for a week or two (80-90F is fine), and then inject with LC (or maybe even spores), use g2g, etc.  But it would be important to inject with very active BIM or AEM, with a very active herd because you wouldn't want to inject a lot, maybe 0.5-1cc to keep moisture down in PC'd jar (shaking would be helpful for distribution).  This would offer the benefit of PCing off harmful (and some beneficial) microbes and then the injection of BIM or AEM will offer beneficial microbes, which also ferment (in a fashion) the spawn sub like grain, WBS, BRF cake (PF tek should work with this too), etc.

And you can't buy LAB at a brew shop, you can get the yeast though, to buy LAB you need to order from microbe bank (I can give you links if your interested).  But, you don't want a mono-culture, you want a consortia.  You want as many different types of microbes as you can get, and by fermentation LAB will naturally be the most prevalent in BIM (in most cases) and AEM has a lot of LAB.  If your going to purchase something you should buy EM mother culture and ferment some into AEM. Very easy and proven results and you KNOW exactly what beneficial microbes you are adding to the PC'd jar: LAB, PnSB and yeast (brewers 'ale' yeast).  These are also the microbes generally most prevalent in Nature as 'decomposer's' and fermenters, ala "zymology".

It would probably be wise to clone a mushroom or mushrooms which preform better on fermented grain (or your choice of spawn sub) vs other musrhooms from a multi-spore grow.  Then use those clones for future grows.

HTH :smile:

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8819799 - 08/24/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi spacel0rd,


Quote:

First of all: thanks for sharing this wealth of info quickpick




No problem :smile:  I too am enjoying this discussion, Mycelio is a smart person!




Quote:

Quote:

quickpick said:
Most importantly to me is that in Nature you would never find anything by itself, and I feel it's important to add microbes to spawn and bulk sub, along with casing too.  But it's important to start the spores/LC with microbes so they develop a synergistic relationship they have in Nature...




What microbes are you planning to use? Any idea which ones let the spores germinate?




I am using AEM which contains:
  • LAB(s)
  • Saccharomyces cerevisiae (brewers 'ale' yeast)
  • PnSB(s)
  • Bacillus subtilis var. natto (natto)
  • Bifidobacterium(s)
  • Streptococcus thermophilus
 

But if a BIM is used you would have a wider range of microbes and fungals too (in most cases), though I prefer AEM as it's been proven and I know it's all beneficial microbes.

As to which ones 'let the spores germinate' I have no idea but I assume they all do.  As long as they are considered 'beneficial' microbes they shouldn't harm spores as they live fine with other spores (like from AM and other lower fungals).

HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/24/08 11:50 AM)

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OfflineSprings
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8820362 - 08/24/08 02:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ive had a few grain jars soaking in jars with different dilutions of em for over 2 months, there has been no change for over a month. They smell sweet and not off. I plan to inoculate with sterile eryngii grain spawn when I get the chance. If they colonize I plan to fruit from the jar.
I'm hoping the em microbes have made the grains nutrition more directly available, resulting in faster fruiting compared to sterile whole grains. I think the whole grain digestion leads to constipation, and by letting "good microorganisms organize(GMO)"nutrition more suited for mycelial digestion, thus quicker fruits.

I only have one gourmet species cultured, p.eryngii, I also have a print of p.ostreatus from north central canada, and a dry wild fruit from eastern canada, also ostreatus. I'm hoping to aquire as many variations of as many species as possible, and try and cultivate them using friendly mircobes(LAB,EM,BIM,etc) aswell as the traditional style and nontraditional(wood alternatives with respectable b/e's, focusing on sugercane baggase, hemp straw and chips, corn cobs, alfalfa, worm castings etc)
From what I hear the "75" is the shiitake to get so thats my next move.

Peace

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
    #8820527 - 08/24/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Springs,

Whats up man?  How are you?  This is gjo from the other site.



Quote:

Ive had a few grain jars soaking in jars with different dilutions of em for over 2 months, there has been no change for over a month. They smell sweet and not off. I plan to inoculate with sterile eryngii grain spawn when I get the chance. If they colonize I plan to fruit from the jar.




Cool, good luck!  What types of dilutions are you using?  What is the pH?  Do you know the starting pH of the EM?  Any yeast build up on surface of water?



Quote:

I'm hoping the em microbes have made the grains nutrition more directly available, resulting in faster fruiting compared to sterile whole grains. I think the whole grain digestion leads to constipation, and by letting "good microorganisms organize(GMO)"nutrition more suited for mycelial digestion, thus quicker fruits.




Nice.  I didn't know you where using EM and mushrooms, did you use AEM too or just EM?  Is it from EMRO or SCD?  hahaha "GMO"...I like! :smile: 

And yea I'm pretty sure the microbes will make the grain more available to hyphae, like in soil.  If not by the release of chemicals from their fermentation of grain then prolly by how the fermentation effects the structure of the grain the availability of it's carbs, proteins, etc.



Quote:

I only have one gourmet species cultured, p.eryngii, I also have a print of p.ostreatus from north central canada, and a dry wild fruit from eastern canada, also ostreatus. I'm hoping to aquire as many variations of as many species as possible, and try and cultivate them using friendly mircobes(LAB,EM,BIM,etc) aswell as the traditional style and nontraditional(wood alternatives with respectable b/e's, focusing on sugercane baggase, hemp straw and chips, corn cobs, alfalfa, worm castings etc)
From what I hear the "75" is the shiitake to get so thats my next move.




EXCELLENT!!! :smile:  I'm there with yea, but for now I'm staying with p.cube.  I'm really interesteed.

Soon I want to branch into gourmet as I have a few friends who are chefs.


Later bro :smile:

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8828060 - 08/25/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey all,

I've got some nice info about p.cubes preferred pH, and that of other mushrooms too, and guess what?  (well I'm sure a lot of you already know)  That p.cube and other mushrooms prefer an acidic to neutral medium/substrate, optimal pH for p.cube is in range of 4.0-4.6.  That is great as that is what the pH of most fermented grains should level out around, or a bit higher around 5ish, still great though.

As far as I know a higher pH is suggested in the theory that it will ward off contaminates, not because that's what the mushroom prefers.  But by fermenting with beneficial microorganisms we achieve a low pH and low chance of contamination.

And as p.cube prefers an acidic pH of 4ish the fermentation of grain, WBS, etc should work for inoculation, esp from LC, agar, Mycelio's method, etc...maybe even spores.  And Mycelio's has shown it works with other mushrooms...

Another neat point in regards to pH is a mushroom's reaction which can be similar to 'nutrient lockout' in higher plants.  If the medium is not in the correct range, depending upon the medium, it can cause some nutrients to be unavailable to the mushroom because the hyphae/mycelium can't utilize it due in part to pH effects upon the mushroom's metabolism.  And worse is that a nutrient lockout of one nutrient can effect the mushrooms metabolism processes and hence external uptake of other nutrients. 



OK, enough talk, here's the science:


"The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture by Psilocybe cubensis"
by P.Catalfomo and V.E. Typler, Jr., 1963

This PDF is a great source of hard data on macro and micro nutrients, tryptophan, glucose, thiamine, ph, etc, a good read!  I couldn't find it anywhere but then I found that our very own "Anno" had uploaded it as a set of GIF images in this post.  So I downloaded the images and made a PDF out of them for the community :smile:

You can download the PDF I compressed into a file called "ph and nutrients.rar" from HERE  It's a US file sharing site, I can't attach files to posts so I used "Flyshare" upload site.  Just download the rar file and use 7zip or Win-RAR to decompress it with this passwordquickpick

Quote:

Maximum production of both mycelium (dry weight) and psilocybin (percentage basis) occurred in acid medium, and both underwent a decline as the pH of the medium began to rise after the ninth day of fermentation.  It was noted that psilocybin was produced during the most active growth period of the organism.

...AND...

Maximum yields of both psilocybin and mycelium occurred in the acid pH range (4.0-4.6).  However, the acidic nature of the medium does not preclude the possibility that the internal pH of the organism is maintained at a different level by an efficient buffering system.



 





"Mushroom Biology"
By Philip G. Miles, Shu-Ting Chang, p.40, 1997


Quote:

4. Nutritional Requirements For Growth

...A generalization is that most species of mushrooms grow best on a slightly acidic medium.  A pH range for growth from pH 4 to pH 8 is common although there are species which may grow farther toward the ends of the pH scale.  Both oxygen tension and pH have effects on metabolic processes and thus upon the ability of the mushrooms to use certain substances for their nutritional needs.




:smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/25/08 11:02 PM)

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8828092 - 08/25/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Oh yea,

I just checked on some bokashi I've been fermenting for like 4 months and it's smells perfect, and looks good to, texture and moisture wise.  I think the moisture may be perfect for injecting, maybe a little on the dry side.  This bokashi will have a majority of LAB as I only used organic black strap molasses as a food sources (besides the wheat but PnSB doesn't like that).

I'm gonna fill a pre-PC'd jar 3/4 full with bokashi and inject 2cc of spores of Ecuador into it.  I'll also do the same with LC of Ecuador (both multi-spore).

I should have it injected within two weeks or so.  Fingers crossed :smile:

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OfflineSprings
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8831076 - 08/26/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey quickpick,

When you do your bokashi jar experiments can you also add some bokashi to some grain and then sterilize? I wouldnt add alot. I like the idea of using bokashi in place of the normal bran supplements. We're going to eperiment with our bokashi as well.


Im about to start soaking and fermenting 6 jars of oat's, 3 of which will be ph adjusted before I g2g.

Should be interesting.

peace

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
    #8831563 - 08/26/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey bro,

sure, what %, like 2? 5? Less?

What pH are you guys going go to adjust to?  And what are you guys using to adjust the pH?

Yes, bokashi seems promising.  I'll mix some bokashi at a 1:1 with distilled water (pre-tested for pH) and put on mag stir plate with a mag stir rod to mix it up...and let 'er run for like 20 min.  Then test the pH, this may give a useful indication of my bokashi's pH.  It maybe be around 5ish, I would be happier if it was lower than 5.

later man :smile:

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
    #8831589 - 08/26/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What about PCing some liquid from your bokashi and/or other ferments and/or worm juice....and use the liquid to make either agar plates (good for visuals) or an LC?

Well I'm going to try with worm juice and soak juice-don't have a bokashi as such.

It might prepare the mycelium to handle other organisms more quickly than more simple nutrient formulas.


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: worowa]
    #8834904 - 08/27/08 08:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Guys,


let us please discuss those fascinating ideas in a separate thread and keep this one free for subjects, which are directly related to fermented grain.

I'm happy to have initiated or catalyzed all this, but for people reading this thread it gets hard to find on-topic information. Also when searching, people will not expect to find this stuff here.

Perhaps we start one general thread, collecting ideas, adding our knowledge and then branch out new ones, whenever we start real experiments.


Thanks, Carsten

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8835086 - 08/27/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Mycelio,

Sure, I'll start a new thread in a bit for general fermenting and microbe talk.  But, IMO, all this talk is on topic in this thread.  The sub your fermenting doesn't matter as much as how your fermenting it.  Most of this talk is about fermenting and microbes, the why's and how's, which IMO is required for ppl to have the necessary background knowledge to understand why they are doing what they are doing, not just how to do it.

I don't think there is too big of a difference about fermenting grain vs WBS vs some other subs, the important part is the process of fermentation and the microbes in use.

I apologize if we are mucking up your thread with talk about bokashi.  I thought you wanted to talk about, or were interested in bokashi discussion in this thread, I misunderstood, sorry.

My only question is where should I start a 'general discussion' thread about fermenting and microbes?  I requested that a new sub-forum be created but RR said to post in Advanced.  However, I get the feeling he doesn't want discussion threads in Advanced, he wants threads after experimenting.  So where should I start new threads?  Surely not in 'Cultivation', that place is just crazy with none-sense threads and too many Q's asked 1000 times.  I'll PM RR and ask him what he'd like me to do.

Thanks, and again I apologize for my part in mucking up your thread, I hope you having a nice day! :smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/27/08 09:47 AM)

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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8835335 - 08/27/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi Quickpick,


no need to be sorry! I am extremely interested in bokashi and fermentation of various substrates. Just thought we talk about too many subjects and better open up a new thread here under advanced. Then we can link from here to it and back.

Regarding another subforum, in my opinion it is too early. We can collect ideas, start several experiments on liquid and solid substrates and then post tutorials. A couple of new threads won't hurt the forum.


Carsten

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