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OfflineP.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8785364 - 08/17/08 03:53 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Wh... Who said add bleach?
I was suggesting it only in the inital soak, to yes "kill off unwanted contaminations" previous to this experiment where you will be selectively Contaminating...
7.0Ph is fine, for your everyday run of the mill substrate... and the mushroom mycelium's metabolites will eventually lower the substrate Ph anyway, yet i always see my shit contam at the 3.8-4.2 mark, so... I think your wrong about that, as far as "normal" substrate goes.

Or thats how i see it anyway

I dont think i will ever understand whats happening here, and really, i dont want too, unless i want to make beer or some shit, this has no place in my mycological experience's...
The Ph of my agar is 6.8-7.0
LC's 7.0
most of my substrate 6.2-7.0
I think i will stick with neutral, and not have any smelly ass, selectively contaminated shit sitting around in my house, Unless its Clavicepts;)


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
    #8785394 - 08/17/08 04:23 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hi P.Menace,

I'm not trying to upset you, I'm only posting how it works.  I think we are talking about apples and oranges:

What is being done here is anaerobic fermentation of grain by LAB, yeast and other BIM.  The liquid will have a low Ph by the nature of the fermentation process and it needs to be below a Ph of 4 to preclude harmful microbes growing in the liquid during fermentation and after.  It's not about the Ph of the grain after fermentation, it's about the Ph of the liquid.  But like Mycelio said, it takes his mushrooms a few days to acclimate to a low Ph.  (though I haven't grown any mushrooms this way...yet! :wink: )

The idea here is the substrate is full of LAB and yeast so they out-compete harmful microbes and the low Ph is ok, even in the inoculation substrate (ex. grain).



Quote:

I was suggesting it only in the inital soak, to yes "kill off unwanted contaminations" previous to this experiment where you will be selectively Contaminating...




Thats a good idea but we need the "endogenous" enzymes and microbes.  Basically that means the native microbes and enzymes on the substance, referring to those on inside of the grain in this case.  The the LAB and other IMO come from mostly from the inside but also the outside of the grain, this is what facilitates the fermentation.


Do I help make things any more clear?  I hope so, don't give up, there is a learning curve but once you do it once your all good.  And imagine the benefits, not to mention that mushroom will prolly grow better with BIM as many microbes are symbiont or at least have a synergistic relationship to fungals, especially bacterias.


HTH :smile:

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8785396 - 08/17/08 04:24 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

hey spacel0rd,

How are ya? :smile:


Quote:

So I'm confused if yeast is okay or you want to get rid of it.




Well Mycelio has had sucess and he/she also had yeast (I'd bet) so yea, yeast should be fine, it's natural.  But, note that Mycelio removed the yeast hyphae and output at the top, this is very wise.  It limits the yeast in the liquid, if you don't remove the white stuff it can take over....like the BLOOB!!! lol :smile:



Quote:

And is submerged in water anaerobic enough? Anyways wiht whit rice in water there virtually is no surface to scrape something away. Good to see this topic is kept alive.




No that is not anaerobic enough, it should to be very anaerobic.  Are you using white rice?  I would use something with nutrients like organic brown rice or organic grain 'berries' (wheat, rye, etc).


HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 04:25 AM)

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
    #8785404 - 08/17/08 04:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Springs!

Whats up? :smile:  Thought I would toss my 2cents in this thread.  Nice to see you here.  You get my PM at the other place?


Quote:

It may help to start a culture on a plate with a lower ph so the mycelium is used to the low ph environ.




Thats a great idea.  Soon come I'll try to out! :smile:

later bro,

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
    #8785428 - 08/17/08 04:45 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

smell...

A good fermented smell should be a little sweet/sour and a little pickle like with a bit of earthiness (if molasses is added).  It should not smell bad or rancid.

HTH :smile:

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8785486 - 08/17/08 05:17 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

nice quad post.


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GOD IS DEAD!! AND NOOO ONEE CARES! IF THERE IS A HELL! I'LL SEEEE YOUUU THERE!!



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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8785499 - 08/17/08 05:30 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Another option: "Bokashi"

It's a Japanese term which loosely means a BIM fermented and dried substance, usually plant matter.  You can use BIM, or preferably EM which you ferment into AEM which you then use (or BIM)  to create "bokashi". 

Today Bokashi is made with wheat bran and AEM with blk strap molasses.  The resulting bokshi has a ph of about 5 and is LOADED with LAB, yeast (brewers "ale" yeast) and has some PnSB too.  If made correctly (eg. very anaerobically) it is free of contaminates and would prolly make a great inoc sub and even as part of a bulk substrate or casing mix.

I ferment my own bokashi and when it's done it reeks like pickles and sweet/sours, lol.  When done it has  a great moisture content of around 40% I would guess.  This would serve as an excellent inoc sub IMVHO and it's ph is 5ish :smile:  It maybe wise to add it to bulk sub and maybe casing too, just for the possible symbiont and/or synergistic relationship between the  microbes and fungals being cultivated.

You can dry out boakshi and it's still good, when moistened the microbes once again become active, but an anaerobic environment is best.

You can purchase bokash form ERMO-USA or SCD-World.  For this purpose the EMRO-USA would be a better choice as it's has less types of microbes.  Or just buy some "EM-1", the EM "mother culture" from which you can make a 1st stage frement into AEM, waking up the microbes and extending the use of the EM. 

Once you ferment AEM you use that to make a basic boakshi with like 1:1:20  (AEM:molasses:water) [I'll have to double check my figures] and mix that into the what bran until moist and until it holds a ball shape when squeezed and released, yet not too dense(like soil).  The water needs to be about 110F,yup, hot!  The addition of 5 tsp of salt[1] per 5 gallons of water is wise, as is some type of mineral powder like B.caly (at health food store),or "EM-clay".  Once everything is mixed and the what bran is really hot put it in a thick black "lawn and leaf" bag (2-3mil) and twist hell out of the bag...you want to remove as much air as you can, if you have a vacuum sealer that would be great!  After the what bran ferments for 3-6 weeks it's ready for use as long as it smells sweet/sour and like pickles.

However, bokashi can be make with any number of plant based items, leafs, grain, etc.  It should work OK with grain 'berries', WBS, etc but that means you may need a vacuum sealer to remove the air from between the larger 'berries', seeds, etc.  If so a spawn bag would work perfectly (thought any container should work): 

  1. Fill with moist un-fermented bokshi (from grain 'berries', WBS, BRF, what bran, etc)

  2. Cover the 'breather' holes and injector ports with a layer of alc wipe and then tape on outside

  3. Vacuum seal and wait a few weeks

  4. Once fermented remove tape, clean the injector port and 'breather' holes

  5. Inject away!  Or open the bag do a g2g or a wedge, etc, etc.

  6. Cross fingers!


...OR...

  1. Order Bokashi from EMRO-USA

  2. Moisten

  3. Place in container

  4. Inoc, g2g, etc

  5. Cross fingers, lol :smile:





[1] Celtic sea salt or Himalayan fossilized sea salt (over 250 million years old!)


HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 05:31 AM)

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8785565 - 08/17/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Quickpick,


I agree to most of your comments, only a few things:

Regarding yeast... Sure I can't rule out some yeast growing in there, but the main work is done by LAB as the sour smell and the acidity by lactic acid tells me. If more yeast grows on top, I prefer to remove it before an alcoholic smell appears. I do not want too much alcohol to be in there, because it would later prevent the mycelium from growing or require an additional heating step. Usually the yeast layer does not return after removing it once.

(edit: I see we agree on this point. )


In my experience you only need to cover the grain with tap water to start an anaerobic fermentation. Also adding molasses is not required. You surely need molasses for starting EM cultures on plant material, but by using grain, we already have more sugars and carbohydrates than the LAB can process. Adding too much food would raise the contamination risk after fermentation.


@spacel0rd
Just add more water.
Quote:

- Fill jars half with the cooked grain.
- Add water until filled up to three quarters.



For the cubes... Tried some nine days ago and it won't eat the grain. It seems to be disgusted and only grows, where it does not touch the fermented stuff. Same effect with Agaricus bisporus mycelium. Adding fermented straw should help.


Carsten

Edited by Mycelio (08/17/08 06:41 AM)

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8785600 - 08/17/08 06:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

hey Mycelio,

:smile:  How are you?



Quote:


Regarding yeast... Sure I can't rule out some yeast growing in there, but the main work is done by LAB as the sour smell and the acidity by lactic acid tells me. If more yeast grows on top, I prefer to remove it before an alcoholic smell appears. I do not want too much alcohol to be in there, because it would later prevent the mycelium from growing or require an additional heating step. Usually the yeast layer does not return after removing it once.




Yes I agree about it not returning very fast after it's removed, but trust me, the yeast is still there.  A more anaerobic process is better for slowing yeast and encouraging more LAB.

Oh, and I think you are giving LAB too much importance in this case, yeast to little and likewise, too little importance to other BIM.  LAB is very important yes, but so is yeast, etc.  And the enzymes emitted by the microbes are the things doing a lot of the work.




Quote:

In my experience you only need to cover the grain with tap water to start an anaerobic fermentation.




You must have good water and very soft water, most ppl have chlorine and the dreaded chloramines to deal with.  You can use tap water but you should def be using a more anaerobic process, that is what you are really doing, using anaerobic fermentation. 

Any o2 in the head space will add o2 to the water and slow the fermentation.  It's best to use an anaerobic process to encourage fermentation and inhibit yeast growth of hyphae and output (eg. biomass).  Oh, and you may want to use distilled water, it's a much better microbial base than tap.


Quote:

Also adding molasses is not required.  You surely need molasses for starting EM cultures on plant material, but by using grain, we already have more sugars and carbohydrates than the LAB can process. Adding too much food would raise the contamination risk after fermentation.





Yea, molasses isn't required but it's prolly a good idea, especially considering you do not have a carbon food source (eg. carbohydrate from sugar like molasses) and they LAB, yeast, etc, love carbon.  The molasses encourages the LAB and yeast, it's a food source for them.  A few weeks or a few months is too long for fermentation IMO, the microbes will run out of food.  Fermentation and Ph drop should only take 3-7 days under optimal conditions and 2-3 weeks under less than optimal conditions.

The sugars in the grain are not nearly as immediately available as those from molasses.  You are fermenting the grain and feeding the microbes with molasses this way.  Faster LAB and yeast growth so they can out-compete other microbes faster.  Another option is adding milk, ala LAB IMO culture teks.

Oh and the BIM (many microbes are at work here not just LAB) will either use up the extra molasses of the fungals should.  But by adding 0.025-0.05% molasses to water you will not be adding 'too' much. (IMVHO)

Thanks again and later :smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 07:00 AM)

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OfflineP.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8786839 - 08/17/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Not that I think i really need to know, but what does "LAB and BIM" stand for?


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
    #8786909 - 08/17/08 01:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hi bro :smile:


LAB = lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus)

BIM = Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms (in this case)


have a great day! :smile:

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8786934 - 08/17/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for clearing that up:D i couldnt seem to locate the acronyms...


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8787351 - 08/17/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Quickpick,

Quote:

Yea, molasses isn't required but it's prolly a good idea, especially considering you do not have a carbon food source (eg. carbohydrate from sugar like molasses) and they LAB, yeast, etc, love carbon.  The molasses encourages the LAB and yeast, it's a food source for them.  A few weeks or a few months is too long for fermentation IMO, the microbes will run out of food.  Fermentation and Ph drop should only take 3-7 days under optimal conditions and 2-3 weeks under less than optimal conditions.


:confused:
At room temperature grain fermentation and PH drop will start within 2 or 3 days. I recommend to let it run for a couple of days so the bacteria will be well established. The whole process stops after ca. 2 weeks because of the PH, not for food reasons, there's no lack of carbon at all. The proof is that you can add CaCO3 to raise the PH. Then the fermentation continues vigorously.

Quote:

The sugars in the grain are not nearly as immediately available as those from molasses.  You are fermenting the grain and feeding the microbes with molasses this way.  Faster LAB and yeast growth so they can out-compete other microbes faster.  Another option is adding milk, ala LAB IMO culture teks.


Perhaps, but I don't think the process needs to be improved.

Quote:

Oh and the BIM (many microbes are at work here not just LAB) will either use up the extra molasses of the fungals should.  But by adding 0.025-0.05% molasses to water you will not be adding 'too' much. (IMVHO)


I agree that a low concentration of molasses would not do any harm, but I still do not see a reason for adding it.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy about your input and knowledge, but please run a test or a comparison, before you tell people how to do it better.

Did you ever try inoculating bokashi fermented material?


Greetings, Carsten

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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8788560 - 08/17/08 09:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hi Mycelio,  :smile:


Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I am happy about your input and knowledge, but please run a test or a comparison, before you tell people how to do it better.




IMO it's not really about running a test run, as that doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand.  Fermenting via LAB and yeast can be done as you've described, and I'm not saying it can't.  And I've said many times that I'm very impressed with what you've done.  But that said, and in no disrespect, I believe the process can be improved.  It's not that you did anything wrong, it's just that things are not optimal in my personal opinion.

If you increase temperature, increase anaerobic environment and add immediately available food for the microbes you should get a better fermentation, that's just how fermentation works; I'm not just making this stuff up, I promise. :wink:

Try it:  Do a side by side with how I describe and how your doing it, see what you like better.

One idea I like is getting more variation and higher counts of microbes in the fluid and into/onto the substrate.  More microbes offer a better chance of some of them being symbiont or having a synergistic relationship with the cultivated fungals.  In Nature many fungals have "helper" bacteria and other fungals which may assist the cultivated fungals in breaking down organic matter (via enzymes) so the fungals can feed. 

For example:
LAB is often found in dung breaking it down, and are p.cubes; maybe LAB is a helper to p.cubes.  More research is needed.

To get more variation and higher counts of microbes, especially LAB and yeast, a higher temp is very helpful (less so is the addition of a carbohydrate and removal of o2).  The temp of 80F is about as low as I would want to go.  If you do nothing else then I would suggest you put your  jars in a warm place (80-100F), this should speed Ph drop and produce a stronger fermentation.  I try to keep my water at 85-90F because this is in the ideal range for fermentation.



Quote:

After a week or two, the PH fell from 7 to 4 and the grain is ready.




The initial Ph drop from X to 4 would generally take 2-5 days with optimal conditions.  And then continue to ferment once the Ph has stabilized.

Here's a quote from a buddy, I stole it but I don't he'll mind:
(he's trying to culture wild LAB and yeast, not ferment the millet)
Quote:


Quote:

Person XXX said:
a few days ago I filled a jar half-full with millet then 3/4 full with water

I rinsed the next day and added more fresh water up to 3/4 full then put a lid on and put the jar up in the cupboard [where it's warm] for a few days
in 3 days the pH dropped from 7 to 3.9

I looked at it under the microscope and there was a whole lot of bacterial activity also there was some white stuff forming on top so I took a piece of that and looked at it under the scope and it showed some very healthy yeast growth so the millet looks like a good source of some wild lactobacilli and yeast stay tuned for more random experiments










Quote:

At room temperature grain fermentation and PH drop will start within 2 or 3 days.




Yes I agree but what do you consider room temp?  And what temp is the water?  Hot water speeds the growth of the microbes, the same thing happens in ACT with warmer water (as long as DO is ok).  And it's important to point out this is only the initial Ph drop, Ph should continue dropping until it stabilizes due to optimal Ph.   

I thought in your fist post you said you let it ferment for a few weeks?  The initial Ph drop should happen in first few days.




Quote:

I recommend to let it run for a couple of days so the bacteria will be well established.




The whole fermentation process to, and past the point of Ph stability (around <3.5 to 4) usually takes 3-14 days depending upon circumstances and methods.  After the initial Ph drop fermentation should continue until the food is used up or conditions are not ideal. 

Here's a link I think is on-topic:
"Using the ordinary to cultivate the mysterious power of beneficial indigenous microorganisms"



Quote:

The whole process stops after ca. 2 weeks because of the PH, not for food reasons,




No not really.  Fermentation should continue for as long as there is food and good conditions.  BIMs with high brix content (>11) can ferment for many months after Ph stabilization (though Ph does fluctuate a little).  So called "SAEM" is sometimes fermented for a year or more.

When the ideal Ph is reached fermentation generally continues as long as there is food, it's just that the Ph won't drop any further.  This is so called Ph stabilization and is good.  I allow my basic and quick ferments to continue for a week or so past Ph stabilization.  Heck, when fermenting AEM I've seen it continue to ferment for weeks and weeks after Ph stabilization at a 1:1:20 ratio of EM:molasses:water.



Quote:

there's no lack of carbon at all.




The carbon I'm referring to is a kind which is immediately available to many microbes (ex. LAB) as a source of energy: carbohydrates (as sugar).  The LAB and yeast can feed upon the grain but they generally need their enzymes to beak it down first and that's not too efficient.  The enzyme action waiting period may slow the BIM's very important edge to out competent other microbes.

If you use an immediately available source of carbohydrate like organic blk strap molasses your fermentation should be stronger and you should have greater counts of microbes.  Also, by giving the BIM (LAB and yeast in this case) food they love you will help them out compete other, less desirable microbes who don't prefer blk strap molasses.  Organic black strap molasses isn't required but I would suggest it's addition. 

Currently in your method the grain is the microbial food, along with light, other microbes, etc.  And the grain, along with the brew is being fermented by the nature of the processes of BIM's enzyme breakdown of the grain so it can be used as food for the BIM. 

But, you may want to allow the BIM to ferment the brew (and the grain) by using molasses as the microbial food.  This way you should get a better fermentation of the grain and more infusion of BIM.



Quote:

The proof is that you can add CaCO3 to raise the PH. Then the fermentation continues vigorously.




Yes that's a good point.  But what that shows is the microbes wish to return to their ideal Ph of <3.5 to <4 (or about).  Once they drop the Ph to that level they should continue to ferment but they won't drop the Ph any further in most cases.

Oh, and be careful with use of chemicals around microbes.  For example:
Anything over 3% phosphoric acid (to total water) will kill the BIM.  At 3% p.acid acts as a stabilizer for hydrolyzed fish which means the BIM and enzymes are dormant or inactivated, helps prevent purification of the fish.  Once the hydrolyzed fish is diluted into water the enzymes could become active again.



Quote:

Quote:

quickpick said:
The sugars in the grain are not nearly as immediately available as those from molasses.  You are fermenting the grain and feeding the microbes with molasses this way.  Faster LAB and yeast growth so they can out-compete other microbes faster.  Another option is adding milk, ala LAB IMO culture teks.




Perhaps, but I don't think the process needs to be improved.




Cool :stoned:  If your happy and getting good results then I'm stoked for ya.  But IMO, there is room for improvement, and I'm sure my ideas have flaws... 

I haven't put enough thought into it yet...



Quote:

Did you ever try inoculating bokashi fermented material?




Not yet.  But I have some in my back room I've been fermenting for a few months, Ph should be about 5.  And I have some SCD-World EM Plus (extra PnsB) and I'm gonna extended it into a AEM which I'll then turn into a "FPE" (Fermented Plant Extract) by adding organic baby oatmeal crystals and fermenting further.  Oatmeal is a fungal activator in brews like ACT and you can 'activate' vermicompost with oatmeal for a few weeks to get a nice count of fugals, hyphae, etc.  I'll use the FPE (which has LAB, PnSB, yeast, etc) to ferment rye berries and finch seed (independently).

And I'm getting the 'Quezon' as my freebie so I'll use that to experiment with! :smile:


Things I'm gonna test this month:
(2cc per quart jar)


  • Inoc into fresh wheat bran bokashi

  • Inoc into FPE fermented rye

  • Inoc into FPE fermented finch

  • Inoc into AEM fermented rye

  • Inoc into AEM fermented finch seed



Thanks for the inspiration and idea to mix fermentation and fungal cultivation! :smile:  :thumbup:

Thoughts???

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8788574 - 08/17/08 09:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Mycelio,

:smile:


I was thinking about making the environment more anaerobic and while that is preferred for fermentation it would kill or set dormant many obligate aerobes and lightly facultative aerobes.  And because the inoc will have air it's probibally good to have aerobic microbes (even if only facultative).  I still think keeping the water 80-95F is a good idea and adding 0.025% (or less) organic black strap molasseses maybe a good idea too.

I attached a PDF which is kinda basic but I thought is was useful for it's pics and good info about microbes, LAB, etc.  I hope you find it useful :smile:

"13 Steps in industrial Fermentation"


thanks for a good discussion and thought! :smile:

Edited by quickpick (08/17/08 09:32 PM)

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8788587 - 08/17/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

humm.

how do I attach a PDF?

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OfflineP.Menace
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8788610 - 08/17/08 09:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

click the "id like to attach files or Preview this post"


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
    #8806446 - 08/21/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

hey Mycelio, can you give us a break down for your straw fermentation techniques.

What amounts of grain and straw have you fermented at one time, in one vessel?

What do you think about using fermented grains to jump start unfermented grains, like a grain to grain, and  a portion of liquid aswell perhaps. Much like using a portion of sour dough starter.

You mentioned trying to ferment a few different materials in a past post, what were your results? Do you think lactobacillus could be used with wood dust or chips?
[url=http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:fTYEw74Ao-sJ:www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2005/fpl_2005_yang001.pdf+lactobacillus+wood+mold+inhibition&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca]Patent describing LAB to inhibit mold on wood[/url]

Peace

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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8807082 - 08/21/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi Springs


Quote:

can you give us a break down for your straw fermentation techniques.


My method for fermenting straw is almost identical to grain. Just have it covered by water and wait. It should start creating bubbles after ca. two days and go on for a week or two until the sugars are used up. Final PH is around 6. You don't need to wait for the fermentation to end by itself, you can use fermented straw four or five days after starting. Press out as much water as possible with bare hands and inoculate.
By now I only fermented straw pellets. Ordinary straw might ferment slower. When the pellets are fermenting, the whole stuff gets foamy and rises, so be sure to leave enough space and move it daily, so the straw can sink under water again.


Quote:

What amounts of grain and straw have you fermented at one time, in one vessel?


I do grain in small jars, like 500 ml or smaller. When fermenting more, I use several jars.
For straw I use a 10 l plastic bucket, but never filled it more than half.


Quote:

What do you think about using fermented grains to jump start unfermented grains, like a grain to grain, and  a portion of liquid aswell perhaps. Much like using a portion of sour dough starter.


I tried jump starting the next fermentation by adding a sample from the current one. Works fine, but only saves about one day. A few times I kind of replaced the fermented stuff by fresh material by using all of the fermentation liquid. Almost all of these tries failed quickly and produced a strong vinegar smell. So I recommend to use a tiny amount, like one spoon.


Quote:

You mentioned trying to ferment a few different materials in a past post, what were your results? Do you think lactobacillus could be used with wood dust or chips?


Alfalfa hay and spent coffee grounds ferment well together with straw, but fungal spores didn't get eliminated, so I had a wild coprinus growing afterwards. Sometimes also trichoderma, for example when mixing the fermented material with sterile grain spawn.
Wood chips do not ferment well under water. There is too little sugars and nitrogen. I tried adding fresh flour including bran, but only got slimy and stinky results.
It's possible to mix wood chips with bran and ferment in a pile, which must be big enough to heat up and you have to turn the pile once or twice a week, so it gets enough fresh air. That's the only way I know of. Some sources also recommend urea as additive.


Carsten

Edited by Mycelio (08/21/08 06:09 PM)

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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8807804 - 08/21/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hi Quickpick,


regarding temperatures:
In an earlier post I wrote about higher temps like 35°C (95F) speeding up the process. This also matches the optimum temperature for sourdough. From what I read LAB shall have their upper limit around 45°C (113F).

For the PH drop I think there is a misunderstanding between us. I measured the PH after two weeks, I didn't mean to say it dropped after two weeks.
But perhaps I was wrong saying fermentation stops at some point, though I am sure the LAB produce lactic acid until it gets too much, even for them. Then the fermentation slows down until you raise the PH or until other microbes take over.

I also thought about a possible symbiosis between LAB and mycelium, but as fermented grain gets colonized slowly, while several species or mushrooms can't grow into it at all, it seems LAB is just food, trying to fight the mycelium. Helper bacteria may be more important for mycorrhizal species.


Please keep us updated about your experiments!
Do you plan to inoculate from a liquid culture? Spores might not germinate easily on fermented material.


Carsten

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